DOES THE FUTURE HAVE FEWER GEARS PT X
High Pivot (Gearing) Hyjinks
High Pivot & Idler (HP+I)
Welcome to the 10th edition of Does The Future Have Fewer Gears. I'd like to highlight two things quickly. First, in a mainstream sense, it does not. The safe bet is we'll see 13 unique ratios on mountain bike drivetrains rather than some mass movement to run 1x9 or 1x10.
Also, there's nothing proprietary happening here. No limited-run machined parts or dark magic, so for those who are curious about a fewer-gear-future for themselves, and can afford to purchase a couple of components to investigate, my intention is for this to provide inspiration.
My high pivot & idler (HP+I) micro-drive experiment was conducted on the Devinci Chainsaw I'm reviewing.
As expected, the main-pivot idler pulley on the Devinci Chainsaw allows the bike's suspension to be unaffected by chainring size. It doesn't impact how the suspension works ascending or descending, in or out of the saddle and, thanks to the elevated chain stay configuration, there is no contact in any gear ratio. I open with that statement because I want to add a spoiler alert before you scroll further.
If you have a similarly High Pivot + Idler (HP+I), elevated chain stay bike, whether it be a Devinci Spartan, Forbidden Druid, or Trek Slash and you've been pondering playing around with different chainring sizes, I'd encourage you to do it. Nerd out. Explore the 'hidden' advantages of the design. On some of these designs, the idlers are less idle, but it's not going to matter.
I have only two concerns of note. The first is to order the correct chainring offset for your replacement ring. With the different spindle lengths oot & aboot, the offset may not be obvious. If you're not running a lower chain guide with a pulley, consider adding one to increase the number of chainring teeth engaged.
XTR 10-speed cassette with one cog removed, making an 11-36t 9-speed cassette with 10-speed spacing.
SRAM GX 12-speed cable-actuated derailleur, shifter, chain, and crankset achieving a 56.5mm chain line using a 3mm offset ring. Note: a longer low-limit screw is required.
North Shore Billet 24t 3-bolt SRAM-compatible chainring and a Deviate lower chain guide. The bash taco is set to the shortest extension.
Maths
This piece is only nominally about running a smaller chainring on an HP+I bike. The fact I can run any size ring that fits my crankset is a clear advantage of the design, but the smaller chainring is also a means to an end. With the top idler pulley fixing the Chainsaw's chain line at 56.5mm, my goal was to significantly improve the chain angle in my lowest, highest torque, climbing gears.
Just swapping the ring would have allowed me to remain in the middle of my cassette more often, with a much straighter chain. By also switching to a more flexible HG driver and cassette, rather than the stock SRAM XD setup, I was able to optimize my gearing and chain line without massive superfluous cogs.
You may wonder why I chose a 24t chain ring over a 26t or 28t. In truth it was a happy accident. We use a SRAM, 3-bolt compatible NSBillet ring on my daughter's 24" wheeled Marin and I needed to order a replacement for her anyway, so this was the most economical solution.
The Chainsaw delivers a surprisingly comfortable climbing experience.
Now with a much quieter and more efficient feeling low gear.
It's a happy accident because a 24x36t low gear is actually quite similar to the stock 32x52t low gear the Chainsaw ships with. My 24x36t is a little taller, but much easier to spin than the second lowest gear on the stock SRAM setup.
- The stock SRAM GX XG-1275 has a 520% range and jumps: 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-42-52.
- It's a happy accident because a 24x36t low gear is actually quite similar to the stock 32x52t low gear the Chainsaw ships with. My 24x36t is a little harder, but much easier to spin than the second lowest gear on the stock SRAM setup. The other question is higher gears, how much top-end am I giving up by running a 24x11t versus the stock SRAM 32x10t? Again, there's no exact match for gear ratio, but riding in a 24x11t is very similar to pedaling a 32x15t, with the 24t again resulting in a slightly higher gear.
A person considering the same 1x9 conversion would need to do an assessment of how often they find themselves using a gear higher than 32x15t to know if this setup would work for them. In my case, the only time I'm using higher gears on the North Shore is riding to and from the trails.
To answer the most often issued detraction, if I was heading up to the Whistler Bike Park or some other DH locale, I'd quick-link in three more chain links and install a 36t ring for a 1:1 low gear and a 36x11 high gear. It would take five minutes.
Ideally, I'd be running a shorter cage derailleur for ground clearance. I have one, but wasn't inclined to sacrifice it to the SB-157 rear spacing on a bike that's not mine.
A SRAM 12-speed cable actuated drivetrain shifts a Shimano 10-speed HG cassette beautifully. A longer low-limit screw was required to make it work.
