FIRST IMPRESSIONS
Gambling on the Retrogrouch - Shimano XT LinkGlide M8130
Know When To Fold 'Em
I've never played poker with any of the NSMB.com crew, but if we all sat down at a table with a stack of the leftover stem caps from installing our EDC tools, I think I'd do okay on side bets in terms of how the rankings would lineup. There at the bottom, in absolute last place, would be yours truly. Apparently, my tells stick out like an albatross at a hummingbird convention.
You'd think this knowledge would be helpful to me, but there I am in a conversation with a friend who knows a few people in the bicycle industry, and they smile suspiciously, look me right in the eye, and ask "when do you think OneUp's wireless dropper post is coming out?" Huh, what? The game is afoot! "Oh," I say "does OneUp have a wireless dropper post coming?"
I actually don't know, but I try to be coy, and, of course, I'm bluffing about as well as a toddler denying they coloured on the walls while holding a marker in each hand. After a bit of back and forth, as it turns out, my friend doesn't have any concrete knowledge either. The question was intended as a conversation opener to what's either the worst-kept secret or best bluff to come down mountain bike design way in years: whether there are there AXS-specific bikes coming out.
It's easy to imagine a cleaner looking AXS-equipped We Are One Arrival without the superfluous cable exit ports.
Once the dropper post and shifting are wireless, why not carry on that so fresh, so clean finish with some vanity routing for the rear brake?
What's an AXS specific bike? (or 'wireless specific' bike as companies introduce competitive products). It's a bike with no cable routing previsions except for the rear brake.
I'm not talking about rigs with such crimes-against-the-bicycle internal cable routing that many riders decide these bikes may as well be dedicated to wireless shifting and dropper posts. I'm referring to bikes that are specifically designed around a lack of braided steel cables, like every bike with through-the-headset routing and, more importantly to the industrial designer, an absence of superfluous holes in the frame.
There are certainly a few retro grouch readers who are thinking to themselves "f*ck that noise, I'll just stick on my own external cable guides, thank you very much", but are they really going to buy the AXS specific frameset? Even if they did, do they represent enough of the target bike buying market that their purchasing decisions overrule the design team?
Nice clean rear brake routing gets easier when designers don't also need to plan for derailleur and dropper post housing in the same bottom bracket territory.
There's a counterargument that it's not that hard to make a beautiful bicycle, like the Arrival, that accommodates cables or wireless. But, progress.
Know When To Hold 'Em
The retro grouch responds to all this wireless specific conjecture by purchasing three more Shimano ZEE 10/11-speed derailleurs for their hoard. Oh, and making certain their holdings include enough HG cassettes that they'll still be pedaling happily when the average drivetrain is sporting fifteen cogs and an asymmetrical chain. But wait, just hold up on ratcheting that last number into the rotary phone!
Let's talk about Shimano's new LinkGlide (LG) before you call your shop and order a lifetime supply of the old stuff. Within my first few shifts of Shimano's XT LG system, I couldn't help but think that it was the 1x group Shimano's design team always wanted to make. Not that I know anyone from their development group, but this has the classically robust Shimano shifting that reminds me of their 10-speed drivetrains. It uses an HG driver, starts with an 11-tooth cog, and there's an overarching focus on improved longevity and shifting performance over the life of a drivetrain.
It makes me feel that from Deore M6100 through to XTR, Shimano's HG+ 12-speed systems and their MicroSpline drivers and 10t cogs were an answer to SRAM's drivetrains, not to the question of what an optimized Shimano 1x drivetrain should be.
I've been a 10/11-speed Shimano Zee holdout for a long time. The M8130 rear derailleur is robust, but the cage is noticeably longer and sits closer to the ground even with my 29" rear wheel installed.
Thanks to the tucked 'Shadow' profile, the derailleur is well protected. I have managed to damage cages on HG+ derailleurs with the same architecture so commenting further will be down to hours on the trail.
The robustly engineered cassette design shifts up and down gears seamlessly while significantly reducing drivetrain wear. LINKGLIDE is the ultimate utility drivetrain that delivers long-lasting performance. - Shimano
The graphic where Shimano explains why the vast majority of riders should be on 10/11-speed LinkGlide (LG) instead of 12-speed HyperGlide+ (HG+).
To the connoisseur of Shimano's legacy 10 & 11-speed systems, this may sound suspicious, as LinkGlide is not backward compatible with other Shimano 11-speed shifting products (of course, neither is the new 12-speed stuff). It does work with my existing HG freehub, crankset, and chainring but the derailleur, shifter, and cassette are all LG-specific. Any 11-speed chain will do. I love my old XT & Zee drivetrain, but I'm sure I won't be the only Zee holdout switching over to LG.
I'm excited to see a new high performance drivetrain using the HG freehub standard, and 11-speed.
The LG700-11 cassette is an XT-level product made in Japan. The range is 11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-36-43-50t.
7 of the 11 cogs attach to an aluminum carrier to shave some of the weight added by the thicker cogs. Claimed weight is under 620 grams.
Know When To Walk Away
It's early days, but if LinkGlide's longevity matches its performance, it will slowly be assimilated onto my family's mountain bikes even though that means walking away from some 10-speed XT and XTR shifters that have years of life left in them.
My thinking is that if I need to replace a worn-out Shimano 10-speed or 11-speed cassette, and I'm due to swap out a battered rear derailleur anyway, I'm only a shifter away from running the new LG system which combines forward compatibility with excellent shifting; an all-around improvement.
LinkGlide is compatible with the HG driver on my wheels and my existing cranksets and chainrings so the upgrade cost when I'm already replacing drivetrain wear items is relatively minimal.
I'm running a full XT drivetrain, but the M8100/8130 chainring is not LG-specific. LinkGlide specific parts are the cassette, derailleur, and shifter.
My Aeffect R cranks and NSBillet ring would have worked fine. Long-term a stainless steel Camo ring could be a LinkGlide-worthy investment.
I'm running a 30t chainring with an 11-speed 11-50T LG cassette and XT M8130 rear derailleur.
Previously on my Marin Rift Zone I was running a 9-speed 11-36t setup with a 26t chainring and Zee derailleur.
Shimano sells the M8130 shifter as I-Spec (whatever generation that is on) or an individual clamp (thank you Shimano). I wish Shimano used a hinged clamp.
Speaking of hinged clamps, I'm not going to be able to resist running LinkGlide with my friction Thumbie. Sorry? Not, sorry.
Is LinkGlide that much better than the legacy stuff? I'm not comparing new to new but the shifting is phenomenal with a classic Shimano feel. I don't much care about wide range cassettes - I've been riding a 26t ring x 11-36t cassette for a while now - but for most folks, the LinkGlide 11-50t is going to be a more desirable range.
I will jump in and note that covering a 39-tooth gap between 11 cogs makes for some large jumps, but between shifting performance and the jumps Shimano has chosen, the system does feel optimized. The jumps are 11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-36-43-50T.
Where does LinkGlide's claimed extra longevity and long term performance come from? In marketing speak it's a focus on riders, not racers. From an engineering perspective, it's more robust cassette teeth with significantly more material at their bases.
This new M8130 rear derailleur looks robust and well-assembled. I opened up the clutch to de-tune it slightly for my shifting preference. I have high expectations so now I just need to drag it into a bunch of rocks.
Note the glob of bright green Shimano grease from the factory. That is the infamous Dumpster Bear turning wrenches in the background. Sadly, he's not returning to the tools professionally.
Shimano is claiming that cassettes have up to three times the durability of their Hyperglide products. The promised drivetrain value is awesome given that the wear items aren't more expensive - the LG500 chain I'm running sells for 33 CAD / 25 USD and the LG700 cassette is about 200 CAD / 150 USD.
