Long Term Review
2023 Trek Fuel EXe 9.9 XX1 AXS
Unlike some folks, I like surprises. Moments of shock and wonder are harder won in the age of the internet. On top of our over-exposure to images and videos that make us gasp, we are often told by marketers that EVERYTHING is amazing, which is a foolproof recipe for disappointment. The Fuel EXe has bucked that trend and continued to surprise me, but not just the electricified elements of the bike. When I'm riding it downhill, there is nothing about the feeling that suggests I'm on an eMTB. It feels like a regular bike. Actually that's not true. It feels like an extremely well-sorted, fast and capable regular bike.
If you missed my launch article, I got into a lot of the details about the bike there, and in particular the remarkable TQ motor that runs smoothly most of the time,* provides power as naturally as any eMTB I've ridden, and is as quiet as a ninja in a library.
*more on that below
I did a ride the other day with a bunch of buddies and the majority were on bikes with 170 mm of travel front and rear or more. Somebody commented on me being on a bike with 160/150 mms of travel, which is what I'd thought much earlier, before I had any info about the bike. In fact it is 150/140 but I double-checked that to be sure when I got home - because at times that doesn't seem possible. We rode some very rowdy trails and I was totally happy on the Fuel EXe, including on one of the fastest trails we ride regularly.* It's peppered with bumps and repeated hits and it's a trail I often struggle with on any bike, unless my suspension, and my fork in particular, has the damping set up perfectly. Yesterday I managed to stay with a hard-riding buddy on a Specialized Enduro for the whole trail - and the Exe felt great.
*Most North Shore trails aren't fast at all, so my suspension is rarely set up for speed, and particularly high velocity trails with frequent and repeated high intensity impacts.
Bony bits aren't too much for the Fuel EX-E, and that has nothing to do with the electrified nature of the bike. The bike's performance makes me very curious about the naturally powered version.
CH- CH- CH- Changes
I have made two significant swaps on the bike and one of them has made a huge difference to the DH performance. The fine folks at Obsession:Bikes swapped out the Bontrager SE5 tires for some Continental Kryptotal tires and added Cushcore at the same time.* The results were immediate and spectacular. I had more cornering confidence, better braking control in low grip situations and I was carrying more speed and even a little bravado. The SE5s just didn't cut it in the wet I'm afraid but the Kryptotals have been excellent in every situation thus far, and Cushcore takes them to the next level. Unless you live in Arizona, or somewhere similarly dry and loose, I'd be swapping out the tires on day one. If you saw my first impressions review, you may recall that one factor in the crash that led to some frame damage (more on that below) was slippery rubber (the other factor was the rider).
*The mechanics went to war with this set up because of the narrow channels in the plastic Bontrager TLR rim strips. In fact they ripped them out and used tape because it's such a challenging combo. My recommendation would be to do the same so you aren't stuck doing an impossible flat repair a long way from home.
These have the downhill soft compound and a downhill casing. They have been excellent.
I'm pretty good with most rim and tire combos, including DH tires and inserts, but I have been defeated at the side of the trail in the past by the narrow channels in Trek's TLR rim strips. The lack of space makes it difficult to drop the bead down completely, and if one side drops, there's no room for the other side. They are convenient and leak-free but I'd recommend swapping them for tape at the first opportunity because some combos are a next-level challenge with these.
Obviously eMTBs climb well on the juice, but this one does okay even with the power turned down to zero.
The rear tire digs in well and, despite then short-ish chainstays, it's easy to keep the front end down.
All Those Batteries
For the second time since I've had the Fuel (about 10 months) I've had to swap the batteries in SRAM's wiz components; Tyrewiz, which monitors your tire pressure, both with a flashing indicator light and a bluetooth connection to your phone, and Airwiz, which does the same for your front and rear suspension pressures. And while I have ridden the bike a lot, it has been sporadic, with other test bikes and products taking up my time as well. And TBF, I replaced the original batteries with cheapos off Amazon (in my defence, they had lots of stars). Swapping them isn't that much of a big deal (see below for details), but it isn't nothing either and my to do list is already pretty strained.
A Torx T6 is required to swap the battery in the rear Airwiz pressure monitor. And if I didn't have this micro-bit driver from my Topeak Rocket Rachet tool, I would likely have had to remove the top shock mounting bolts. Photo - Cam McRae
What is NBD to some, might be for others, so I should dig in a little. The battery cover for Airwiz on the Rock Shox Super Deluxe Ultimate rear shock requires a tiny Torx T6 tool. I happened to have a T6 bit in a new kit I purchased to work on my car, and it also fit in a Topeak mini ratchet I use regularly. With a larger tool, which means virtually any other tool, I would have had to remove the top shock mounts to access the rear-most bolt on the cover. On the fork side, there are three tiny Phillips bolts (or possibly JIS?) you need to remove to access the battery. Be careful about choosing the right tool here, because sometimes a larger tool seats better for a smaller fitting because of the angle, depth, and taper of the slots, as was the case for me. I had no trouble here but I was sure to be very careful.
The wired version of this wireless derailleur is a double-edged sword; it doesn't require a separate battery, or charger, but it won't change gears at all if your bike runs down its battery completely, or is turned off. Thankfully you can steal the AXS battery from your seat post in a pinch, but that's not as simple as it sounds.
The batteries for TyreWiz are an easy tool-free swap in theory, but one has been a little finicky as well. On my recent battery swap, the carrier for the dead battery on the rear unit fell out with the battery when removed. I struggled to get it to fit in perfectly afterwards and wasn't able to get it to power up until I came back to it with more time the following day.
The upside of these monitors is, in theory at least, when you are ready to jump on your bike, at a glance you can confirm the lights are blinking green to know your tire and suspension pressures are within range, or check your phone to get the actual PSI reading. I usually check all of my pressures before every ride so this can be a real time saver. Once I had changed the batteries however, I had to re-pair the components which was as trouble free and simple as bluetooth components normally are(!)