Torque Talk
I can't explain this mathematically or in any other way other than anecdotally, but there is something I've experienced on every full suspension bike I've run with a smaller chainring. This includes 28t, 26t, and it's even more notable with the 24t. All three bikes I'm referencing have different travel numbers and suspension designs.I feel this is worth sharing but I'm not claiming anything scientifically rigorous is happening here.
Maybe I'm just so embedded in my feedback loop that I've started my own cult, and I'm also the only adherent? But with the Banshee Titan, my Rifty, and this Devinci Chainsaw, I've noticed that I'm getting better traction in identical or similar gear ratios on a setup with a smaller chainring. For example, climbing a steep loose pitch in a 24x32t I'm much less likely to loose traction than in 32x42t, despite those being essentially the same gear ratio.
With the Marin and Banshee I'd accept that this difference came down to chain ring size influencing how the suspension was reacting to chain torque. Now that I've had the same experience with the Devinci, which in every other way seems to be unaffected by chain ring size, I'm wondering if there's another explanation. It seems to be too large a difference to all be in my head, but if it is then I'll take all the placebo I can get.
Traction monster. With the right amount of support from the suspension to spin up the hill decently to boot.
3-Cogs vs. 2-Idlers
I've purposely excluded pieces about single-speeding over the ten pieces in this series. DTFHFG is about better shifting and drivetrain life, as opposed to squeezing in yet another cog. DTFHFG is not about simpler bicycles. There's still a shifter, even if it's a friction shifter, and there's still a rear derailleur.
For those running an XD or MicroSpline (MS) freehub body that want to try a DTFHFG setup, there's going to be the extra cost and complexitity of jailbreaking their rear hub. Even the cassette is more complicated to install, as aside from LinkGlide, the HG cassettes from ShiRAMano and SunRace come in multiple sections that have to be assembled onto the driver.
On the flip side, I don't think of the Chainsaw as being a particularly complicated bike. It's a linkage-driven single pivot. The seat stay pivot has been moved to the axle for better braking performance, and otherwise, it just has an idler added at the main pivot to compensate for the pivot's placement above the chain ring. I'm also running a lower chain guide but that's nothing new or particularly adventurous either as they've been spec. on DH bikes since I started mountain biking.
I'm infinitely happier pedaling the Devinci uphill in my new straighter chain line low gears and I've yet to even get into the 24x11t except on the road.
I love that this 24t North Shore Billet ring exists. On my daughter's rig, which I've temporarily borrowed it from, the extra ground clearance has proven the biggest advantage.
Upright Update
Since my last Chainsaw update, I've swapped out the brakes for a set of 4-piston Hayes Dominions I'm using as control brakes for future test bikes. I've also added 30mm to the bar height, which meant switching grips, as these were already attached to the bar. And, I've changed out the cassette and chainring to deliver this micro-drive 1x9 setup. I have a few other things I want to play with, but by and large the Devinci and I are getting along very well. Cascading towards my final review a month and a half from now.
The addition of fantastic brakes and the more upright cockpit have both required some changes to the suspension setup. But I feel like I'm approaching a point where it will just be very minor adjustments going forward. However, I have been very tempted to throw my 36mm-stanchioned SR Suntour Durolux on for a comparison.
Step one was to swap to a slightly longer dropper post, mullet rear wheel, and start playing around with cockpit preferences.
Step two was to go up-up-up with the bar height which was a big improvement in riding position. Oh, and upgraded brakes.
I'm infinitely happier pedaling the Devinci uphill in my new straighter chain line low gears and I've yet to shift into the 24x11t except on the road. This makes sense when I consider the bike was also designed as a DH bike running a SRAM 7-spd DH drivetrain, but the key takeaway is that I perceived no difference in suspension performance going from a 32t to a 24t chain ring, which is a nice feature of the HP+I suspension layout.
I've had friends comment on how well the suspension soaks up bumps when I'm sitting down pedaling uphill, and downhill the bike encourages me to ride towards my personal speed limit without being unapproachable at all.
This is an excellent regular rider's rig. I'll get more into this in my final article.
Height - Steve Buscemi-ish
Wait - Patiently
Ape Index - T-Rex
Age - The same as DOS
Favourite Trail(s) every week - Pipeline (thank you Ken!) to Lower Crippler (thank you Andy!)
Favourite Song(s) this week - I'm Your Man. Nick Cave (covering Leonard Cohen)
Favourite Colour - Cosmic Lilac
Bar Width - It depends
Reach & Stack & ETT - It depends
Crank Length - 175mm except when it's 170mm
Wheel Size - Hot For Mullets
Comments
bushtrucker
3 months, 1 week ago
Andrew Major, answering the questions no one’s asking haha.
I do gotta say but, for a while now you’ve been consistently putting out the best content in MTB journalism. Always insightful and most importantly fun to read. Cheers!
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
Ha, I’m almost certain that at least one person was thinking about asking!
