Znarf profile

I’d be interested if the seat angle is great even for really long-legged people? 76 sounds steep BUT:

My RAAW Madonna sports a 78.2deg effective and 74 actual seat angle. And I feel it is perfect. No need to ride your enduro rig with less sag to not make it slump on steeper climbs, no back pain. And with a 210mm dropper it is fantastic up and down. With less drop the saddle doesn’t move enough, with that steep an angle. (no theories here, I actually tried and tested these combinations a lot over the last couple of years)

I also have a 29er Orbea Rallon which sits around 76degrees, varying with bb settings.

At almost 37“ inseam, 76 is tolerable, but the 78 is really a lot better on a slack bike with lots of rear travel - for climbing and pedaling from and to the trails. Also dropper posts last longer for me on bikes with steep actual ST angles.

Could you maybe measure the actual seat tube angle? 

The new Enduro looks great - but this detail could make or break the bike for tall/long-legged folk.

I’ve been riding a Raaw Madonna since March this year. I bought it as a backup for my carbon Orbea Rallon 29 and intended to primarily ride the Orbea and the Raaw for winter rides or when something on the Rallon is broken only.

Since I took delivery of the Madonna I didn’t touch the Orbea once. Even though the Rallon is a great bike, too.

The Madonna felt absolutely spot on for me from the first minute. I have had a lot of nice bikes (instead of owning decent cars) over the years, but very few felt as great from the get go to me. 

If you ride a lot, the Madonna is a fantastic bike. It’s incredibly solid, the performance of the rear suspension is absolutely superb! I love the geometry and especially the longer chainstays and absolutely find it strikes a great balance of confidence and flickability. It climbs great, the seat angle is perfect for long legs, even better than the Rallon‘s.

I believe that the bearings and frame parts will last for a couple of seasons, for real! Most bikes I get around a full season max before the bearings are not rough, but stuck! Also, another unexpected side effect of the alloy frame: it stopped my whimsy fussing about getting the frame dinged/scratched/clamped/crushed in transport (train, ferry, roof rack, shuttling, lift) etc. Carbon frames are strong while riding, but I worried (and actually destroyed one) about them all the time...

And yes, it is not cheap, but when handling the frame in person, it’s incredibly well built and in my opinion worth the price. 

If there is a chance for a test ride, do it!

I am not sponsored or affiliated with RAAW in any way. I just own one and paid full retail for it.

It would be a gross generalization (and a wrong one imho) that "Europeans accept e-bikes". Most of my serious (bio-biking) buddies don't accept e-bikes. They feel that e-biking is a totally different sport and not the right one for most of them. (on trails for recreation).

There are however TONS of people who never actually rode their bikes and now ride e-bikes a lot. But most of them will not ride trails, only bikepaths or bike lanes. They often lack skill and our endurance to ride the heavy bikes safely on trails. 

And then there is the group of e-mountainbikers on trails, which consists mostly of fit-ish younger guys too lazy to ride proper bikes. Some of them don't know trail etiquette, because they just ordered their e-bike online after watching rad youtube-vids with loads of skidding and sick e-bike jumps. 

And then there are 0.01% former real bikers, who can't ride because of some health issues or really old age. And if they can ride again on an e-bike, I am all for it. Truth to be told, these cases are pretty rare.

If it was up to me, I´d ban e-bikes on trails, but introduce a special permit for people with a certificate of disability. 

For commuting and general recreation riding (not on trails) an e-bike is LOADS more efficient than your average Best-Ager Mercedes Cabriolet - so I am all for it.

@Dolomite - e-lobbying across the big pond, eh?

I live in Southern Germany (and manage and build a legal trail system here) and I travel a lot with my mountain bike, all over Europe and have spent quite a bit of time in BC and North America as well, biking. 

Just for the record, I disagree with several of your "conclusions" and "facts".

1. the Dolomites, parts of Austria and South Tyrol DONT have THE best trails in the world.  There are great trails in these regions, but that is true for a lot of regions. I don´t know if you´ve ridden all regions world wide a lot, but if you don´t, you just can´t speak of "world´s best".