I haven't yet had to swap the CR2032 coin cell battery in any AXS controller, and some of my components have been in service for more than two years. Since I've swapped to SRAM Transmission on the Fuel Exe, the current batteries have only been in there for three trouble-free months.
This is a cable tie attaching the wired AXS adapter to the upper stay but I didn't reef it down securely so I can't say if it can be done with confidence. I'd prefer a two-sided hook and loop strap - elasticized ideally - so I could cover it completely. The battery was stolen from the seatpost. This is a provisional strategy to use if you deplete the main battery of the Fuel EXe because if that happens, no shifting is going down.
CORRECTIONS HERE
The one area this bike doesn't have a battery is a little unusual: the AXS rear derailleur (since swapped to AXS Transmission I am currently testing). Instead, the battery is hard-wired to the main battery. Strangely, I haven't noticed this mentioned in any marketing material, or even on the website. I haven't completely emptied the battery on a ride but I have jumped on and attempted to shift with the power off. The unresponsive derailleur made me think I'd forgotten to check my AXS battery and I felt a thud in my gut thinking my ride was ruined.
NOTE: I have since been informed that the battery is programmed to keep enough power in reserve for 300 shifts. I have yet to verify this and try it myself but I plan to do so.
Fortunately, for this model at least, there is a temporary solution to the problem of powerlessness, assuming one of your other power sources still has some charge. You can pull the battery out of the AXS post and put it on your derailleur temporarily, if you have some way of securing the dangling AXS wired interface to your bike so it doesn't destroy itself or the paint on your bike (a zip tie seems to work passably). This is a pretty big miss to me because this is a bike that pedals quite well without any added watts. I've climbed some decent hills on the bike in meat-mode and lived to tell the tale, even with heavy tires and Cushcore.
NOTE: I also initially thought the battery was required to use the bike, but it turns out there is a piece that I wasn't provided that allows you to do this. You'll have to sort out your rear derailleur for this model, because it definitely won't work with no battery installed but losing a nice chunk of weight could make this a great regular bike to pedal as normal.
I really enjoy riding this bike downhill. And uphill for that matter.
The Ride
As I've already mentioned, this is a bike that handles burly terrain better than its travel numbers would suggest. One thing I attribute that to is the balanced and planted suspension feel. I regularly get to the top of moves that should be scary on a bike with 150 and 140mm of travel, and discover they are NBD. These same qualities give the bike cornering composure and maneuverability, at any speed. The place where I generally expect bikes with slightly less travel (than my usual entitlement) to struggle, is at speed where things get chunky. The Fuel EXe bucks that trend and manages rather well in beefy situations, despite the relatively compact 440mm chainstays for all sizes. There is no subsitute for suspension travel but the EXe squeezes more performance than most out of the millimetres its been allotted.
CAN BE MULLETED!
Like most Trek full suss bikes, the Fuel EXe has a mino link to swap between low and high positions. If you'd like to turn the back into a party, just swap the link to the high position so your BB isn't too low and your head angle isn't too slack (assuming that's even possible!) and apparently you'll be golden. I already found this bike to turn in well and to be nicely maneuverable so I had no desire to make this swap but if it was a little closer to the edge of my reach range it would have been a nice option.
This tool works very well but it would be nice if it was both better protected from the elements and more resistant to corrosion. On other Trek models I've had the BITS Integrated tool, which includes a chain breaker, be a little sticky to remove. This one came out smoothly most every time.
When the tool is in position it's nice and clean. The D-ring pulls up so you can get good purchase for removal.
Componentry and Extras
I really like the Integrated BITS tool which has most of the fittings you need to adjust or tighten most of the fittings on your bike, as well as a chain tool. It deploys quickly from the head tube of your bike but stays in place quietly and securely. I was happy with the Bontrager XR Trail Elite, nylon lock-on grips, the Line Pro 30 wheels, and extremely pleased with the RockShox Lyrik Ultimate up front and the Super Deluxe Ultimate RC2 with the Charger 3 damper.
The integrated chain guide did its job, as did the little mudguard - which I believe is designed to keep debris out of the space between the chainstays and the frame.
The Motor
I was very impressed with the TQ motor initially, and those warm feelings have mostly become fuzzier after more use. With one exception, the motor has continued in hushed tones and is generally undetectable, both to me, others in the group, or random trail users. For better or worse, most people don't notice I'm on an eMTB on the EXe, and I don't mind keeping up that charade unless I'm asked straight out, or if I pass someone on a climb, when I'll say, "sorry! I'm cheating." Sadly, I don't think it makes either of us feel any better.
The natural power application, which rewards more effort by progressively multiplying your force deep into the power stroke, rather than peaking early like some others, seems to feel even better over time.
One thing I've begun to notice is a bit of lag that is more noticeable than other eMTBs I've ridden. It's not a big deal, but occasionally it's somewhat awkward when the power arrives later than I expect.
Those subtle fins at the bottom bracket are about the only tip off that you're pushing watts there weren't earned the hard way, unless someone notices the small display on the top tube.
Another small issue I've had is a subtle and infrequent shudder under power accompanied by a low rumble that seems to come in slow waves. It's not loud or obtrusive but it feels like something isn't quite right. On my last ride I noticed it on a steep road climb after about five minutes of riding, for a minute or so, and then never again for the duration of the ride. Some rides I don't notice it at all. One thing I heard was that this is a known issue that TQ is going to address with a firmware update. I wondered if there was some service required but none of the documentation I found from Trek or TQ suggests any user serviceability of the motor.