I recognize that LinkGlide's focus on torque loads and wear resistance stems from the fact that it's been designed with eMTB survivability in mind. But this lucid paragraph aside, I'm going to keep on pretending that Shimano has taken notice of what customers love about their legacy drivetrains - performance, longevity, and intercompatibility - and have responded with something that's the same and better.
Drivetrain durability is essential for high torque e-bikes and daily riders who might ride in the same gear for months or years at a time. LINKGLIDE provides smooth and decisive shifting that lasts longer than ever before. - Shimano
While I'm on the subject of Shimano, how I wish they'd R&D (rip-off & duplicate) and update this dropper remote they made for the Fox DOSS. The ergonomics are different from anything else and I love it.
Knowing When It's Fun
It's well-known that Shimano is working on a wireless drivetrain. Or at least a semi-wireless drivetrain to integrate with e-bike main batteries. They make e-bike motors and they've patented wireless dropper posts and suspension tech - even though they haven't had a known fork project since Mike King raced an Intense for Haro in 2001. Di2 isn't going anywhere and they already have the aforementioned auto-shifting Di2 LG drivetrain in case you were wondering if bikes will shift themselves in the future.
Heck, self-powered, self-shifting, predictive suspension - the cynics will note that if GPS systems just worked a bit better under a canopy of trees, we'd be on the cusp of mountain bikes that take themselves for a ride and then just upload the accompanying drone footage to their owner's phone.
Oh gods, those hideous cables! But wait, what if I told you that you didn't have to recharge any batteries at all? Almost seems worth it.
And yes, (no bluffing), I'm positive that wireless-specific, and for now that means AXS-specific frames, will be a production reality this year. And so, the smart folks at OneUp, BikeYoke, Fox Racing Shox, and others undoubtedly have wireless dropper posts in the works that they're motivated to release before the folks buying those mountain bicycles are decided on an uppy-downy option.
However, for the cable-loving Luddites amongst us, regardless of where some of Shimano's engineers are headed in terms of bicycles that power and shift themselves, it is sweet to see their top shifting tech still showing up in a classic cable-driven drivetrain. For those who have previously bought into the concept of the 'all XT bike' being the pinnacle balance of performance, cost, and durability, LinkGlide may have built a trail back to that reality.
Let there be no doubt that Shimano is also working on wireless, or semi-wireless, drivetrains and that SRAM currently dominates all discussion in the highest-end drivetrain market thanks to this technology.
It's awesome that Shimano is bringing its best new features to market at a widely attainable cable-actuated XT price point. If longevity matches their claims, then value will be awesome for those with the treasure for the initial buy-in.
Over the coming months, and hopefully years, I'll be riding this XT M8130 LinkGlide drivetrain (LG500 chain / LG700 cassette) into the ground and reporting back. It's impressive out of the box and its potential to be the go-to every-person's drivetrain is significant.
Shimano has plenty more information on their LinkGlide site. For those curious to give it a shift, you'll be seeing plenty of spec at your local bike shop, but you may have to ignore that battery in the downtube if you want to get in a parking lot test.
M8130 derailleur: 165 CAD
M8130 shifter: 93 CAD
LG700 cassette: 180-200 CAD.
Comments
Glenn Bergevin
2 years, 1 month ago
I've been waiting for this write up, and I'm not disappointed. I really regret going Shimano 12 speed, it's delicate, high maintenance and I don't need the range, a fact constantly drilled into my head by my two other bikes with Shimano 11s, which are just plain more enjoyable to use and ride.
What I'm REALLY excited about is that I think the Deore and XT level linkglide cassettes are the same, except for the fact that the XT has a 50t cog riveted to the 43. That means I can build a 10s XT drivetrain with an 11-43 cassette, just using the low limit screw to lock out the last click on the shifter. Lighter than the big XT cassette, durable, my ideal range...
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Absolutely right in terms of building a 10-speed XT drivetrain. The cable pull ratio and cog distance is consistent through all LinkGlide stuff. You also don’t have to use a Shimano chain, just be sure to use 11-speed for best surface contact.
I really enjoyed my review experience on Deore HG+, but I’m not certain why they’re keeping that or SLX around. I think there’s a solid argument for HG+ XTR and XT (racing) but Shimano sums up the LG use case well:
Also, for Enduro racing (versus XC/DH) I think we’ll see a lot of XT LinkGlide on pros bikes this year. Survivability.
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TurboChip
2 years, 1 month ago
I was curious about their new LG driveset and have been doing a little research when I found this thread.
I just purchased my first eBike, a Turbo Levo, SWorks Frameset, I will build from the Frame-up.
My initial thought was to build with XTR 12sp with XO1AXS, we know that works well. Then I found the durability of the current 12spd group sets to be an expensive option with a short lifespan on eBikes.
Then I looked deeper into compatibility with AXS, and found a youtube video that uses a 11spd cassette with AXS, with a little B adjustment the chain won’t jump up to the 12th gear or ghost gear the guy called it. Not sure how the chain would actually work on such a set up using the shimano LG 700 cassette with the AXS.. but I believe it might actually work, simply because you are any compatible 11speed chain!
My question seems be, will the spread in the LG cassette / tooth profile be a stretch for the AXS program to recognize, or maybe it will compensate with some tinkering of the B screw.. and work perfectly..
I noticed in the video the chain seemed to skip on the upper cogs when shifting up. As in, not grab on initial upshift.
https://youtu.be/0xrNh08_EtM
Your thoughts?
Chip
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mrbrett
2 years, 1 month ago
I love eBikes - they have brought durability back into the discussion.
Seems like if I sneeze on my HG+ stuff it goes out of whack.
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Znarf
2 years, 1 month ago
I have a linkglide XT group on my electric cargo bike, which I ride up and down steep gravel roads for commuting with my kid a lot. 1500km+ on it, it still shifts like new and the chain seems to be good to go so far.
Freaking 48t chainring seems to minimize wear as well, as the big cogs see actual use on the cassette.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
You can also replace just the 11t and 13t cogs when they wear out. Shimano has committed to having inventory.
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Lu Kz
2 years, 1 month ago
Wearing out 11t and 13t cogs is never a problem that had entered my head as "a thing that happens" living in the hilly Kamloops and being mountain primary. But for EEB commuting? I get it.
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Cooper Quinn
2 years, 2 months ago
Because I am lazy (millennials, amirite?!) and haven't Googled this myself, is there other cassette options in the LG line? I'd absolutely consider something like this for my cargo ebike, but that gear range is wildly unnecessary for it, and I'd feel like Turd Ferguson in a novelty sized hat.
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Sethimus
2 years, 2 months ago
10s 11-43
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Cr4w
2 years, 1 month ago
The standard M8000 11-40 or 11-42 11s cassettes still exist.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I also would be better served by a smaller range LG700 cassette. Say, 11-45t. LinkGlide is awesome, and I’m certain Shimano will populate it more from here.
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DanL
2 years, 1 month ago
9spd 11-45 is too much to ask/wish for isn't it
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Take the 10spd 11-43, pull one cog out, and limit out the shifter? It’ll go.
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fartymarty
2 years, 1 month ago
10 speed 11-43 would be perfect. I could keep using my Zee (probably only just tho).
Edit - apologies for the foreshadowing - i guess it comes with being a 10ZEEr (and a little surprised Vik didn’t beat me too it).
Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
So, this is a first impression. I haven’t had a chance to run an LG cassette with an HG drivetrain. My understanding is you’ll get the benefits of cassette durability but not the shifting improvements. Which should be awesome. Stop foreshadowing my future material!
Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Following up here. LG cassette seems to shift fine with an HG shifter/derailleur in the stand, but in the parking lot there’s enough of a pitch difference it’s not ideal. Would run in a pinch but you’ll want to keep buying HG cassettes for your HG drivetrain - or transition to LinkGlide.
fartymarty
2 years, 1 month ago
Andrew - Thanks for the update on the Zee. C'est la vie.