Thank you. I’m truly happy (some) folks find (some of) my stuff entertaining. Even if they never plan to stick a rigid fork on their hardtail or a 24t ring on their Super-Enduro bike.
Reply
taprider
3 months, 1 week ago
Make that at least two.
I have been travelling a parallel bike lego path for proper (not gravel) bikepack racing. The purpose has mainly been to save weight (AZTR800 is really only 500 miles of riding and the remaining 300 miles is pushing, lifting and carrying your bike)
What I am really liking is how much quieter and smoother the drivetrain is with a nearly straight chain line with 1x3 or 1x4 with 11 speed spacers. Plus by using an XTR derailleur with a extra short cage made out of Zee and Saint cage plates I get a tonne of ground and mud clearance, and when looking at the bike from the left, the derailleur is hidden behind the brake rotor and people riding on my left side have confused my bike with a singlespeed.
I accept walking uphill a lot more when I have a loaded bikepack rig, but still want a lower gear for regular "North Shore XC" (Andrew gets credit for naming this OG category). So 2x4 might be my ideal set up to keep from using a longer cage rear derailleur. By adding a front XTR sidepull front derailleur and a friction shifter to have a 22x32 granny is lighter than adding a medium size cog (36t+) and a longer rear derailleur cage.
Reply
PowellRiviera
3 months, 1 week ago
Not quite the same but I have a 26 tooth nsb on my Wideangle paired with a 10spd Deore Linkglide 11-43.
Shifts incredibly well. And for me the 26-11 is enough for just about everything. As is the 26-43
As u say, I’ll take the better chainlines for the majority of my riding.
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
I think all my time single-speeding has trained me to be okay with walking/hiking sometimes on steep pitches and being spun out on the road always. 26-11 and chill!
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
All my 2x experiments lately have been with manual shifting so I can use narrow-wide rings in both spots. Shimano had a plan to do shiftable retention-rings (I think they were extra tall teeth rather than n/w) and it’s something that would have been fun to play with.
But yeah, short cage clutch derailleur indexed with 3-4 cogs out back with a friction shifted front so you can adjust the trim for best chain retention. I’m keen.
A note of rear derailleurs from my DTFHFG experiments. I love a Zee mech, I love an XTR mech with a Saint cage, but SRAM’s architecture is more conducive to big jumps. If I was chasing such an experiment I’d be looking for an X0 DH derailleur for the rear.
Reply
Vik Banerjee
3 months, 1 week ago
I'm too lazy to change my functional geared bike setups and spending a lot of time riding SS it's not that easy to wear them out, but when I do I'll come back to all your Less Gears Bike Hacks and see what I can do to rock a sweet chainline.
Thanks for keeping it weird.
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
Hahahaha. Nothing prolongs the life of ANY multi-speed drivetrain better than just riding your single-speed!
Cheers, Vik!
Reply
Jeh
3 months, 1 week ago
I wonder if the traction effect is due to using a much smaller rear cog? Higher chain tension maintains the same torque at the wheel but there will be a different chain angle vs the suspension links. I mean, if people can distinguish between a couple of teeth up front...
I tried to sketch it out but ended up confusing myself; subtle changes at best. But if people notice the change over a couple of teeth up front...
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
Yeah, it's a subtle but notable difference. Or I'm nuts.
Reply
Blofeld
3 months, 1 week ago
I was also thinking about this and I agree that there is probably a change in performance due to the different cog sizes. Some frame designs have dramatically more anti-squat in lower gears.
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
True, but it shouldn’t matter with the HP+I or with my hardtail?!
Reply
Blofeld
3 months, 1 week ago
I haven’t read much else on the Chainsaw so I can’t comment specifically. Changing gears still affects chain angle on an idler bike so I don’t see how they would be totally immune, unless the idler is bolted to the rear triangle..?
As for your hardtail I have no idea! Improvements in efficiency due to chainline are likely negated by the losses due to reduction in the gear sizes (both are reported as being small when measured with a sensor under realistic cycling loads).
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
“Improvements in efficiency due to chainline are likely negated by the losses due to reduction in the gear sizes (both are reported as being small when measured with a sensor under realistic cycling loads).”
The chain line measuremeclaims continue to baffle me. But who am I to argue with science?
Reply
Blofeld
3 months, 1 week ago
Hahaha, what is it you find baffling? The meh amount of watts consumed by cross chaining or the sheer nerdy will required for such pseudoscience to be produced? All I know is that our road riding friends have split some pretty fine hairs to sell $100 bottles of chain lube.
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
That what my brain tells me is added drag and drivetrain wear from awful chainline actualy isn’t.
woofer2609
3 months ago
kind of the same, but I notice this dirtbiking as well; different gears make big differences in traction at the same speed. So it's not only you.
Reply
pbass
3 months, 1 week ago
"Oot and aboot"....should that be read in the voices of Terence and Philip, or groundskeeper Willie?