Overall, this engineering marvel has continued to be quiet, smooth, powerful, natural-feeling and reliable. The 50nm of torque is more than enough to get you to the top of the hill in much less time than usual, but not enough to keep up with a full-powered eMTB with 85-108nm, for better or worse depending on your perspective.
I'm hopeful more eMTB motors move to some sort of concentric design in the future - including full power bikes - eliminating the whine most other motors currently produce. Apparently TQ has had something like this for years, pulsing at 120 nm of torque, but it's clearly less refined than the TQ-HPR50 and likely is waiting for an update.
The teeter in a canoe on Boogieman isn't something I ride every time but the Fuel EXe was up to the challenge - even with a dusting of frost on the ancient chain-suspended plank.
Downsides
Before I dig into this, I want to emphasize that this has been the most trouble-free eMTB I've spent a decent amount of time on. The battery and motor have been flawless in operation (with one small exception I'm about to get to in more detail) and most of the componentry has been similarly cooperative.
I have a couple of component gripes though. I found the saddle to be an absolute ass hatchet. It's a Bontrager Arvada, with austenite (stainless) rails, and 138mm width. That narrow width kept it out of the way while descending but on the way up, my bum wasn't happy. I swapped it out for a WTB Devo w/pickup which is a saddle with a built in handle, designed for eMTBs, and it's a joy to sit upon.
This shot highlights a couple minor complaints; the uncomfortable saddle and the 170mm seatpost on a size large frame. Give the long-legged people 200mm (at least)! I have just been riding with the saddle about an inch too low for the time I've had the bike, which I actually don't mind. Otherwise I would have swapped in a conventional OneUp or BikeYoke 34.9 post.
If, like me, you appreciate the longevity, smooth rotation, and reliability of a good headset, you might need to upgrade this already-pricy bike. The headset that comes installed has no visible markers identifying the model or make and the website is similarly mum. I don't recall ever seeing a bike spec. listing that omits the headset entirely but that is the case here. TBF, I haven't had any problems with the headset, but I'm skeptical of anything a company won't put its name on. Trek's house-brand Bontrager wheels, handlebars, grips, saddle, and tires are generally solid and they make for some profitable vertical integration, where most companies have to pay other brands to build those pieces for them. At the very least, this bike should come with a high quality Bontrager-branded headset that the company would like to brag about, rather than saving a few bucks. I'd prefer a Chris King personally, since I haven't encountered anything better, particularly for a bike at this price.
SRAM makes a 200mm dropper post (edit: but not an AXS version) but Trek put a 170 on this bike - on both size large and XL - and it's simply not enough for most taller riders. I prefer 210-220 at this point but 200 would do in a pinch.
There are no markers or any sort of identification I can find on this headset. It's not even clear if it's Bontrager-branded or simply no-name.
What's worse is that the headset isn't even listed in the parts spec on the Trek website. It's possible the lowest EXe and this top-of-the-line model have the same headset and the same bearings. On a bike that costs 18,300 CAD I expect nothing less than Chris King. Photos - Dane Perras
I have yet to determine if the aforementioned periodic motor vibration and increased volume is something mechanically wrong or something electronic. At this point there isn't any recommended motor maintenance that either TQ or Trek are willing to trust to consumers - at least according to the documentation I have found and the questions I have asked. The answer I got about this from a Trek engineer, through Travis Ott in marketing, was; "Since you have one of the very first bikes, there’s a likelihood of outdated software or a mismatch between battery and motor* causing this. Usually the shudder is coming from the electric motor itself, nothing mechanical. I would recommend a software update, for sure." I haven't yet done a software update, which I assume would be a job for a Trek dealer.
*a software mismatch that is
I usually like WTB saddles but this Devo w/ pickup is one of my favourites, and a huge improvement over what came stock. I'm not sure about the the hole for the handle when things get muddy, but so far it's been both handy and comfy. Photo - Cam McRae
This wasn't a downside for me but some riders won't appreciate the one-piece bar and stem if the back sweep (7º) and up sweep (6º) aren't perfectly to their liking because there is no way to adjust those. I really liked it and I found the 45mm stem length was Goldilocks for me as well. You can also use the integrated Blendr eyelet to attach either a single or double GoPro-compatible bracket to carry a light, computer, or POV cam, or any two of the three .
The one-piece RSL bar and stem on the size Lg. Fuel EXe came 820mm wide. I cut it down to 760, expecting it to be too stiff at that width but I found it quite comfortable, right down to the 7º back sweep and 6º upsweep and 45mm effective stem. Photo - Dane Perras
Range
I've done some long rides on the Fuel EXe, often keeping the bike mostly in ECO and covering a lot of ground over several hours. Unfortunately I'm not one who generally records my rides, but I did learn that in the lowest setting I had enough juice to go for three or four hours of riding, with a lot of climbing, and I came home with battery to spare. I realized this wasn't good enough information for many people and I recorded a ride up to the top of Mount Fromme from my place near 29th and Lonsdale, and back. Riding this bike with the boost off (but power on so you can shift) is no problem, but I kept the bike in High (tuned to the highest power as well) for the entire ride, up and down, the goal being to use as much battery as possible.
I don't often record my rides but I realized this could be useful information for some people. On this outing I did my best to drain the battery as fast as possible, by keeping the motor in high, climbing from home on the road and then mostly on singletrack to the highest trails on Mt. Fromme and then kept the motor on all the way home. If a 90 minute quick and dirty ride, with lots of climbing, isn't enough for you, the TQ HPR battery extender will add another 45% or about 40 minutes. Obviously if your climbs are lower grade you'll get a lot more time and distance so this is probably close to a worst case scenario.