Cooper Quinn
2 years, 1 month ago
True but this isn't a LinkGlide cassette.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
You can run 10-speed 11-43 with the 11-speed drivetrain - just limit out one click - or, why wouldn’t you run Deore M5130 on a commuter?
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Cooper Quinn
2 years, 1 month ago
Yeah that's what I'm looking for. I'm sure you mentioned it I just missed it...
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DanL
2 years, 1 month ago
It's a big hat, it's funny
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cyclotoine
2 years, 1 month ago
I just bought a used e-cargo and the 10speed deore drivetrain was shot. I put a new 11-42 Deore 10 speed cassette on and 11-46 was an option at the deore level. This deore stuff is current Generation and absolutely fine. I don't know what the difference is between this stuff and linkglide... I'd consider running it on any bike.
I also just bought two Microshift 11-50T AdventX drivetrains, shifter, derailleur and cassette were $135 all in. I couldn't resist. Hopefully, it proves to be reasonably durable but I can also swap for a linkglide cassette if it's not.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
10spd Deore HG is a solid groupset. With LinkGlide you'd experience better shifting and and a significant improvement in drivetrain longevity. But that said, replacing a Deore HG cassette isn't exactly an expensive undertaking maintenance wise.
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Marc Pfister
2 years, 1 month ago
Advent 11-48 cassette + 5100 rear derailleur + Zee shifter + 11 speed chain is budget Nirvana
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TristanC
2 years, 2 months ago
I think I read this elsewhere, but does this have a different cable pull ratio than other Shimano 11-speed gruppos?
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
It is noted in my retrogrouchitorial above, but, yes, LinkGlide has its own cable pull ratio. That’s to create inter-compatibility between 10-Speed Deore M5130 and 11-Speed XT M8130. (I know current 10/11 is inter compatible - I run multiple examples on my family’s bikes - but not on the same performance level).
I know there’s an XKCD joke here about new standards just adding standards, but if you’re interested I’m currently working on another piece explaining that decision which should be up here next week.
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John Hinton
2 years, 1 month ago
Does that mean linkglide uses the 10s pull ratio, or something else?
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Something else. But please note, this is a first impression. I haven’t had a chance to play around and see how close something else is to past systems.
Also, I’ll have another piece in for next week that will talk more about the why of this change.
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John Hinton
2 years, 1 month ago
Looking forward to it!
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papa44
2 years, 1 month ago
I would like to subscribe to this newsletter. I’m aware I will one day need to transition away from my beloved 10sp short cage zee
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
There are some updated thoughts in my CUES piece if you’re interested.
Cheers!
Blofeld
2 years, 1 month ago
I was hoping you’d have thrown in a scale shot for this review that had a full water bottle on with this cassette. What a unit! I feel like a better ebike ratio set from a wear perspective might be 11-11-13-13-15-15-17-23-30-43-50. It would save some grams, too.
The cable pull incompatibility is the deal breaker for me, though.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Hahaha, that would have been brilliant. Cassette weight was an initial concern but this new 700-series cassette weighs significantly less than the 600 (discontinued) that originally shipped with it.
Since I’ve been asked, these are non-series cassettes, which is why it’s not listed as M8130.
———
I felt the same way until I set it up and rode it. I think the ratio was chosen with good reason (interchangeability with 10-speed M5130 Deore / yes I know current 10/11 is interchangeable / this is also a notable shifting improvement for both groups) and I’m currently writing a piece about that which I think will be live here next week.
As noted, for me the upgrade will come when we’re do for derailleurs/cassettes anyway and will mean mothballing or selling on some stalwart 10-speed shifters.
It won’t grab everyone-everyone, but I truly believe that in a few years time this group will replace Zee in discussions of Shimano’s all-around best shifting package (value, durability, performance).
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Blofeld
2 years, 1 month ago
I’m looking forward to your piece on the shifter pull ratio. I hope you include a large selection of 2004 press releases from the SRAM 1:1 Actuation launch.
Assuming parts availability gets sorted having two ratios from one brand isn’t an insurmountable problem. I’ll do my best to pick one or the other to keep my gear interchangeable, however, and I’m not taking the e-option right now. On that topic, the lack of a MS driver option is telling in terms of the future of that product line.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I think LG will be the ratio of all non-Di2 stuff within a couple years. In my mind all the race-level groups will be wireless. So, one cable pull ratio.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
For the e-bikers:
The 11 and 13 tooth cogs are replaceable on their own and the same between the different LG cassettes. Shimano has committed to stocking these parts.
I didn’t bother including that information because it’s not germane to a discussion of self-powered bicycles, but Shimano has thought of it.
On the same subject, LG cassettes and their 11-speed chain interface are designed to survive bad shifts by auto-shifting drivetrains on full-powered BroPeds, so they should be hero-shift proof for a pair of legs.
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Speeder1
2 years, 1 month ago
Good info. No plans to put this LG stuff on my any of my mtb's, but man it looks perfect for my Kona Minute cargo/town rig with a luna cycle bbshd mid drive motor on it.
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Morgan Heater
2 years, 1 month ago
That's actually pretty awesome, I run through the bottom three cogs on my commuter way faster than the rest of the cassette, being able to just replace those is a great way to save money and trash.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I’ve seen a few broken 11t and 13t cogs on e-bikes not to mention the wear. Back when I was working in a shop that serviced e-bikes, I actually made a couple cassettes out of e-bike low gears and me-bike high gears that were essentially new.
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lkubica
2 years, 1 month ago
Are those small cogs just slid on a freehub body in a traditional way, or are they on a spider? My biggest gripe with traditional cassettes is that they tend to damage aluminium freehubs and would rather avoid them or just need a steel freehub for my DT hub. Pity that Shimano did not use microspline here, I am currently running a monoblock ZTTO cassette exactly for this reason (chepaper to buy a cassette than cassette + steel freehub).
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
There’s a photo and caption in the piece showing the LG700 cassette I’m running. 7/11 largest cogs are on an aluminum carrier in this case.
MicroSpline has its own issues - mainly around the 10t cog and the lockring - but ignoring that, MS cassettes and freehubs are much more expensive to manufacture. LinkGlide is about inter-compatibility, so that matters.
On a cheaper cassette or using an e-bike running a steel freehub may be a good idea. On the LG700 I’m not concerned about filing a couple burrs towards the outside.
In general though, I think cassette/freehub biting issues with HG are much exaggerated. Been turning wrenches a while, have certainly filed a few, but can’t think of the last time I actually needed to replace someone’s HG freehub from the wear.
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lkubica
2 years, 1 month ago
I used to run Shimano freehubs for a long time, after a year with DT (+ XT 11-46 ) my freehub was so damaged that I had a problem removing the smallest cogs, they made a 1mm deep grooves and literally jammed into the freehub. Not sure why, but is is so bad that I will not run a traditional cassette on this freehub anymore ... I am all for cheaper cassettes and thus trying to avoid 12s anyway, my only gripe is about freehub damage.
You said you would not worry about this when running LG700, why exactly? Is has exactly the same interface for the 3 smallest cogs.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I don’t know your exact circumstances that cause this damage for you. It may simply be that where you live and ride you’re spending the lions share of time in these cogs?
I’ve been riding and turning wrenches for a decently long time. Here on the North Shore. Where our highest torque gears are certainly not the individual options. I’ve not experienced what you’re describing, to the extent you’re describing it, in the time period you’re describing, expect occasionally with e-bikes, where I’d recommend a steel freehub in any case.
I’ve certainly replaced freehub bodies - and DT may be softer than most - but with the e-exceptions, I wouldn’t say prematurely.