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
Terence & Philip it is buddy, guy, friend.
Inside joke between me and my spell check software. It’s not neighbourly aboot Canadian spellings.
Reply
Friday
3 months, 1 week ago
Accidental benefit, you're saving a lot of weight on that cassette by not demanding the rear cassette do all the gearing work.
I can't wait for my x01 setup hardtail (bought used) to wear out so I can replace it with a 11-42 HG setup and a 30t front ring. Maybe even get wild and go 28 front and 36 rear. Drivetrain experiments are a lot of fun! I feel like the ATB community is having the most fun with mixing and matching drivetrain components from all decades to create neat setups.
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
When it comes to the bicycles themselves, I think the ATB community is having the most fun in general. All my friction shifting and drivetrain mix-maxing discussions with readers lately have been for ATB products. Most but not all my plus tire and rigid fork conversations too.
In general custom builders and brands who are focussed on ATB are making & marketing bicycles still too, versus the MTB industry on all levels concentrating so much energy on BroPeds. So for folks keen on not just riding mountain bicycles but also nerding out on the machines themselves there’s a draw.
I know my interest is split. I want to ride mountain bicycles (rigid single-speeds and also full-on rigs like the Chainsaw) but I spend my cloud drawing hours thinking about restomods and errand running commuter cargo rigs.
Reply
Geof Harries
3 months, 1 week ago
Can you describe this "ATB community"? What is that?
Reply
BadNudes
3 months, 1 week ago
Well the first rule of the ATB community....
but anyone can join if they ride on and off road, or rigid forks with big tires, or single speed, or friction shifting, bonus points if the frame has extraneous tubes, or all or none of the above, and you ride Any Type of Bike!
Reply
taprider
3 months, 1 week ago
see theradavist.com
" Cruiser, Klunker, ATB. These terms get thrown around a lot and yet they represent pretty much the same thing: a rigid mountain bike. For me, the granularity of these denotations is intriguing. In modern times, these words have people debating about the proper nomenclature for each of these bikes, and there are opinions on every side of this argument. For those curious, I understand that a Cruiser is a coaster-brake bike with no gears and no hand brakes. A Klunker is a rigid mountain bike with gears and hand brakes. An ATB is simply an “all-terrain-bicycle” and was historically used to refer to a mountain bike with flat bars. “ATB” was used to denote a new, increasingly popular form of cycling at the time: “off-road” riding. AKA, riding on dirt, not pavement. Since the genesis of the term “ATB”, it has been co-opted to mean drop bar bikes as well. Being the trend-setter he is, once Ultraromance dubbed these bikes “ATB,” everyone jumped on board. "
and Big Bike has found a way to commercialize it
https://theradavist.com/apply-now-atb-challenge-season-2-fleche-it-out/
and from https://bikepacking.com/plog/atb-manifesto/
...much of the industry seems to be trying to find its way to ATBs by just making the tires bigger on gravel bikes, an attitude that’s essentially just turning the “bigger is more rad, bro” dial...
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
"and Big Bike has found a way to commercialize it"
If you owned a bike company, what better product to make than ATBs? Significantly less broken everything (significantly lower rates of warranty considerations requested), significantly higher wear rate on consumables (tires, brake pads, chains), much less weight-conscious participants than other cycling disciplines.
The only negative I see from a manufacturing perspective is folks aren't likely to choose a new bike over servicing their current rig just to get a 1/2° slacker HTA or 5mm more Reach.
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
Probably everyone pictures something a little different but to me an ATB (Any Type of Bike or All Terrain Bike) invokes the image of a mid-90's Kona steel hardtail. Could have a rigid fork, could have a suspension fork (for a few years they sold them both ways). Could be used for bike packing, could be used for mountain biking, could be used for commuting, could be used for gravel riding.
Some folks might change the tires for different applications, some folks might not. It might have bags or racks, or again, not.
It could be a new bike with fairly modern geo, like a current Kona Unit or it could be an old '93 Marin Team Issue. I've seen a few old Chromag's around with new careers having being been swapped onto semi-slicks and rigid forks for commuter duty and those are some of the sweetest in my book.
Once you remove the survivability factor of getting down black+ trails or the requirement to be the lightest and fastest uphill race rig, it's crazy how versatile a bicycle can be. And it's so neat how many different flavours of bicycles can play together.
-----
My example:
My Waltworks V1 was my mountain bike hardtail:
When my V2 came along, I retired my V1 from active duty as my hardtail mountain bike, I asked Em from WZRD to make a rack for it and add mounts for that and fenders. Then I built it up with 2.6" WTB Ranger tires (the smallest that would fit on my wheels at the time) and used it as an ATB:
I found where and how I was using it I really wanted faster and more efficient gravel-sized rubber, so I laced up narrower rims and switched from running 29x2.6" tires to 700x40c tires.