I got home with 21% battery left after covering just shy of 13 km,* having climbed fairly steep singletrack until the 6th switchback and then I continued up the fireroad, working hard in my fashion so the motor was doing it's best as well. As you can see from my ride screenshot above, the computer figured I had 19 km left in Eco, 15 in Mid, and 9 in High. Clearly I didn't have 9 km left climbing in high, at least not on steep singletrack, but I certainly could have completed another decent loop before my coast home. For the riding I have done on this bike, and considering I haven't yet ridden with anyone on a similar bike, the range has been great for me. I know that if I want power for a nice long ride I'll need to manage my boost levels, and I also realize that in a pinch I can just pedal home with the boost off and the power on, so I can use the rear derailleur. If this wasn't enough for me I could purchase the optional 160 wh Range Extenderthat fits in your water bottle cage - for 790 CAD/ 660 USD which weighs 950g.
*North Shore kilometres are like dog years
I did a similar ride yesterday on the Norco Sight VLT, with significantly more off-road climbing and with the 900 Wh battery installed, and used only one bar of five.
If you missed my first impressions piece you won't know that I had a mishap while shooting photos for that article that resulted in the bike slamming into a rock and cracking. The crack was small but significant enough to require repair or replacement, although I was able to ride the bike down half off 5th Horseman without drama. I took it to Rob Mulder of Roberts Composites for a consultation and he said, "well, I'll just fix it!" So instead of shipping new stays from Waterloo Wisconsin the carbon was repaired by Rob and Torsten in no time. Normally they would colour match to get it as close to good as new as possible but I wanted it quick. And actually I like this better, which is why I asked Rob to sign it. Rob has never had one of his frame repairs fail and my confidence in his work is bulletproof.
This photo was taken of the the move I bailed on, shortly after I dusted myself off and went up to do it again. I tried to ride on the edge of the rock closest to the camera on my first attempt but my front wheel slipped off the edge at the top and the bike went flying riders left while I went down into the rock wall. It was likely 95% rider error but the Bontrager SE5 tires get a small portion of the blame because they are not great in the wet. The bike fell 6 feet or more directly onto a rock so the damage wasn't unexpected.
Who To Ride With
I asked this question in my first impressions article and my answer hasn't changed. This bike seems to be applicable to four categories of rider: those who ride alone and want an eMTB that feels as close as possible to a raw MTB, riders who have enough money to buy any bike that turns their fancy, mountain bikers with friends who also have Fuel EXes or similar smaller-battery, lower-powered eMTBs, or the group of riders who, for whatever reason, want to keep riding with a group of friends who don't ride eMTBs but who are no longer fast and fit enough to keep up to without a power boost.
I have used this bike riding with former elite XC racers, shuttling, and riding solo and it's been well suited to each of those applications. Riding with others on large-battery, full-power eMTBs is a recipe for being left in the dust, particularly on longer rides without the optional supplemental battery.
Apps
There are two apps you can use on either Google or Apple phones with the Fuel EXe: the Trek Central app and the SRAM AXS app. Trek Central will pair with Tyrewiz and Airwiz, but not with other AXS components, while the AXS app will connect with all of them.
Typos in apps don't inspire confidence, as in "save successfully" but we're all human. Worse though was that nothing was actually "save successfully" no matter how many times I tried restarting my phone or the app. I checked the next day and there was a new version of the app but the problem persists.
In theory this is useful stuff. Once you wake these apps you can monitor your pressures and in the AXS app you can choose what the buttons on the AXS controllers do. You can, for example, have upshifting on the right side and down shifting on the left, using the top buttons, and seatpost actuation on both sides using the lower buttons. There's also the option to allow a long hold on the controller to shift through two, three, or all the cogs at once, unless you are on an eMTB; the app makes it clear that activating the "shift all" mode will void your warranty if you ride an eMTB.
As with most Bluetooth devices I use, these seem to be haunted. An example is that all of the Wiz components, Tyre and Air, hooked up perfectly to the Trek Central app, while I couldn't get the rear TyreWiz to register with the AXS app at all today (or the next day). It also thought the Tyrewizzers were on another bike I had previously entered into the app, despite it not having any pressure monitors.
Meanwhile, the Trek Central app wouldn't save my target pressure after multiple tries and a restart. It would allow me to save, confirm I had saved, and then stick a tongue out and tell me to bugger off when I went to check if it had worked. Again, restarting the app and the phone failed to produce better results. The app also couldn't recognized the Fuel EXe as a real bike, just like Pinocchio. Perhaps the tester we received was pre-production and was left out of the appropriate database, or maybe told too many lies.
Riding into the old school line on Boogieman.
That Price tag
You don't have to be good at math(s) to realize you could purchase more than ten 1650 CAD Trek Roscoes for the price of one Fuel EXx 9.9 XX1 AXS. In fact it's slightly more than eleven of them. For that you get a lot of expensive bits that push the price of this bike to the stratospheric price of 18,300 CAD/14,000 USD. One example is Tyrewiz. At retail these devices sell for 214 USD per wheel. Airwiz is even more exclusive. Since it was co-developed by Trek and RockShox, and because it's integrated into the fork or shock, you can't currently purchase it unless it comes on a bike you are buying from Trek. That likely adds substantially more to the MSRP than Tyrewiz.
Beyond pressure monitoring, there are some pricy bits included on this bike. The carbon Bontrager RSL Integrated handlebar/stem is 5 bucks shy of 5 hundo Canuck bucks retail or 367 USD. Add the Bontrager Line 30 wheels, the SRAM AXS drivetrain and AXS seatpost and you've got the makings of a comments-under-article gong show.
The sort-of good news is that you don't need to go nearly that deep to get the essence of this bike, which revolves around the TQ motor, the solid geometry, and the excellent suspension performance. The 'base' model at 8400 CAD/ 6500 USDwill save you 9900 CAD or 8400 USD. I haven't ridden the RockShox Gold fork or a recent Deluxe Select+ rear damper, but my suspicion is that they are entirely serviceable in this application.