I write about my thoughts and experiences with products where I live, ride, and wrench. Every rider should compare that to their own conditions and experiences when deciding on congruencies.
Marc Pfister
2 years, 1 month ago
The new Cues groups are all on LinkGlide: https://si.shimano.com/en/cues so there are a lot more options, albeit on the low end of the parts spectrum.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
This comment has been removed.
BadNudes
2 years, 1 month ago
9 speed, 11-46! Shimano finally answered my prayers!
Thanks!
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Cr4w
2 years, 1 month ago
This is so timely. The Garbaruk 11s cassettes do the same thing and are lighter but are at least $100 more. My current WR1 wheels have an HG driver and a replacement microspline driver is $300 (thanks I9!) so I'm inclined to stay on 11s forever if I can. Nice to have a good option to keep my 11s running indefinitely. I didn't even know this stuff existed until today.
Oh I just read that Linkglide shifters aren't interchangeable with standard 11s stuff. That's a dealbreaker for me too at that weight. I'm making do just fine on 32 x 11-42; I guess I'll stay put. Though a cool option for another time.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Looking at Shimano’s other groups it’s hard to imagine there won’t be more gear range options for LG700 cassettes coming, right?
I knew the shifter would be an initial sticking point for many people and, as noted in other comments, I’ll have a follow up piece talking more about it that I think will be live next week.
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Cr4w
2 years, 1 month ago
That all being said, interoperability between two 11speed bikes isn't exactly crucial for me as long as both wheelsets share the same driver.
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Cr4w
2 years, 1 month ago
So the CS-LG700-11 Deore 11-50 weighs 617g but the CS-LG600-11 XT 11-50 weighs nearly 800g.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
LG600 is dead. Pretend it never existed.
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Lu Kz
2 years, 1 month ago
You gotta respect Shimano for being able to stick to their guns and release 10/11 speed drivetrains they think will actually work for people versus making progressively cheaper dogshit 12 speed options as you go down the line. I wonder if SRAM and MTB marketing/media had never forced shimano to pick up 12 speed what our drivetrains would look like now. 10/11 speed linkglide with substantial lighter weight? Not sure.
I wonder if there are any options out there to mate the linkglide deore group with a nicer shifter? That would make it the *ultimate* ebike drivetrain imo. Smooth shifting, cheap replacements, and as much range as you could ever need with boost/turbo.
The only thing that makes me a bit sad about Linkglide is that by the time I'll want this stuff I'll have a proper bucket of 10/11/12s Saint/XT/XTR shifters and a couple of non-haggard deralleurs that won't work with it.
There's also a part of me that says "go take your new xt/helix drivetrain off your daily and put this on, it'll save you money in the long run", but I am going to tell him to shut up.
Edit: Does talking about hub spacing on shimano hubs ever make you feel O.L.D.? hehe.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
LinkGlide M5130 Deore has the same cable pull ratio as M8130. You just have to limit out one click.
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HanSolo
2 years, 1 month ago
At first glance, I thought this news of a longer lasting Shimano drivetrain was great. However looking closer, I think they’ve missed the mark. They should have offered this new drivetrain with a microspline option.
HG drivers are not robust enough to handle the longevity of the cassettes. Back before 12 speed, I was always having to file down the burrs on HG freehub bodies where the smaller cogs had left gouges. On a few occasions, I had a lot of trouble removing the cassette. If these new cassettes are supposed to last longer, they’re going to leave even larger gouges before they’re eventually removed. I believe many people will have to replace their freehub body at the same time as their cassettes as they’ll essentially be fused together. I haven’t noticed this problem with microspline, likely due to the forces being distributed over more contact points.
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Lu Kz
2 years, 1 month ago
Great point, especially with e-bikes in their sights. I definitly remember hammering cassettes off my freehubs, especially with shimano OEM ones. At one point I had my two most ridden bikes on the more durable Hope freehubs for this exact reason.
At least OEM HG feehubs are a fraction the price of many of their MS counterparts?
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
First off, most hubs you’re going to run on an e-bike have an e-bike or ‘heavy duty’ version now and the difference is a steel freehub body. That solves the issues with cheap cassettes digging in.
For nice cassettes like the LG700 where 7/11 cogs are on a full width carrier issues with HG wear are overstated. Sure, I’ve hammered a few cassettes off but always cheap ones on aluminum hubs.
To each their own but I’ll choose filing driver burrs over MicroSpline with the floating 10t and lockring issues.
MicroSpline is also more expensive to produce. Deore M5130 10spd interchangeability is important.
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Lu Kz
2 years, 1 month ago
Hey, I didn't know that most bikes came with "heavy duty" freehubs - its certainly not listed on the spec sheets on the ones we sell, but most of the stuff that goes through our shop in e-bike territory is MS/XD these days. As I've admitted in the forums I had my problems with MS, but don't have those same issues with XD. It's not like I never managed to un-mate a cassette from an HG driver after some finangling anyway.
All fair points. If your HG freehub is half the price of a dinner for two, even if you've managed to ruin one by the time it is new cassette day (which should be a LONG time on this stuff), maybe a new one is just 'preventative maintenance/wear item' anyway?
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
HG bodies are apparently much less expensive to make, so I imagine the same is true of HG cog carriers as well.
Maybe not a big deal at the XT price point but certainly for Deore it matters.
Added value factors are any 11-spd chain and ring work with the system.
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lkubica
2 years, 1 month ago
I do not get your comments about cheaper cassettes, a 11-46 XT cassette almost destroyed my DT freehub. What's the difference here, between XT or say SunRace? Small cogs are the same, this is just a piece of metal.
For me, HG is the way to go, but apparently you need to add the cost of a steel freehub to it.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
“…apparently you need to add the cost of a steel freehub to it“
I don’t need to. For all e-bikes and any self-powered riders who are having issues with premature freehub wear, a steel driver body is a great idea.
I answered your other similar comment as well.
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Kennoath
1 year, 5 months ago
Soft alloy HG freehub body issues are a real problem for emtb.
I swap between two Horizon v2 wheels and with very low kms, the cassettes have cut deep into the freehub bodies. It is most pronounced in the most-used cogs, and this creates rotational play between the cogs as the cassettes aren't strong enough to distribute the force across the neighbouring cogs (if they were, it would probably spare the freehub). That resulting play between cogs seems to contribute to crappy shifting.
Trouble is, if your wheel/hub mfg doesn't offer a steel freehub replacement then you face the cost of a new hub or wheel.
Would love to switch to linkglide - my wife's bike is flawless with it, after she'd been so frustrated with poor shifting and very short lifespans with OEM 11sp. But for me to swap, I may have to replace wheels as well...?
ChrisHilton
2 years, 1 month ago
Hey Andrew, Just an FYI, Capra Uncaged 6 (Flight Attendant bike) uses an AXS specific frame. While it does maintain a hole in the head tube for a cable actuated dropper post, all the unsightly bulges, holes, and inner tubes for a cable actuated RD are eliminated. I worked on product development for both AXS drivetrains and the Capra, so that's why I would retain such an insignificant bit of info.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Thanks Chris, is it the same frame without exit holes drilled in it or something that was laid up specifically for AXS?
Not that it matters performance wise, but I’m very interested to see how companies move forward with it. I suspect it’s the main driver behind headset cable routing.
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Justin White
2 years, 1 month ago
"Thanks to the tucked 'Shadow' profile,"
There is no "tuck" on Shimano's HG+/LG mechs, they are "Shadow" in name only and I think Shimano is doing a disservice to their original improvement to use that name on the new stuff. The HG+ B-pivot design/shape is basically the same as SRAM and everything else that isn't real Shadow.