2. E-Bikes and trail access are absolutely not without trouble (in Europe) and I for example have certainly NOT understood the potential of E-Bikes the way you have. I however understand that there´s a boat load of POSSIBLE trouble.  

3. As with guns, not E-bikes kill trails, but some people riding them ;-) I´ve experienced douchebag non-e-bike behaviour on trails over the last twenty years. And I´ve experienced douchebag e-bike behaviour on trails. If you have physical ability as a selecting factor (only dedicated people get to 6000ft mountain tops self propelled) there´s a humbling element. Lazy people just don´t go there a lot. And if you´ve climbed LOADS you just don´t argue. You sit there and nibble your energy bar and some water, content with little stuff.

Add a motor though and things get ugly. I KNOW - riding an e-bike can be very exhausting. And absolutely not everyone who rides one is lazy or a douchebag. In fact, there´s no reason that regular mtbers are douchebags, too. And in lift or shuttle assisted riding areas the douchebag factor is higher as well. But suddenly every "regular" tough climb is not as strenuous as before. You´ll have e-bikers speeding climbing trails. And some who don´t. But what´s the point of lugging 5kgs of motor and battery and NOT speed? You could just ride a regular bike...

Yeah - you can rack five times as much elevation a year with your e-bike. But know what? I could multiply that with my car. And could even do it in the rain, without getting wet. In fact - I could do it with a bike on my roof rack. =)

To be fair, as long as you ride your e-bike responsibly, I couldn´t care less if you ride e or non-e. Have fun and enjoy yourself. But just to give the Canadians here a second, non-e opinion I thought I´d contrast your pro-e-bike european opinion with a european non-e-opinion...

Also try Syntace bars. They come in 12deg also, loads of different rises, widths and materials. Not cheap, but probably the highest quality bars and stems you can buy. Don't know if they're available in Canada though?

Procore actually DOES help against burping and rolling, contrary to what the Cushcore chart says. It's also lighter AND it does protect against pinch flats. 

But Cushcore doesn't look bad, too. Especially for park bikes it might be a low maintenance option. 

Their website however states, that it should be swapped for a new foam ring every two tires. It has a "service life" as most other performance products, or so the website says. 

If you ride a lot, that's not a lot of product life for a 149$. 

Not destroying your rims constantly saves a lot of $ though. So maybe it's not that expensive.

I really like this uncle Dave thing. The guy can write and seems like a cool uncle.

Could we have links to those anti 27.5 articles? I'd like to read them 🙂

I am 6ft with long legs and long arms and the large as well fits me perfect with a 70mm stem. And now I start to feel like a parrot 🙂

Great write up btw@boomforreal

I have this exact bike's 26 inch sister. And let me tell you, it is a stellar bike. I even like the elixir trail brakes.

The clamp on the command post ir can be reversed btw. If you want less setback!

Nice bike and write-up!

Is it a Pike RC? Has that a charger damper?
Also - the Hans Dampfs are the "Performance" variant. Probably decent tires, but only from Schwalbes "budget" line.
Understandable at that pricepoint…

Hi!

The lever unit is ISPEC II on the 8020 instead of ISPEC B (Saint) and the clamping surface is much narrower on the 8020. And that’s bad. If you don’t torque the 8020 clamp pretty tight, the lever body will flex considerably. Bad for carbon bars. With enough torque it works though.

The Saint lever feels much more sturdy and the lever blade has a nicer shape.

Modulation is a tad different, as the servo wave path is changed slightly. 8020s modulate a tiny bit softer.

That said, with a proper bleed and identical brake pads, performance and modulation are almost indistinguishable.

I have the 8020s on my main bike and the Saint on my spare bike. Zees on my wife’s ride.

Best product - Saint.

Best value - ZEE.

8020 is a fine brake too, the lever clamp issue is more of an annoyance than a deal breaker.

But differences are not big.