This is a bike I will miss riding regularly. Photo: Dane Perras
Final Thoughts
Some of the tech surrounding this bike, mostly the peripherals rather than the motor, battery and internal electronics and switches, remind me a little of my 17-year-old BMW. There are some great ideas and some that seem more like flexes, but, because these are technologies in their infancy, they don't always work as advertised. The apps, the wired derailleur, and the bluetooth connections for the pressure monitors each have some flaws, but none of them are as difficult to sort out or as catastrophic as those in the Bimmer.
Thankfully, the heart of this bike, the motor and battery and associated displays, controls, and connections, have been close to flawless. The bike itself, in terms of geometry, kinematics, and suspension performance also gets very high marks, with a platform that punches above its weight when things get rough thus remaining nimble and precise, while riding more like an un-boosted bike than an eMTB.
There is a lot to love about the motor as well, with its hushed operation, ample power for a light eMTB, and its natural feel. When you add excellent pedalling performance with the boost turned to zero, you have a winning platform. In many ways this feels like a preview of the future of eMTBs as weight comes down.
Height - 6'/183cm (mostly legs)
Weight - 170lbs/77kg
Inseam - 33"/84cm
Ape Index - 0.986
Age - 58
Trail I've been stoked on lately - Sam's Dad's Trail
Bar Width - 760mm
Preferred Reach - 485-500mm (longer with 27.5 wheels than 29)
Comments
Cr4w
10 months, 1 week ago
So it's nearly $19000 CAD ebike whose frame broke but good news it isn't too heavy and can occasionally keep up with a regular long travel bike downhill if the stars align. Nothing like spending that kind of money and having to replace saddle and high durometer tires and too-short dropper right away and probably the no-name headset too. How much exactly does a bike have to cost before the customer gets some choice of components to make their bike suitable to where they ride? It feels like 19k would be where you should get everything you want without exception.
Reply
Cam McRae
10 months, 1 week ago
You sir, ask good questions.
But… the bike didn’t break. Some guy posing for photos broke it. Imagine grabbing a bike by the front wheel and flinging it like a sledge hammer from a couple of metres up onto a pointy rock and having it smash against the smallest member on the frame. And then afterward have it still rideable down a gnarly trail without incident.
You can’t place any fault on Trek in that instance.
Also - my point wasn't that it was keeping up with long travel bikes. It was keeping up with longer travel bikes. It's the most capable 140mm rear travel bike - E or not - I have ridden.
Reply
Suns_PSD
10 months, 1 week ago
What a well done review Cam.
Reply
Cam McRae
10 months, 1 week ago
Thanks very much!
Reply
Kos
10 months, 1 week ago
Great review. Agree with most of it, including the very occasional shudder/loud volume of the motor.
"One thing I've begun to notice is a bit of lag that is more noticeable than other eMTBs I've ridden. It's not a big deal, but occasionally it's somewhat awkward when the power arrives later than I expect."
This is tunable in about two seconds on the Trek Central App. If I can do it, ANYBODY can do it! You know, provided it recognizes your bike.
Reply
Cam McRae
10 months, 1 week ago
Thanks!
Maybe one day it will become a real, like Pinocchio!
Reply
93EXCivic
10 months, 1 week ago
I can't get over the fact that this is 9500USD more then the most expensive car I have ever bought for myself (and I am pretty sure it has more electronics...)
Reply
Cam McRae
10 months, 1 week ago
I am just starting to test a bike from another brand that has top end suspension and brakes, good aluminum rims, and a great cable actuated drivetrain and dropper. It's a smart build and there are no batteries on this bike (which is a great contrast to the EXe) and it still costs 8400 USD or 12,300 CAD.
High performance bikes have indeed become expensive.
While I was checking the Canadian retail for that bike I happened to notice that the shop had a Scott Spark for 20,499 CAD. Haysoos!
Reply
mrbrett
10 months, 1 week ago
I remember the first time I saw a bike price, expressed in $/month and knew that was the beginning of the end of sanity.
Reply
Alex D
10 months, 1 week ago
What's curious to me is that a lot of these parts (droppers and carbon rims in particular) have gotten cheaper. Where's the money going?
Reply
93EXCivic
10 months, 1 week ago
I am admittedly a cheapskate but working in engineering and manufacturing for 10 years now I struggle to see how these bikes in anyway justify their cost but this cost more then a lot of performance motorcycles. Maybe a bit of unfair comparison but both are two wheel somewhat niche market items.
Reply
LWK
10 months, 1 week ago
I think its just supply and demand. and now that supply is catching up and demand leveling off I've seen some substantial price reductions.
People dont seem to like the moto comparison but I agree with you. I was in some moto shops this spring and the sales people said they did see a price increase during COVID but it was only around 10-15%. Which seems at most half of what we had to put up with with the same cost factors in play such as overseas manufacturing and shipping.
Reply
Brian Tuulos
10 months, 1 week ago
Moto industry is what, 50x as big as MTB? ...and there are like 5 moto manufactures. Where MTB has 50X manufacturers.
Reply
Cam McRae
10 months, 1 week ago
Another contrast between Moto and MTB is frame SKUs and construction, at least if we are comparing carbon with what... chromoly? KTMs at least are made of Chromo. I'm sure they are somewhat involved but because of the scale it may even be automated (some certainly are based on a quick internet look), seriously lowering the cost per unit. Carbon frames AFAIK are still laid up by hand using skilled workers.
When you add the fact that bike frames have up to 6 different sizes per model requiring different moulds and tooling and we have a very different cost structure.
Reply
LWK
10 months, 1 week ago
these things are all true. but they were also true 4 years ago so they dont explain what we've experienced with bicycle pricing.
handsomedan
10 months, 1 week ago
Outside of a few manufacturers in North America (GG, we are one etc.), how much do you think those skilled workers are being paid?