I did the measurements, and both Deore and XT 12sp have maybe a couple mm more clearance than GX 12sp at the parallelogram in the small cog and pretty much nothing on the big cog. It's nothing to write home about, especially compared to how much the 10/11sp Shadow design moved the B-pivot backward and inward to create a significant decrease in overall stick-out and an actual useful increase in clearance.
On the good side, Shimano's build quality, especially at the bottom of the range, is so much better, that I have way more faith in, say, an SLX 12sp mech outlasting a GX* 12sp mech by a large margin. I have much more faith in both my Deore and XT 12sp mechs shifting well for significantly longer than my GX 12sp mechs, despite virtually identical likelihood of impacts. And that's not even considering the SRAM clutches are weaker to begin with and being non-adjustable makes those mechs basically disposable parts.
*(GX ASX is slightly different, since they had to upgrade the made-of-butter-and-goes-loose-after-400-miles B-pivot hardware to match the X01/XX1 hardware to better handle the robot action, and it's a worthy upgrade for a GX mech if you do it early)
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Duncan Wright
2 years, 1 month ago
Re: GX AXS, Do you know when they upgraded the B-Pivot hardware/if that's a thing you can get aftermarket? Mine is new as of June 2022 and seems fine so far, but it's something I'd like to stay on top of.
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Justin White
2 years, 1 month ago
I don't know "when", I think always for AWS. And this is just guesstimation from looking at pictures while looking for a replacement pivot for my GX mechanical, and from someone else that checked the AXS mech's part numbers.
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Alex D
2 years, 1 month ago
Can you take some measurements of your LG components? I maintain a compatibility sheet and it's been a trial updating it for this stuff. The cassette weights don't make sense, it's unclear if the RDs use different cable pull or if the compatibility difference is the shifters, and the sprocket thickness and pitch are undefined. Very keen to learn what's actually possible to mix and match.
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Blofeld
2 years, 1 month ago
That’s a great resource, thanks for posting. May I ask if the numbers you’ve collected are from measurements you’ve made yourself? There are a few values on your sheet which don’t match with anecdotal compatibility reports and I’m digging in.
In contrast to the article stating LG was “the 1x group Shimano's design team always wanted to make”, I’m now thinking some of Shimano’s choices were more around making something that doesn’t work with any competitor’s product. A direct shot against the SX and NX groups on “cheap” (<$9000) e-bikes.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
In terms of e-bikes, the shifting under load (super hero shifting) of LinkGlide is better than anything SRAM currently sells.
The cassette pitch allows for thicker cogs for improved durability and ramp profiles (11 cogs in the same space as 12 cogs).
Going forward, I think we’ll continue to see less compatibility between SRAM or Shimano. Unless if wireless derailleurs get opened up such that riders can tune the distances the derailleur travels each shift.
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Kos
2 years, 1 month ago
Looks great. Weight probably matters most in my head, not on the trail, but ~300 g heavier cassette than Eagle 12-speed?
And I love the idea of more drivetrain durability, but honestly have to work really hard to wear out a well-lubed XO1 drivetrain -- admittedly not living in as challenging conditions as North Shore weather.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
XX1/X01 cassettes last a long time - but they’re not close to LG700 in the price discussion.
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Cr4w
2 years, 1 month ago
This comment has been removed.
Vik Banerjee
2 years, 1 month ago
Sounds like a nice option to have. I'm glad Shimano is still putting out new 11 speed gear even if the reason is BroPeding. I'm still stuck on the 10 speed/Zee stuff for a value setup. I can buy a Zee derailleur/shifter + chain/11-42T HG cassette for ~$140USD or about the same price as the LG cassette.
I'm also not going to use a cog bigger than 42T for anything other than an emergency bonk gear and I can just walk up climbs in that rare scenario rather than carry a pie plate around all the time. So the extra gear range of the LG doesn't add value for me personally.
The durability angle of the LG could be interesting if it really
On the battery/wireless front I'm not interested at all, but if you are going down that road using the big BroPed battery and charging one battery vs. 8 separate small batteries makes a lot of sense. I sometimes think the motor/battery-ification of mountain biking is just the bike industry trying to save me money by not tempting me with $$$ bling anymore. It's probably just a happy coincidence, but I'll take it. ;-)
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I agree that a smaller range LG700 cassette makes sense. I’d also be better served by, say, an 11-45t with a 30 or 32t ring.
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DanL
2 years, 1 month ago
The HG driver really got my attention here, followed by durability and then the usage focus. Sad I have a minor investment in HG 10/11spd parts sitting in a box however, but who could have foreseen this turn of events! I can see that after a few derailleur mangling skinnies this becomes a decent proposition but one reason I stayed with 10spd as 11-46 is almost perfect for me. And on the third hand, re-upping like Vik mentioned for my needs is $150 all in but I still like the direction that this is all going and does present a great move for future supported hardware if you were to dive in now. Great article as well, Andrew, thanks again.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Thank you, Dan.
I have a decent collection of HG10/11 too, though almost everything is on bikes now.
As you say, who could have seen this coming? 11-speed chain becomes the one width (maximizing surface contact and making space for up to 11 cogs), HG driver rides back to prominence!
I can actually imagine a scenario where MicroSpline dies off since HG still rules the road and will roar back to dominate the highest volume of Shimano mountain bike sales. Easy running change with all HG+ stuff going to 11 instead of 10 - the marketing writes itself.
In the same stroke (hey, it’s my fantasy) Chris King apologizes publicly for failing to live up to their own standards and sends a free HG or XD driver and whatever else is required, with a needle bearing installed, to every poor customer who paid huge money for the new version.
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DanL
2 years, 1 month ago
It's certainly a great way to create 2 markets that have no/ need no overlap and actually appears to serve the requirements of those markets. I've just got to pop out and buy some more steel Hope HG drivers......
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Lu Kz
2 years, 1 month ago
Yeah, it's pretty wild. After holding out a few years, I've almost entirely swapped my fleet over to XD/HG (I run e13 options on the XD drivers to stay Shimano), with hubs I expect will outlast the bikes they're on. I don't think my sole remaining HG freehub on the Aurum is going to benefit from linkglide. Damn it!
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fartymarty
2 years, 1 month ago
Vik - you're singing my song. 11-42 10 speed Zee / XT ticks the good, cheap and light(ish) boxes. The only thing that will make me change is a lack of parts. However its nice there is another option out there.
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GB
2 years, 1 month ago
Durable , dependable , backwards compatible.
And affordable?
Bring it on!
I need to replace my ten speed xt derailleur. At this price I could swap out to a brand new drive train !
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BadNudes
2 years, 1 month ago
This seems like a step in the right direction. I've tried a few 12 speed options and the ones where I could possibly justify the price have failed to impress, or even driven me further into retro-grouchism. For the last year the only off-road bike I reach for has been the single speed, and the only on-road bike has a 1x downtube friction shifter with a 10s Microshift Advent X 11-48 cassette (only 424g!) and a cheap Sunrace RDM900 that has some quirks but has so far really impressed me. That derailleur and cassette combined cost me about half the LG700 cassette MSRP, so while I'm sure Linkglide functions better and lasts longer, the cost/benefit balance is not exactly simple. Especially when comparing to Microshift's complete groups, I think Shimano finally has some competition at the end of the market where they've never had before, which is probably (maybe?) a good thing.
Now that we have ~$850 'entry level' bikes coming with Tourney, brands like Microshift, Sunrace, Sensah and L-Twoo building mostly positive reputations, and department store BSOs coming with complete mystery gear, Shimano will have to run with this philosophy and push it even further if they want to be the drivetrain mfr for the 'every person'. Crossing my fingers for a Linkglide 9 or 10s clutch Alivio 11-46ish option soon.
in the meantime I've still got an off road bike with M8000 if I decide I need some gears on the trails again, so I'll try to keep that going until I can't get parts. That generation XT stuff have been OK for me, it never lived up to the expectations older Shimano 9 speed stuff left me with, but much better than the 10 speed SLX/Deore setup that felt like it needed adjustment every ride.