Should I have picked something in between?! Maybe. It's crazy how much traction one can get out of a set of Schwalbe G-One tires but they wear out quick. Anyway, gravel and light trail this thing still goes and the long wheel base for the genre gives it a smoother and more relaxed ride.
Reply
Squint
3 months, 1 week ago
In an increasingly disposable world, knowing that even a half-decent bike looked after can literally outlive the owner is reassuring.
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
Awesome, and exactly.
------
All that steel-hardtail myth-making comes from somewhere.
kmag76
3 months, 1 week ago
Thanks for posting this!
I also bought this bike as a teenager in the early 90's. It sure brings back memories! and It's crazy to see yours is still in good shape and going strong.
Cooper Quinn
3 months, 1 week ago
In my experience pathfinder pros last *much* longer than the G One Bite. That said, I've got a set of G One R (yes, the GONER) now that strike an amazing balance of speed/rolling resistance and traction. Longevity TBD but early indications are promising.
Reply
BadNudes
3 months, 1 week ago
I'm trying to make Any Type of Bike a thing, because pretty much any type of bike can be an All Terrain Bike. I'm not saying bringing a road bike to the trails is going to be much fun (it could be!), but you should absolutely give it a try on your commuter/hybrid/etc. Or take your trail bike on a 60km gravel cruise... why not? Thanks for playing along! It's all about having fun... an Awesome Time Bike, an Amazing Travelling Bike, whatever you want, y'know?
Reply
Skooks
3 months, 1 week ago
I've got a vintage RM Blizzard that I use as my ATB. That beautiful Reynolds 853 still rides sweet.
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
Ooo. What year of Blizzard?
Skooks
3 months, 1 week ago
1990 I think. Warranty frame to replace the even older blizzard I bought new.
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
I’ve had a few friends ask how much weight I actually saved net (smaller ring, fewer/smaller cogs, less chain links, HG vs. XD freehub). I didn’t put anything on a scale but I will when I reverse the swap to give the bike back and then update this piece.
I was thinking it’s kind of cheating, because the cassette that came off is GX and the one that went on is XTR with Ti cogs. But I bought it (very lightly used) for a lot less than a GX 12-spd cassette so maybe I’m safe?
Reply
handsomedan
3 months, 1 week ago
This might be a silly question, but are the idler cogs chain size specific? Can you run a nine, ten or 11 speed chain on a high pivot bike without running into 12 speed narrow wide idler cog problems?
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
That's a good question. The easy answer is that it would be manufacturer-specific; however, I'd be shocked if any of them have issues with any standard MTB chain. For example, generally speaking, it's not an issue to run 9/10/11/12 speed chains on the same n/w rings.
I do note that NSBillet for example doesn't list optimal chain widths for their idler cogs: https://northshorebillet.ca/collections/idler-pulleys
Reply
handsomedan
3 months, 1 week ago
Sounds good. I know that ns billet specifically optimizes their 12 speed rings for 12 speed chains and doesn’t recommend using an 11 speed chain with their 12 speed rings.
Oneup on the other hand uses one chainring design for all speeds…
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
It depends on which NSBillet rings you’re talking about. For example the 1x11/1x12 ring shown on the Chainsaw here is said to be compatible with all 9/10/11/12 speed SRAM drivetrains and all 9/10/11 Shimano ones:
https://northshorebillet.ca/collections/chainrings/products/1x-11-variable-tooth-direct-mount-chainrings
The HG-12 rings are said to be compatible with Shimano 12spd chains only but it’s not a secret they work great with any 11spd drivetrain there just might be some interface issues with other 12spd chains:
https://northshorebillet.ca/collections/chainrings/products/race-face-cinch-hg12-1x12-speed-direct-mount-chainrings
Reply
roil
3 months, 1 week ago
Thank you for the excellent article. I have been dreaming of a similar setup for far too long.
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
Cheers!
If I was in charge of Devinci for a day I'd be adding an aluminum, made-in-Canada, Druid-esque HP+I bike to the lineup. 130-ish rear, 150-ish front.
I'm really enjoying the Chainsaw, but this drivetrain and these brakes on the Troy HP+I would be my jam.
Reply
roil
3 months, 1 week ago
Did you see Rulezman, the Italian suspension tuner, added a high pivot idler to his Banshee titan? Wondering if something similar couldn’t be added other frames so you could run this setup on any bike.
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
I did. I don’t think I’d chase an idler configuration outside of running a high pivot, but I love that folks are playing with this stuff.
I’ve had good results running small chainrings with a few different suspension designs.