My hunch is not much, especially in vietnam and china.
Cam McRae
10 months, 1 week ago
LWK - That's a good point but I'm not familiar with what has happened with motorcycle prices in that time.
HD - it would be nice to have some transparency about those issues. I'd like to think factories owned by companies like Pon (Santa Cruz's factory) uphold internationally accepted labour standards and pay their workers fairly but it would a different story if a company buys from an establish foreign owned factory.
Stephen
10 months, 1 week ago
What Cushcore inserts did you end up installing? Front and Rear, and why?
I'm of the opinion tire inserts get more relevant as bike/rider weight increases, and skill level too.
Which trail on the Shore do you use to benchmark high-speed bike performance, can it be found in TF?
Reply
semiSafe
10 months, 1 week ago
Having run the same Continentals (DH Casing) with and without CushCore Pro on a regular, meat-powered bike... I'm also curious: what did you prefer in the insert configuration and what pressures were you running for each setup?
Reply
Cam McRae
10 months, 1 week ago
I'm running Cushcore Pro front and rear. This time of year they are much less important but I like the support at slightly lower pressures when things are wet and slippery. I also want to know that I can ride out if I get a flat so I don't have to bring a tube, pump or levers. On a bike like this I have no issue at all with the extra weight either.
Most of the time I was riding 16/18 PSI in the wet and 18/20 in the dry. And TBF, I haven't ridden these tires without inserts.
The trail I was referring to isn't on TF but the new Ned's would be a great one I think, although it's maybe a little too smooth? John Deer has some decent speed as well but it's tough to find around here!
Reply
Stephen
10 months, 1 week ago
I found tire inserts to have almost eliminated tire issues for me entirely since installing Cushcores about 2 years ago. I will always preach their effectiveness for flat protection if punctures are even semi-regular for a rider, not to mention the performance benefits of lower PSI and the run-flat capabilities if you do end up with a flat.
New Ned's is pretty sweet, I love what they ended up doing with it after all the work they put into it. Went from a beaten old river bed to a rather sick flow trail, wish they could have kept some of the older ladder features but they must have been rotted away. A little too smooth like John Deer if looking for the really high-speed chunk tho
Reply
DancingWithMyself
10 months ago
I know this is an issue with Maxxis and that I should branch out from my grumpy, ride-what-I-know ways, but have you had issues with wobbly sidewalls after removal and reinstallation with CushCore pro? Everything is great on install, but it seems like a crapshoot as to whether I can remove and install a tire with decent mileage without damaging a sidewall.
I've got the trash can, bead locker. moto bead lube, etc. and am doing everything I can to remove and install as gently as possible. Got any thoughts or tips?
Reply
Cam McRae
10 months ago
I have not had this issue myself. I use the Bead Dropper tool from CushCore exclusively for these tasks but I'm not sure if that would be better than what you currently use to break the bead seal.
Reply
DancingWithMyself
10 months ago
I've bought the butt plug and bead clamper things from CushCore, so I guess I'll have to keep wondering if I'm doing something wrong.
I'm 215, run an EXO+ casing with CC Pro on the rear at 22-23psi, and riding decently hard. Part of me thinks that after 2-3 months, I've put enough stress on sidewalls that they sometimes just can't handle being uninstalled and reinstalled.
The main reason I would pop a bead is to clean out sealant clumps. I usually mix Orange Seal regular and endurance. I may go strictly to endurance, sacrificing some sealing, because the tire/insert combo feels so good and is so versatile.
Thanks for the response.
Scott Smith
10 months ago
@dancingwithmyself Personally, I've had one wheelset where cushcore pro wouldn't sit evenly in the carbon rim bed and the tire had a bad wobble. More recently I had a bead fail on a maxxis DD casing tire. I was not running cushcore, but the tire had been previously installed with cushcore and the bead/sidewall seemed to be permanently deformed, and got worse over time
I've spoken with some pro riders who did time testing and found they were faster in corners when running DD/DH casings w/o cushcore, vs exo+ with cushcore.
I'm no pro, but it's only worth the hassle on hardtails IMO.
Reply
DancingWithMyself
10 months ago
Assuming you don't live somewhere with sharp rocks and lots of sidewall tears, I think the argument for a lighter casing + CC Pro is that it creates a very versatile setup. The lighter casing with lower pressure feels great and rolls well at "trail bike speeds," but the CC still allows it to perform on "enduro bike speeds."
My Enduro bike has heavier casings. But my EXe gets ridden across a much bigger range of conditions, thus the exo+ and CC pro.
It's not the CC causing the wobble, but a worthwhile point to raise.
Thanks for the reply.
BarryW
10 months, 1 week ago
Damn motorized cycles.
Reply
hongeorge
10 months, 1 week ago
"SRAM makes a 200mm AXS dropper post" - do they? Is this insider knowledge that one is on the way? :)
Really interesting review. 7k here for the cheapest one is certainly not cheap, but Treks pricing is nuts on every other model, buying cheap and upgrading to the same or better spec saves thousands.
Reply
Cam McRae
10 months, 1 week ago
Do they not make a 200? I wish they did.
It turns out there is a Reverb Stealth 200 but not an AXS sadly.
An AXS post is really nice to install and remove but I would have been happier on a longer, cable-actuated post without question.
Reply
hongeorge
10 months, 1 week ago
I'd have one if they made 200, for the same reasons as you, but sadly not
Reply
ifstewart
10 months, 1 week ago
Great review! It seems like these are the future of ebikes.
Reply
DancingWithMyself
10 months ago
Not sure if Cam is still monitoring these comments, but after his time on the EXe, I'd be very interested in his thoughts on the proper limitations on watts and torque for e-mtbs.