If a bike comes with 8020s I wouldn’t bother upgrading. In fact I am hesitating to swap the 8020s with the Saints before selling of my spare bike - because of internal cable routing. Laziness is bigger than the performance difference IMHO.

BUT if I’d be buying new brakes, I’d then get the ZEEs with metallic sintered pads. The levers have the wider clamp and they pair nicely with most 11spd shifters (problem solvers or Trickstuff or direct mount shimano rapidfire) and value is great.

The new 8120 or the 4pot SLX look fantastic, as the levers are even more clever. BUT they only pair with I-Spec EV shifters. That means ONLY 12SPD Shimano or (all) SRAM triggers with problem solver adaptors to the matchmaker mount.

@hepcat: Giants are incredible value - or put the other way around, carbon boutique frames are not always! 3000$ + framesets are pretty much stretching beyond what I am ready to pay for a frame. It’ll be obsolete in three seasons ;-)

I’ve had great success with giant frames - they held up and the Maestro is one of the best rear suspension systems.

@demonmike: the Privateer looks great and pretty similar to the Madonna :) a no-nonsense bike. A refreshing experience after some years on a high-end carbon frame. Yes, it’s heavier, but don’t having to treat it like a raw egg (in the car, train, shuttling etc.) is so great.

I am on a large Raaw Madonna with a 170mm fork. It’s a relatively heavy alloy frame built with the lightest parts that hold up to all the stuff a long travel 29er dishes out. Key is a light wheelset to keep it fun. 1850g DT Swiss 1501 with 30mm inner width has been fantastic!

The bike isn’t dramatically fast on flat trails, but it works. And depending on the shock it changes nature quite a bit. With a coil with platform lever it’s great for park riding and some climbing. With a Dpx2 or X2 with a firm climb lever it’s even playful. 

Because the geometry is so spot on for me (78deg seat angle), perfect reach, 210mm dropper etc, I really love it. It feels like a glove. 

And once I am in some proper terrain with really long climbs it just gets better. I noticed the weight on the first ten to fifteen rides, coming from a similar travel lighter carbon bike. But the Madonna is somehow just THE bike for me.

I’d add one more angle to the short travel angle:

IMHO if you build one, it only really shines with light/high end components and a light frame. Otherwise I’d take longer travel any day, as the travel doesn’t weigh anything and you can always add progression to your suspension and get a poppy feel... But with a light short travel bike is really fun. (I’d love to try a decked out new Tallboy)

I had a Specialized Stumpjumper Evo Carbon Expert 26“ for a couple of seasons. That thing was 150mm f and r and 11,8kg with proper tires and a dropper post. It was incredible fun and really quick and nimble. But I did break spokes, rims, tires, cranks and frame pivots all the time. Which I rarely managed on all my other bikes.

But still, you all are right in your opinions as bike choice nowadays is really a personal matter and very subjective as there are so many great bikes out there. Body proportions and size, fitness, preference...

And sometimes I feel I just need to try something different for a while to freshen things up and learn...

That's a valid perspective, Hepcat! 

I personally do find that, apart from a race-light full blown carbon XC bike with skinny tires, my long travel bike with a very steep seat angle climbs barely worse or even better than most short travel sleds I've owned. 

Tires and seat angle make the biggest difference for me. With a fast and lightish rear tire, my main bike feels quick and fast. With a DHR II WT and thicker casing it rides much safer, but slower. 

As I don't get away riding light tires, especially not on a short travel bike, I've been let down slightly every time I built a "fast" bike, at least once I fitted tires which held up. 

I have to admit however that with the people I ride with I am usually one of the strongest climbers, which comes without much effort for me. On the other hand I have to really concentrate (and sometimes can't) really keep up with them on the descents. 

Maybe that's why I tend to favor bikes which help me feel more comfortable and secure and it might bias my perception regarding "fast" trail bikes. 

Also my wrists are weak sauce and need to be babied. A long travel bike with great and expensive suspension enables me to ride all year round. My short travel bikes were incredible fun, but my wrists started to hurt all the time and kept me from riding.