Reply
sbh071
3 months, 1 week ago
If you're using an HG driver why not an 11-speed Shimano XT (M8000) cassette and derailleur? They're still available (in Europe, anyway), and much cheaper than the 12-speed equivalents. I'll be building up a SCOR 2030 frame (55mm chainring but compatible with 52mm) this year, and since I'm coming from an 11-speed Bronson V2 anyway, seriously wondering while reading DTFHFG whether I just stick with 11-speed... you can't miss what you've never had! Thoughts? Many thanks...
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
I’m not sure I understand your query? I’m running a 10-spd Shimano cassette with a cog removed (9-speed with 10-speed spacing) to improve chainline. How would 11-spd benefit me?
Reply
sbh071
3 months, 1 week ago
Understood - you're really focused on minimising gears! I suppose I was wondering about the repeated references to LinkGlide - yes that's 11-speed, but M8000 is available too...
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
LinkGlide is something different from a shifting and compatibility perspective. Chain line wise an 11-spd LinkGlide setup is ~ the same as a 12-spd HG+ drivetrain. From a wear-resistance shifting-under-load perspective, and just from an intercompatibility perspective talking from basic Cues through XT M8130, LG is awesome. From a chain line perspective it’s not an improvement, at least not the XT stuff I’m on.
If the question is why not stick with HG if running an HG driver, then sure, but consider running 10-spd (or 10-spd with the 17t removed) with a Zee derailleur and Saint or XTR (or Zee or XT) shifter. That stuff’s also still available and with the exception of bikes that need a bigger chainring (where I need a bigger cog low gear rather than just running a smaller ring), the Zee setup is my preference.
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
I should plainly note, it’s all just food for thought. As long as you aren’t running SRAM SX*, whatever you’re doing isn’t wrong!
———
*edit: for folks with SRAM SX bikes I’m 50% joking / 50% disappointed in the person who sold you a SRAM SX bike. SRAM should send you a letter of apology and an NX drivetrain. Sorry.
Reply
sbh071
3 months, 1 week ago
Thanks, much appreciated. Followed your Arrival journey with interest, and 140 sounds amazing... pls keep up the great work!
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
Thank you for reading and engaging!
Interested to see more feedback on the SCOR bikes. They’ve certainly captured the imaginations of a few folks I know.
Lu Kz
3 months, 1 week ago
Bah, I always thought shimanos 11 speed 8000 generation (and 7000, for that matter) cassettes were a huge step back from m8xx/m7xx stuff. Fast wearing boat anchors, the lot of them*. You could get a ton of ride time out of those 11 speed xx1/x01/gx 10-42 numbers, but the shimano equivalent would wear out if you sneezed at the wrong time or looked at them funny.
*I'd have no gripe over the weight if it came with increased durability.
I've personally ran quite a few different cassettes to get away from those 11 speed cassettes while maintaining my xtr shift setup.
Seeing as my claymore does clear the e13 9 speed tooth, I'm very tempted by a 9-46 Helix cassette** and move my 11 speed setup over to the big bike. I think that 9t would probably unlock a very happy medium where you could go real small out front and not have to worry about wanting to swap chains and chainrings on a bike that sees a lot of park and shuttle duty.
**if I could find one for a nice price, that is.
Reply
taprider
3 months, 1 week ago
a 9 tooth cog will give you the opposite feeling of the sexy smooth drive train feel you get with a perfect chain line and bigger than 14 tooth cogs
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
Yeah, even the difference going from an 11t to a 10t is fairly atrocious. I wish Shimano had stuck to their guns on not making 10t cogs and why.
If the choice is sitting up to spin an 11t or being able to push a 9t, I’m on 11t every time.
Reply
Lu Kz
3 months, 1 week ago
You're not supposed to spend all your time in the 9t, it's there for when you want a little bit more when already motoring along on shuttle and bike park trails. Does the idea of having a 9t available ruin the 'perfect chainline and bigger than 14t cog' in the zones of the cassette you spend most of your time? Please explain.
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
Issue with the 9t is not chain line related it’s about the chain/cog interface.
To each their own, certainly. I’ve ridden a few e13 cassettes, with good results, but didn’t find I liked how they pedaled in the 9t. It’s comparatively rough and inefficient feeling.
———
*edit: put another way, I’m certain the marketing departments at Shimano and SRAM would have loved to see 9t cogs and the respective 567% and 578% gear ranges. And both XD and MS drivers are compatible. It’s simply not possible to get good ride quality out of a smaller cog than 10t (I’d still argue, along with Shimano of years past, for an 11t minimum).
Reply
Cooper Quinn
3 months, 1 week ago
As a 'bailout' high gear maybe 9t works. But as Andrew notes, its a chain wrap/rotation issue that's the real problem. The smaller the diameter (and thereby tooth count) of a chainring, the more rotation required by each link to make the turn. And this uses power. A tiny driver just EATS watts, and is hard on chains.