It seems to me that while the mtb world is smuggly proclaiming to have freed itself from all of the ideas about geometry, rim width, bar width, etc. that were ported over from road bikes, with respect to the biggest development of the past decade, e-bikes (for better or worse), the mtb world is unquestioningly accepting the Class 1 parameters, which were absolutely developed for riding pavement with zero thought of recreational mountain biking.
My opinion is bikes that give you 700 extra watts have no place on the trails, but I'd be curious to hear other takes. While the cats almost certainly not going back in the bag as far as laws and regulations, choosing a mid-powered e-mtb over a full powered one can still be encouraged on grounds of user conflict, impact to trails, access, etc.
Reply
Cam McRae
10 months ago
I do ride a proper class 1 bike on trails regularly (a Sight VLT) and I haven't had any trail conflicts or other issues. That doesn't mean there won't be issues of course, but with responsible use, as with any mountain bike, I personally think they can coexist without major problems. Once we start talking about higher power, more speed and throttles, I think we have an issue.
At the same time, bikes like the EXe fit in much better, both because of the absence of noise and the limitations of the smaller battery and less powerful motor.
There were expectations that problems would ramp up as the number of eMTBs on the trails increased but I haven't seen or heard much of that thus far. Obviously this is anecdotal but people who are wronged by dudes (mostly dudes!) on eMTBs aren't likely to be quiet.
Singletrack climbs keep the speeds down generally and while I'm faster up the local climber on my Sight VLT than the EXe, the difference isn't massive. I have to slow down in the switchbacks and where it's rough. I also avoid singletrack climbs when I expect the trails to be busy because I don't like passing people with a motor.
Reply
DancingWithMyself
10 months ago
Thanks for the reply.
"Responsible use" is quite the assumption on which to base public policy!
Reply
ryandoubleu
10 months, 1 week ago
Great review. I am curious why you think the bikes battery is a structural component you can’t ride without?
The cover plate should have came with a removable metal clip which takes place of the battery threads to hold the plate in place when the battery is removed.
Reply
Cam McRae
10 months, 1 week ago
Thanks for that info and the kind words.
I have since learned this from another source as well and will be amending my review. My tester did not come with this piece, hence my inability to ride the bike without the battery.
I also learned that the battery keeps a reserve that allows for 300 shifts before going completely dark. I'm not sure if the screen stays active during that time but I would assume so.
Reply
DancingWithMyself
10 months ago
It's a plastic POS that breaks, but you can purchase a metal one. Not proprietary.
As a general matter, the battery hatch, security, etc. seem very well sorted to me.
Reply
Brother Lu
10 months, 1 week ago
Great review Cam! It sure would be nice to see some more frame and motor only options out there.
I can't say I would ever be interested in a lot of the snazzy bits on that bike. I know there's base models, but then most of the parts are bin worthy.
Reply
Maxcycles
10 months, 1 week ago
This is a fantastic review to read. In fact, pretty much every review on this site is so well written and feels trustworthy.
For me this is one of the most desirable emtb’s on the market. I know a guy who has an EXe (lower priced model compared to this) and he absolutely loves it. Said it’s the bike he’d throw on a chair lift over the enduro bike he used to have, as it just descends so well and became his only bike.
I have a Kona Remote 130 (with some parts spec changes) in my stable and all around it’s a really decent emtb, it was what I could afford, but the TQ drive unit on the Trek is majorly appealing for my next emtb, whatever that may be. I hope more brands adopt this system.
Pricing of these bikes is HIGH but damn it’s nice to have an eeb in rotation.
Reply
Cam McRae
10 months ago
Thanks Max. Very kind of you.
You may find it difficult to adjust to the mid power of the EXe after being on the Remote. At least it sounds like you'll have a riding partner though!
Reply
DancingWithMyself
10 months ago
I've got an EXe on which the only OEM component remaining is the cranks. Spec packages are crap.
Had it since October. First ebike. It's a really fun SUPPLEMENT to riding real bikes.
For what they're worth, I've got a few thoughts in addition to what Cam has said
- The low position is really, really low. Go look at some geo charts. If you're pedaling a lot on rocky or root infested trails, consider (gasp) trying the high position, especially if your ride flats. Also be aware of this before your purchase planning to mullet.
- There's plenty of room on a large to run 2.5mm (or even 5mm) more stroke on the shock and get the rear to around 150mm and pair it with a 160mm fork. Of course, warranty, check clearance yourself, etc.
- Compare the cost and power on the extender vs a second battery. Two batteries and an easy-to-find-on-sale portable power station can make for a big day on something that feels awfully close to a real bike if you're willing to come back by the car twice.
- The batter has its own firmware. Get it updated before you leave the store. You'll need your bike (or an EXe) to do this.
- Definitely take the time to tune the motor with the app.
- The paints chips if you look at it mean.
- The bearings are tiny little things. Mine are still going strong, buy visually they are not inspiring. They are also pressed into carbon.
- The UDH is bonded chinesium. Hilariously, there is an ABP-specific UDH you'll need if you want to replace it or purchase a back up.
- You have to take it the shop for firmware updates.
Hope this helps someone out there.
Reply
Moritz Haager
10 months, 1 week ago
Cool sounding bike, and certainly I think this is the way eMTBs will, and should, go in the future with low visual and auditory signatures, and lower weight. Price is…..well it’s more than I would want to spend, but I think there are lots of bits on this bike that I’d be happy to compromise on, like a mechanical drivetrain, and skipping all the whiz parts, that should result in some savings. I do think they have gone completely overboard with the number of batteries on this thing. I feel like a bike that has one giant battery it’s designed around, should make every attempt to run all other electronic parts off that one battery so that you only have to worry about charging one battery at a time, but maybe that’s just me. Also, it should be able to function without any battery power at all. That’s a massive oversight IMO, and a chance for a companies engineering team to distinguish itself from the competition.