Thanks for the review Andrew. Glad to see Shimano hasn't abandoned the tried-and-true, and isn't solely focused on keeping up with the Joneses.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I’ll write more about it in my follow up for next week, but I’m also stoked about the every-person development.
In my mind Deore M5130 LG is the coolest thing to happen to mountain drtivetrains in a long time.
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John Hinton
2 years, 1 month ago
What happens when you try to use the linkglide 11s cassette with a deore M5100 derailleur and shifter?
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
This is a first impression piece so I haven’t got around to all the stuff I want to play with (cough quit stealing my future material cough - hahahaha).
But, you should get the advantages of cassette wear without the improvements in shifting performance that come from the derailleur/cassette being designed to work together.
LG does shift fantastically, but if someone is quite happy with their current 10/11 setup it could make sense to just buy a cassette AND a 11-speed chain if they’re currently running 10spd.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Following up on this, in the bike stand HG and LG play together and certainly would in the real world over a few gears but under load the jumps are bigger-enough on LG cassettes (11-cogs in the space of 12-cogs) that it sucks.
Folks running HG will want to stick with HG cassettes. I’ve had great experiences with SunRace for folks looking for a good shifting option with all steel cogs.
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a.funks
2 years, 1 month ago
Just ridden home with a brand new LinkGlide XT 11 speed drivetrain on my Levo commuter/MTB. I’ve been through so many chains and cassettes over the last four years - normal drivetrains can’t handle full power from a motor and someone who likes to pedal hard. Over half of that mileage has been done with less than ideal shifting due to the cassette wear being annoyingly fast.
On the plus side, I got so tired of bad shifting and replacing parts on the Levo that my new hardtail (and main MTB) ended up as a singlespeed!
I suspect the cassette weights will put a lot of riders off - but as rotating mass goes, it’s very close to the axle so angular inertia isn’t significant and as unsprung mass goes, yes it’s a few hundred grams more but it’s not a big percentage change when you add the whole wheel and tyre (over 3000g), under 10%.
Everything about LinkGlide looks reassuringly chunky, so I’m hopeful of a big increase in durability!
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Too early for me to comment from personal experience, but it certainly looks and feels the part.
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mat8246
2 years, 1 month ago
I’ve been using Deore M5100 11 speed, currently with whatever the all steel 11-42t cassette is for durability and closer ratios. But there’s also the option of 11-46t and 11-51t if I need it in the future.
I’m using an XT shifter and it’s all working really well, with the benefit of the bit dangling off the back of my bike being low cost you replace.
I suppose what I’m saying is I’m not sure I see the benefit of a whole new system which essentially offers an equivalent. Unless the shifting is that much better?
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a.funks
2 years, 1 month ago
It’s not about better shifting, it’s about being tough enough to withstand ebike power. I’ve been on HyperGlide XT 11 speed for a few years and found cassettes start shifting worse at about 600 miles and are wrecked by 1200 miles.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
The shifting is better too.
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a.funks
2 years, 1 month ago
The boss at my LBS said that too - he was talking about smoothness and I think that’s true. I guess I’m used to noisily but quickly banging up and down on knackered HyperGlide XT.
Almost solely commuting use the last 8 months had worn out the smaller six sprockets and left the biggest barely worn, to the point it wouldn’t even shift to the the biggest two because the chain was so out of whack with them (not ideal when trying to pedal up something almost too steep to walk up!)
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
There’s nothing about LG that’s going to have you pawning your current drivetrain to upgrade, but comparing fresh to fresh I appreciate the improved shifting LG delivers.
It’s early days but I’d go as far as to say LG shifts as well as HG+ but doesn’t require a proprietary ring and chain to get there.
I’m working on another piece for next week that will further explain the thinking behind the new system.
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Brian Judd
2 years, 1 month ago
Nice write-up about what looks like a really interesting product!
Now with the niceties out of the way, I gotta ask an off-topic question. That "Drew -Bob" Marin may or may not have hideous cables, but it definitely has a sharp-looking stem. I'm considering starting a new build, and I like this angular, industrial look. I don't recognize it though. Can anyone tell me who makes that stem?
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Velocipedestrian
2 years, 1 month ago
Looks like a NSB Overlord from here.
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Brian Judd
2 years, 1 month ago
Yep, that's it. Thanks for the pointer.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Yep, 31.8 North Shore Billet Overlord. That one’s a 40mm.
Hideous cables for sure! Ha. Just for the record, the Inline barrel adjuster is there to easily change housing length not as an adjustment.
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Squint
2 years, 1 month ago
Focusing in durability instead of marketing is refreshing, but for meat powered dirt use the 11-13-15 is where we could be doing the trimming.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Agreed.
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Curveball
2 years, 1 month ago
This sounds like the ultimate drivetrain for me. I've used various XT drivetrains for a good many decades with great reliability. I tend to keep my bikes for a long time and every XT drivetrain that I've had has been solid, even with mucky PNW trails.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
It’s quickly proving to be my ultimate drivetrain though I would very much like to try Deore M5130 as a comparison and do also intend to inboard my chainring some.
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GB
2 years, 1 month ago
Looking at the Deor 10 speed LG cassete in 11 43 it's basically 600 grams
HG version 400 grams .
Shimano claims this cassete last 3 times a long as the HG ?
At a half pound weight penalty.
The advantage is not really performance even if it does promise crisp shifting.
For bike touring and commuting it's a sound investment.
Mind you my touring/commuting full suspension bike uses this antiquated front transmission that enables me to use very light weight very affordable tight spaced clusters.
For my meat powered fun bike I'm more inclined to save that half a pound and have another 100$ in my pocket .
Must be for those 50 pound electric motor pedal bikes . I'll look into those when I'm 80 years old .... maybe .
Probably not .
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
The shifting is much improved as well, however, as I noted, I'm not scraping a good HG drivetrain to upgrade to LG. When I'm due for a replacement rear derailleur anyway, the additional cost of a shifter is worthwhile to me for the performance and longevity improvements.
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Justin Brown
2 years, 1 month ago
I was interested in this when it was initially released, cassette was too heavy though, and I’d not long installed XT 12 Speed. Much better weight with the new cassette.
I’ve only got about 200 miles on my XT 8100 and the way it was marketed I think was misleading, you think you’ve got it perfect. Going up and down the cassette then next time it’s grinding. I feel I want to get rid of it and swap it out.
I wish they’d released or additionally released for Microspline though. Been pushed to Microspline for the latest and greatest and now stuck with no alternatives. Hopefully they don’t just reserve MS for 12 speed in the future.
How is the black coating holding up? The stuff on the XT 12s cassette was coming off by the time I was finished indexing. Worse than the Sunrace cassette which was stock on the bike at the time.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
The LG600 cassette was a tank, but I don't think anyone counting grams is going to jump on the LinkGlide train over HG+. The shifting is better and I'd agree thus far it requires much less micro-tuning.
No issues with coatings thus far but that's why this is just a first look. I think LinkGlide is the sort of thing that will require a couple of follow-up pieces over a couple of years if I really want to talk about longevity.
I've not been a fan of MicroSpline at all, and I have three years of prior art to back that up. It can die a fiery death as far as I'm concerned. 10t cogs suck and any issues with cogs 'digging in' on HG drivers are outweighed by the beauty of it being a 40-year-old open standard.
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bart
2 years, 1 month ago
LinkGlide and Cues are some of the most exciting product launches I have seen in a long while - Shimano really giving a lot of people what they want deep down and a long term view into a solid range of products.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
100%. Change is always hard to manage but looking back I think folks will be stoked on LinkGlide, from CUES 4000 to XT M8130 and everything in between.