Its... actually a bit of an argument against some of Andrew's 'hatred' of big rear cogs - yes, the chainline is worse, but you lose less power through chainline than smaller chainrings.
(yes yes, this only applies to clean drivetrains, what about wear, etc etc etc. all this is in opposition to 9t rings, its not a total disregard for experiments like this Devinci. If you want to feel how bad small gears feel, try my current EVIL, with 23x9.)
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
"Its... actually a bit of an argument against some of Andrew's 'hatred' of big rear cogs - yes, the chainline is worse, but you lose less power through chainline than smaller chainrings"
My understanding is that once your cog is bigger than a 16t or so the difference in power loss from chainring size is so minimal as to be irrelevant. I can't find the reference material but at one time I had something from Shimano explaining why they wouldn't go smaller than 11t cogs and why that was their minimum size.
Certainly, you can feel the drop from 11t to 10t to 9t in terms of how much worse it gets in each size.
------
I can never understand how I seem to be the only person who notices the sucking drag of the lowest gears with 12spd drivetrains, made worse by the move to 55mm chain lines with Boost-148 spacing. I look for references to it all the time in bike reviews and drivetrain reviews.
Is it just that I'm so weak that I'm in those low gears all the time and every other person writing about bikes is massively strong and anything easier than 3rd gear is a bailout only?
The Chainsaw is so much more pleasant with the straight(er) chain line in the low gears. So was the Titan, and so was the Chameleon. I'm starting to think I might be nuts.
Cooper Quinn
3 months, 1 week ago
I did say "a bit of an agrument", because yeah, gains are more marginal beyond a certain size threshold. 9t is definitely the proverbial Rubicon. Pushing hard in a 10t really doesn't feel great either, but treated as a bailout its fine.
From what I've seen (I'll dig for the data, I know some of it is on the internet but I don't remember where), the noises and feelings in low gears with shitty chainline aren't eating a ton of watts, but agreed it can feel crummy.
Cooper Quinn
3 months, 1 week ago
Ah here one of them is.
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/road-racing/gear-issue-friction-differences-between-1x-and-2x-drivetrains/?scope=anon
taprider
3 months, 1 week ago
As the drive train efficiency graph shows, small chain rings and smaller cogs (32 vs 40+) for low gears (or big rings and 13+ vs 11 cogs for high gears) gains us a few watts.
Maybe you think you can't feel the increase in efficiency, but what we are likely feeling is how much quieter and smoother the efficient drive train is? (which is significant as far as more enjoyment in the act of pedalling - so a "real" placebo effect as far as efficiency?)
taprider
3 months, 1 week ago
According to a Zero Friction podcast, the endurobros poo poo the idea of immersion waxing a chain or using $100 Silca lubricants. But, use of such techniques and products prolong the life of your expensive drive train significantly longer, so that they are much more cost effective than the endurobro lubes.
However, the Zero Friction guy added that waxing goes from efficient to not, very quickly, and that for long muddy gravel races that a good (according to his testing) oil lube might start with lower efficiency and be less efficient on average over the length of the race, but would still be more efficient than wax at the end of race when it might be more important. So I suppose, squirting on endurobro lube in vast quantities and doing minimal chain cleaning would work better for the endurobros over the (shorter) life of their chain.
taprider
3 months, 1 week ago
Even if you could move your chainring out to get a good chain line with a 9 tooth cog. You would still have more chain retention or skipping problems than larger cogs (even with your clutch cranked) over rough terrain (bike park vs a sprint on pavement) and as your chain wears.
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
WTF are “Endurobro lubes” supposed to be? You think the folks at Boeing or Dumonde aren’t nerds?
It’s not like I’m recommending Drew-Bob’s Basement Brand.
taprider
3 months, 1 week ago
No, Muc-Off, Finish Line etc. that Zero Friction Adam was talking about when responding to a mountain biker podcast that was dissing his results
I think it is this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrwBO243B5k "The worst chain lubrication advice corrected" response to The Just Riding Along show (it is too long, so I didn't watch the whole thing)
PS; I like DumondeTech
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
In my household we’ve found the combination of a wider range 10spd cassette, 10spd Shimano shifter, 11spd Shimano chain, and an 11spd Shimano derailleur to be ideal. For example, my wife has an 11-46t SunRace setup.
I ratchet a lot and find the chain retention better with 10spd in the low gears plus an improved life from cheaper cassettes whether SunRace or Shimano.
Reply
Steven Hambleton
3 months, 1 week ago
Advent X? I've always been intrigued by this groupset - I think the 11-48T cassette is one piece though? Would be interesting as an 11-42T with the biggest cog removed to make it a 9sp.
Reply
Skooks
3 months, 1 week ago
Doesn't "High Pivot" imply an idler cog? I'm trying to imaging a HP design that doesn't require an idler but I can't think of one.