I have buddies who ride theirs hard all year, without any discomfort seemingly...

Whatever gives you the most fun is good!

Short travel is big fun, but only when your body has no weak points. For me personally, I tend to ride the same trails regardless if I am on my long travel or short travel bike. And afterwards, while being fun, my body is always really beat up from the short travel bike. Wrist pain and all that stuff. 

It might not be relevant, but if you think your biking career is going to continue for 20+ years, keep it in mind at least. 

If your trail network allows you to stick to easy trails for a full ride, then that’s fine. 

Maybe then you’d like a light bike though? And you’ve already got a hardtail. 

And to make the decision even harder:

My long travel 29er has made all my other bikes (except for commuting) obsolete. I haven’t touched another bike since I bought it in 2018. It’s incredibly versatile and fun AND easy on my body.

Posted by: Ddean

I hear you Synchro but I’m looking at it like this:

He’s a good kid - gets in no trouble 

He loves to ride

Most (95%) of the time he is riding its him and I. He is almost 15. 

I cherish this time with him. I fear it’s short lived as most kids his age want nothing to do with hanging out with their dads. He and I spend so much time just hanging out riding - a good activity for him that hopefully will teach him life skills- and he’s an awesome rider and not below the need for an awesome bike. 

It comes down to maximizing his experience of riding with me for as long as I can. If he thinks riding with dad is wicked forever then that will be an incredible win. Whatever it takes to keep him fired up that’s what I’ll do because I will look back (in probably not that long) and say these were the best of days.

Posted by: Ddean

I hear you Synchro but I’m looking at it like this:

He’s a good kid - gets in no trouble 

He loves to ride

Most (95%) of the time he is riding its him and I. He is almost 15. 

I cherish this time with him. I fear it’s short lived as most kids his age want nothing to do with hanging out with their dads. He and I spend so much time just hanging out riding - a good activity for him that hopefully will teach him life skills- and he’s an awesome rider and not below the need for an awesome bike. 

It comes down to maximizing his experience of riding with me for as long as I can. If he thinks riding with dad is wicked forever then that will be an incredible win. Whatever it takes to keep him fired up that’s what I’ll do because I will look back (in probably not that long) and say these were the best of days.

It is nice to read something like this! I’d say there are not many opportunities where money is spent as fitting/well as here.

Enjoy your father/son time to the max! I had a father once who also prioritized on riding with me and supported me with nice bikes (and I was a good kid, too) and while I am now sad that he died too early, I have had so many great times with him riding and that still makes me happy often!

You are doing great as a dad!

My rear 3c 2.3 DHR 2 Exo has really round knobs and no sipes left and it’s sketchy, sketchy, sketchy.

I would guess that the soft rubber is mostly gone. And I am thinking if refurbished/ retreaded mtb-tires could be a thing in a couple of years.

The amount of waste I generated with half worn mtb-tires over my so far riding career is a shame.

Cornering grip isn’t drastically different, but DHR2 offers noticeably more braking traction.

Compound and casing will make a bigger difference in this instance than thread pattern.

I prefer the DHR on the rear and the DHF on the front wheel.

Super Sentinel for 2020 maybe? 

If you like the Privateer 161 also have a look at the RAAW Madonna. 

It is already available and the Privateer seems to be inspired by it quite a bit ;-)

I find the DHR II Dual unpredictable and not confidence inspiring on the rear wheel. I do like the 3c though.

It works acceptable in loose and loamy conditions, but it slips suddenly on roots and rocks both wet and dusty. 

It doesn’t roll noticeably better than the 3c, too. Wear is reduced a lot though.

The Michelin is a great tire for rough trails, it’s super soft and wears in a couple of days though.

Saving money on tires doesn’t work for me, everytime I put something with harder rubber on my bike, I’ll replace it with some softer tire before it’s worn out because my confidence starts to fade...

The Bontrager SE4 might be something for you? It’s between a 3c and Dual DHR for grip, but does wear slow. It is not a fantastic roller in my experience...