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daithi
1 year, 7 months ago
> Over the coming months, and hopefully years, I'll be riding this XT M8130 LinkGlide drivetrain (LG500 chain / LG700 cassette) into the ground and reporting back. It's impressive out of the box and its potential to be the go-to every-person's drivetrain is significant
Curious, Andrew, it's been about 6 months. How's it holding up? Would the min-max'er in you go for the entire M8130/LG600 XT Group or swap something out? And more importantly, why can't I find it to buy anywhere!?
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Andrew Major
1 year, 7 months ago
Cheers, I’ve been thinking of writing a follow up but I have nothing to report. The drivetrain has been faultless. I’ve been riding it with a friction shifter mostly but if anything that’s harder on drivetrains because of the bigger range shifts that are possible with just cranking a lever versus indexing through gears.
I’m sold on LinkGlide but I’d like an 11-42 or 45t cassette with a shorter cage rear derailleur.
I’d also really like to compare with M5130 Deore before making bold proclamations, but of what I’ve tried on 11-spd and 12-spd wide range drivetrains the M8130 is the one I’d spend my own money on.
I could be happy forever with a 28t oval ring and 11-36t XT cassette with a Zee derailleur and friction-thumby though, so what do I know!
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daithi
1 year, 7 months ago
On my current bike I don't think I could live without the 50t sprocket on my cassette... But that is paired with a 32T round so maybe I could drop to a smaller chainring.
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mikeynets
2 years, 1 month ago
@Andrew Major re: no hinge on Shimano shifter clamp — I recently learned about this hack but haven't done it myself yet — supposedly I-spec shifters fit nearly perfectly with SRAM Matchmaker clamps. Maybe a little filing or dremmeling needed, sometimes not.
@Glenn B — same boat. I don't love my 12sp SLX/XT drivetrain. It's not as buttery smooth as I was led to believe it would be. I have a seven year old 11spd X1 shifter/derailleur I've transferred from two bikes that works flawlessly and is my gold standard. 28T chainring, Sunrace 11-46 cassette. Happy camper.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
@mikeynets it works fine as long as you’re just using it as a shifter clamp (not trying to MatchMake a brake lever).
This is from my Deore HG+ review.
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mikeynets
2 years, 1 month ago
Correct, and thanks for the clarification.
That's another gripe I have with the 12spd XT — I know it's supposed to have improved range of adjustment for shifter/brake ergonomics, but it just doesn't work for me in the I-spec configuration. Hence why I'm looking to separate them with the matchmaker clamp.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
If you already have I-Spec setup, Wolf Tooth does make excellent hinged clamp mounts to separate the shifter.
Not to be the a-hole just linking to his own stuff (but hey, own it right?) I did write about them in a piece with some cheeky undertones.
I generally prefer separate mounts.
Here’s a better shot of my MM-Shimano setup:
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Velocipedestrian
2 years, 1 month ago
Thanks for the reminder, if I'm going to future:fewer gears my Rifty I'll need to figure out a separate clamp for my 10s shifter.
Actually I should figure one out anyway, the flatter brake / steeper shifter positioning is entirely worth the "cluttered" bar.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I do enjoy the extra range of most independent setups.
Kenneth Perras
2 years, 1 month ago
For small wheel riders, I highly recommend the 10-45 12spd options from Shimano. The shorter cage adds a nice safety margin between it and hard objects on the ground.
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Perry Schebel
2 years, 1 month ago
i've been running a mid-cage xt 11 speed (w/ XD 10-42) for a couple years; big fan of the compact / less dangly setup. relatively cheap / light / robust.
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Connor Gillan
2 years, 1 month ago
right? If this shit ever dies I'm going to be sad... XTR 11spd, 10-42 1199 cassette.. cassette is 250g.
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Lu Kz
2 years, 1 month ago
Shimano: Hey guys, we took our time and made an affordable and ultra-durable drivetrain for all the ebikes out there! It's more sustainable, shifts great, and gives you all the range you need. Best yet, it works fine for all the meat powered riders out there who want enjoy the same things too. Enjoy!
SRAM: Hey ebikers, we made you a shifter where all it does is take away your ability to change multiple gears in a single click because we know you're too stupid to handle the increased torque of an ebike while retaining the ability to change multiple gears at once. Have fun with it, you monkey brained morons.
[note: I am aware of the dedicated E-agle drivetrain, but its existence doesn't ruin this joke because 1. you still don't get to shift mulitple gears in a single go and 2. good luck finding it in the wild several years after release]
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trumpstinyhands
2 years, 1 month ago
Funnily enough I just purchased one of those Broped Specific Sram X01 shifters for my new normal MTB. I find quick multiple taps are just as effective as one long throw and can adjust the position of the lower lever so I don't have to bend my thumb 120 degrees back to reach it :D . Even on my AXS equipped bike I do quick taps.
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Lu Kz
2 years, 1 month ago
Perfectly legitimate! I'm sure I would be fine with them if I was used to it and ran the system throughout, but they feel so awkward if you're used to liberally using the multi shift functions of most of other high end shifters.
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Bli33ard
1 year, 11 months ago
"Broped"- yes, a bike with a motor is a moped. lol!
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XXX_er
2 years, 1 month ago
My Bullit has NX and it always works flawlessly, I thot the motor would be hard on drive train but that was not the case,
I changed the cables & chain as part of maintenance but probably didnt need to,
I do make it a practice to back off during a shift when I can
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ShawMac
2 years, 1 month ago
I am suddenly confused and excited at the same time. I am a diehard 11 speed fan and last year invested in the Deore M5100 11 speed derailleur and shifter. How does this new system compare and does this leave me invested in an obsolete system? Once my Sunrace cassette wears out, I was planning on a Deore 5100 11-51T. Will the new LG cassette work? Will it shift like shit?
If the chains are not specific, what is it about the derailleur and cassette that make them specific to each other and not backwards compatible to the HyperGlide cassettes and derailleurs? Just not taking advantage of the performance benefits?
Should I be reinvesting in a whole new LG system when it comes time for the new cassette or sticking with the Derore 5100?
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Justin White
2 years, 1 month ago
Pretty sure it's not the cassette & mech combo that makes the magic. They need to match up for cog-count and cog-capacity, of course, but it's the chain & cassette that do the interfacing... the mech just pushes the chain around. Pushes precisely, but it's still just pushing.
Corroborating this is how great my ShRAMano mash-up of XT mech, X01 chain, and GX cassette shifts compared to the previous GX mech with GX cassette and KMC* chain
*(KMC chain replaced the GX chain that melted in like 300 miles, and though KMC used to be good stuff, it just doesn't keep up with modern high-end SRAM and Shimano anymore)
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Waiting for an official update from Shimano, but I shifted through an LG-11 cassette with an HG-11 drivetrain at work today and it was great. 11spd chain is the key.
*edit: this works in the stand but isn’t great in the parking lot. I’d use it in an emergency but the pitch is larger enough on LG that you’ll want to keep buying HG (or SunRace) for your HG drivetrain.
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Alex D
2 years, 1 month ago
Andrew, are you saying the sprocket pitch is the same between LG11 and HG11? If the sprockets are thicker, the spacing between them must be narrower, right?
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Hi Alex, I’m definitely not saying the pitches are “the same” - I’m saying they’re close enough that an HG-11 shifter/derailleur can hit every cog with an 11-speed chain. It’s good enough that I’d ride the setup without a second thought but I am waiting for something official from Shimano.
The bases of each cog are much thicker but the teeth themselves can’t be wider that the inner plates of an 11-speed chain.
*EDIT - See Below
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
@Alex - it works great in the stand but shifting isn’t great through the whole stack in the parking lot. Especially compared to how fantastic LG is. The pitch is bigger between cogs on LG.