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
There are small builders still building jack-shaft style high pivot bikes (two chains) although that may be a questionable distinction vs. an idler.
The Starling Sturn V2 is a neat example:
Historically, though, there are many examples of High Pivot bikes that did not use an idler so I think it's still important to specify when talking about an HP+I bike rather than assume.
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
It's actually sort of crazy to think how full suspension designs would have evolved if 1x drivetrains had become the norm a decade or two before they did. Just looking at single pivot bikes (high, mid, and low) like Foes, Mountain Cycle, Orange, Cannondale, and etc. that were having to compromise their suspension systems around a triple chainring.
Reply
Jerry Willows
3 months, 1 week ago
I think the old SC Super 8 had a high pivot as well.... the kickback was atrocious.
I'm really liking your Chainsaw!
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
High and forward. Very Mountain Cycle.
Reply
Peter Leeds
3 months, 1 week ago
My riding partner back in the day had a Mountain Cycle Shockwave and got rid of it after 2 months. Like riding a pogo stick. Terrible chain pull. Brake jack is something new riders will have to find out with this design.
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
@Peter Leeds, which new design?
The Devinci Chainsaw in the photos in my article uses a Split Pivot suspension design (pivots at the rear axle) and is fantastic under heavy braking.
The idler at the main pivot in an HP+I design manages the issue of chain growth.
Perry Schebel
3 months, 1 week ago
yeah, i had one of the OG's (well 2, actually, both broke). they were... not great in terms of pedal kickback (esp. back in the slow speed wheelie-drop to flat days)
Reply
Jerry Willows
3 months, 1 week ago
I think it was 98 or 99 but I pedaled around a Bullit and Super8 and much preferred the Bullit.... I did take a spin of Shandro's M1 from DC Bike Shop around the same time and it was miles ahead in terms of feel.
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
I mean, look at the size of the chain ring it was designed around! The smaller the ring you put on it the worse the kick-back would have been.
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
"I'm really liking your Chainsaw!"
Sadly it's not mine Jerry, it's just living with me for a little while. But it is rad.
Don't panic though, plenty of rigid single-speed content coming in 2024! #JerryWillowsHatesMyBike
Reply
Jerry Willows
3 months, 1 week ago
NSMB needs a filter
Peter Leeds
3 months, 1 week ago
I had 2 Foes Flys and there was no compromise, at all. The pivot was low to minimize the effect of pedalling and the floating brake gave 100% braking efficiency. In fact, it is my favourite suspended bike of all time, although the Knolly Podium is a better design. What really helped the Foes was the Curnutt shocks' platform technology on the pedalling, which also deadened the small bump compliance as well.
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
A possibly interesting aside. The first prototypes of the Podium used a high(er) main pivot and idler configuration.
I suspect when they launch a new Podium it will be an HP+I bike and then there'll be a bunch of folks talking about bandwagons and whatnot. But it's not new territory for the 4x4 folks.
It even has swap-outs for adjustable chainstay length. Shorten that seat tube, stretch the reach out a couple centimeters in each size, and call it the new bike?! I think it looks rad.
Reply
Skooks
3 months, 1 week ago
Thanks. That Starling is a beauty!
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
No doubt! Starling's side project bikes are always neat.
I've never met an eccentric-pivot-around-the-BB bike that I liked, but I keep waiting for one of my single-speed friends to buy a Beady Little Eye so I can take a spin.
I know there are significantly lighter ways to single-speed a full suspension bike (having done it quite a few times) but there's something about this 0mm-sag, 90mm-travel machine that has a certain appeal. Custom geo, so design it around a 120mm R7 and go.
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
Just a funny same-as-it-ever-was aside. I was perusing a 1995 Kona catalogue for something unrelated and noticed this image on page 12 that has a 'shocking' resemblance to the Iron Horse HP above.
------
Anyways, I was going to say that I don't remember Kona ever selling high-pivot rigs, but that's not true as the Stab DH bike was an HP (with a floating brake but no idler).
Reply
vantanclub
3 months, 1 week ago
Bernard Kerr was running two chains on a Pivot this year.
Reply
Kristian Øvrum
3 months, 1 week ago
As far as I can see, a 12 speed SRAM XD cassette has a cog spacing of 3.65 mm, while a 10 speed cassette from Shimano or SRAM has 3.95 mm. Based on the difference in cog spacing I wouldn't expect shifting that could be described with the word "beautifully".
Reply
Andrew Major
3 months, 1 week ago
I don’t have a good answer for you. Mathematically I understand it doesn’t work. Normally I’d run a friction shifter to unlock a project like this. It’s the second Eagle bike I’ve used this 9-of-10 speed cassette on with a good experience.
Obviously can’t guarantee it’ll work for anyone/everyone but I have a number of rides on the bike with this setup.
Reply
Please log in to leave a comment.