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Alex D
2 years, 1 month ago
Appreciate you checking. If you happen to have a pair of calipers to measure the cassette width or sprocket pitch, that would be really helpful.
Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
It’s on my list Alex. My calipers at home are dead so I need to get a battery or get the bike back to the shop - which are little things but busy-busy. Next week for sure.
Mammal
2 years, 1 month ago
This system looks great. I'd probably dive in head-first if I didn't have a full array of Deore 11spd/SunRace stuff to throw on my Squish'N'Pedal bike this season (2 derailleurs and 2 chains stocked). Oh well, I have a feeling the value proposition will be a wash, with the $100 replacement cost of steel SunRace cassettes.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Shifting is notably improved with LG as well and the way the chain 'walks' up and down the cassette. But I'm certainly in no hurry to replace perfectly functional HG drivetrain components. This is something to keep in mind for the future. I wouldn't buy another Zee (or XT) HG or HG+ derailleur when LG Deore and XT are options.
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danithemechanic
2 years, 1 month ago
This comment has been removed.
danithemechanic
2 years, 1 month ago
Sorry comment removed, i found you wrote a weight for it somewhere in the article, glad they dropped some and made it at least Sunrace comparable now.
But i'd like to know if they made any changes to the derailleur cage spring assembly too.
The thing would just seize dead on every and each XT, seems pointless to me claiming more durability and leaving it like that.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Dan, are you talking about the clutch assembly? I’ve certainly replaced a few of these but I live in one of the wettest year round riding areas around and it’s no where near close to “every” derailleur.
Lubing the clutch is routine maintenance that’s quick and easy to do. Shimano does an admittedly bad job of telling people this, but I do it with most tuneups in the shop.
Anyway, assuming we’re taking about the clutch system seizing, I pulled the cover to detune the clutch and inspected it at the same time. It looks sufficient lubricated to me, but I’ll confirm once I have enough hours on the derailleur.
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danithemechanic
2 years, 1 month ago
No Drew, i'm talking about the pivot the cage rotates around that is sprung.
Shimano's clutches are often called culprit of the cage suddenly remaining frozen forward, but it's not their fault.
A little further disassembly shows a rust bucket in the spring area, due to an unrealistic way of sealing it and choosing simple steel for the pivot and its housing.
If you wait until the cage locks, an hammer job it is.
If i'd ever have a Shimano derailleur on my bike, it would be the first thing i'd pack full of grease.
I suggest you investigate further.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Hello Dan,
Thank you for clarifying where you're seeing an issue. I've disassembled a fair few broken Shimano rear derailleurs over the last couple of years, salvaging them for parts, and this is not an issue I've come across with any regularity.
I'll take your experience under advisement though.
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danielshiels
2 years, 1 month ago
I feel like for those of us with Shimano 11 speed set ups on an hg Freehub the best min-max/budget course of action is to keep everything we've already got and just throw on the deore 11 speed cassettes. All steel but lighter than these, absolutely fine shifting and still the 51 tooth bail out gear. The only adjustment I needed to make was a 2.3mm Freehub spacer because the cassette didn't tighten down with a 1.85 and the b limit screw for the dinner plate. On my second cassette now and got really good wear from the first so I'm sticking.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Absolutely, SunRace makes excellent steel 10-spd and 11-spd cassettes as well.
For folks that need a rear derailleur, or otherwise need a drivetrain, anyways, there’s a strong argument to upgrade to LinkGlide in terms of shifting performance alone, but folks who have a serviceable shifter and derailleur and are happy with HG shifting will find their best value in replacing cassettes.
I’d still recommend giving LG a pedal if the chance presents itself.
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danielshiels
2 years, 1 month ago
I'd like to try it, next step is a Shimano 12 speed chain and a suitable chainring, apparently the deore cassette benefits from the same profile of tooth as the new 12 speed stuff higher up and the improvement in shifting associated with it
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Interested to hear about your experiences with the HG+ chain/ring and HG cassette. Have heard very different results and it’s not something I’ve played with. I watch the comments if you want to post here, or send me an e-mail if you don’t mind.
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danielshiels
2 years, 1 month ago
Will do, as soon as the sun comes out in the UK I'll be changing it over, along with the jockey wheels in the derailleur. I'll document anything interesting and send it over
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Awesome, thanks!
danielshiels
1 year, 8 months ago
Just about to change to a 12 speed Shimano chain and a suitable chainring so I'll give you a shout if there's any noticable difference in shifting performance and any durability issues down the line. For ref it's currently:
Xtr 11 speed shifter
Xt 11 speed mech
Deore 11 speed cassette
Dmr blade chainring
Kmc 11 speed chain
Changing to:
Dmr blade 12 speed chainring
Xtr 12 speed chain.
Changing housing, cables etc but sticking with sp41
UFO
2 years, 1 month ago
How does shifter feel compare with the buttery-lightness of 10sp XT/XTR or positive-clicky 11sp XT/XTR?
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danielshiels
2 years, 1 month ago
I'm using the same xtr 11sp shifter and xt derailleur that originally came on a bike I bought in 2018 that had the 11-46 xt cassette. I genuinely can't tell the difference in shifting between the two set ups, its not been a compromise at all.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I find both 10spd and 11spd XT/XTR are quite positive compared to the lightness of the 9spd on my commuter so it’s all relative. Both are more buttery compared to 12-spd HG+.
I tried to really focus on this on my last couple rides and if you had my hand in a vice I’d say LG is most similar to HG-10spd in terms of how the shifter feels but the shifting itself, especially with some power on the pedals, is most like HG+ in terms of how positive it is… I’m purposely not saying best-of-all-worlds but I’m thinking it. It’s neat how the chain “walks” up and down the cassette.
Anywho, I recommend at least a parking lot test once bikes start showing up with LG drivetrains.
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UFO
2 years, 1 month ago
Thanks, I appreciate that. Fwiw I find my 9sp and 10sp XT shifter feel to be quite similar, but 11sp (XT/XTR) is definitely more clicky. I still like the range, gaps, and reliability of my 10sp 11-46 and paired with 11sp rear derailleurs don't find the shifting performance lacking for my needs.
All of our household bikes run on some iteration of 10sp, so once my hoard of spares are through I'll begrudgingly rotate over. I don't feel like I need or want 11 gears, but at least I get the impression LG seems to be optimized whereas Shimano moving to 11sp years ago felt like attaching an extra cog and click to their existing hardware.
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Obittzen
1 year, 4 months ago
Hi guys,
has anyone tried running the RD-M8130 with a cassette from another manufacturer? I would like to avoid the 600g of the CS-LG700-11 (11-50t). I am not concerned with longevity, just good shifting performance.
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Patriciawhitman
1 year ago
Hey! You shouldn't have any problems using a cassette from another manufacturer with your RD-M8130 derailleur as long as it's compatible with the number of speeds on your drivetrain (e. 10-speed, 11-speed).
Here is some resource that might be helpful (search for RD-M8130 derailleur specifications) This page may be useful for gambling in your searches. It seemed useful to me.
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HollyBoni
7 months ago
When can we expect that full review? 🙂
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cyclotoine
6 months, 1 week ago
I too would like to see the long term review.
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Kennoath
6 months, 1 week ago
I posted a year ago, whining about how on emtb, cassettes cut into alloy freehub splines causing multiple problems. Fixed!
I replaced freehub bodies (2 wheel sets) with steel bodies, and replaced the whole drivetrain with linkglide deore.
At first the shifting feels less 'crisp' but then you realise, it is just better. For me, after 1500km, every shift works, even under load, and nothing has been adjusted or touched in that time (aside from swapping two waxed linkglide chains on and off).
If someone gave me a brand new killer emtb with XT, I would swap for linkglide straight away. It's the lowest-hassle drivetrain I've had in my (not short) life.
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