Bit of a tangent, I really like carbon for how you can shape it into any complex shape you want, and its weight, but the fact that it breaks when making hard contact with pointy rocks is certainly its Achilles heel in a sport where falling is a common occurrence, and you’re usually surrounded by sharp, pointy objects. At least with aluminum the resulting dents are usually cosmetic rather than structural. I broke a seatstay on my first carbon MTB within the first 6 months of owning it in that manner. At that time had to replace the entire rear triangle which sucked from a cost and time perspective. It’s cool that carbon repair is becoming more common now. How much did your repair run you out of curiosity? I’d love to see an article about different manufacturers carbons resistance to these types of impacts (do GG’s impact resistance claims live up to the hype, and what does that look like in real terms?), as well as a review of different frame protection methods (e.g. AMS with their honeycomb tech, and I think RideWrap recently released a new wrap thats supposed to have more impact resistance baked in) and how well they actually work. I’m also surprised that manufacturers don’t armor the weak points of frames more with a plastic overlay the way they universally do on the down tube.
Reply
Alex D
10 months, 1 week ago
> RideWrap recently released a new wrap thats supposed to have more impact resistance baked in
I wouldn't put much stock in that. To protect from an impact, you can either reduce the acceleration (slow it down with a thick absorber) or spread out the force (disperse it with something stiff). Protection film, and really anything flexible that isn't a 'smart' material, does neither.
Reply
Cam McRae
10 months, 1 week ago
I like this idea Moritz. I know that Dustin Adams did some testing like this when he was researching ahead of finalizing the Arrival design. He went to bike shops and grabbed whatever broken carbon bits they had to see where they broke and then to also break them in different places as I recall.
Otherwise it's tough to know how you could do this practically. "Would you give me a carbon frame to see how hard it is to break please?" If I was a manufacturer I'd want to be very sure the methodology was sound and my frame wouldn't be represented inaccurately.
Reply
Moritz Haager
10 months, 1 week ago
Haha, yes. Taking an entire frame would be a bit much. You’re right that you’d have to get buy in from manufacturers so they would provide a representative carbon tube that would be tested in a standardized manner. To do it right, it would definitely take a lot of thinking, time, and effort.
Reply
XXX_er
10 months, 1 week ago
It could have been a 19k E bike or the cheapest acoustic carbon HT, the frame would have cracked either way if you dropped it just right. I think tires/ grips/ saddle are very much personal preference and I'm a Maxxis/ ODI/ WTB kind of guy myself. You did a lot of good wanking about on the power levels/ range, personly I just ride my EP8 in boost all the time cuz more fun is more fun and on that note I think the people buying E bikes dont care that much what they cost. I'm just suprised no body has written in acusing you of being the anti christ
yet
Reply
Kelownakona
10 months, 1 week ago
That calorie count looks inaccurately high for that ride, particularly with engine support!
Reply
Cam McRae
10 months, 1 week ago
I haven't been able to determine if Apple Watch uses metrics like distance covered and elevation gained to determine caloric output. If it does then an eMTB would produce an inaccurate calorie count. If it's only determined by height, weight, Basal Metabolic Rate and Active metabolic rate, and it seems high (I have no reference for this) then I'm not sure what's going on.
Reply
Andy Eunson
10 months, 1 week ago
Agree on the tires. I’ve got the regular EX and being dry right now the SE 5 with their dual compound 50 durometer are just fine. Im guessing by the time they are done I’ll be approaching the wet season and I’m thinking those new Continental tires have a date with my wheels. Pretty capable bike although I’m not convinced that the seat angle at 78° does much for me. But it’s not terrible either. I did size up to a medium which according to Trek’s chart is too big for me at 164cm height. But the small had a really short top tube which would be too cramped and I’d hit my knees on the grips more than I do already on tight uphills. Is that something that you’ve found Cam?
Reply
Cam McRae
10 months, 1 week ago
The size has been fine for me but it's at the low end of my preferred reach range. No issues with knee contact either.
A point made by Fabien Barel re: eMTB sizing is that the extra, low slung weight makes them more stable and one of the goals of long bikes is to provide increased stability, so he feels it's possible to size down. This would be less true for the EXe because it's only a few pounds heavier than your average enduro bike but there still feels like the motor and battery placements give the bike a more planted feel than an heirloom bike.
Reply
Scott Smith
10 months, 1 week ago
The mullet factor is frequently missed in these reach conversations. Mullet takes about 17mm off the advertised reach based on dual-29" geometry, so sizing up starts to make more sense. You are right, this bike doesn't really have the weight penalty of an ebike.
Reply
Scott Smith
10 months, 1 week ago
I’ve been riding this frame/motor since October and it’s been phenomenal. Really the right balance between a full eBike and a meat bike, so no need to own both. In fact I frequently forget to turn on the assist until the climbing has begun- and it’s a great descender for the travel- especially with a 160mm fork and mullet wheels.
The specs at all levels are pretty much garbage. Want adjustable compression damping? Then you get Tyrewiz and Airwiz too- for an extra $1k. The ticket is to buy the base level and swap parts with your current bike or build custom.
Reply
hongeorge
10 months, 1 week ago
Not in Canada - but here the price for a GX AXS bike is EUR 1500 more than XT - so basically 1500 for GX cassette, shifter, mech and chain - I can buy that for 600 Euro myself, and that's not accounting for the cost of the XT stuff. The top end 15k bike is staggeringly bad value, and you still end up needing new tyres, and you get a no brand headset and that bar/stem monstrosity
Reply
DancingWithMyself
10 months ago
Agreed. To get something good, you've got to buy down the food chain and sell and replace the parts. Expensive, but worth it.
Reply
FlofromPettenride
7 months, 3 weeks ago
Did someone heute have the opportunity to compare the Fuel Exe with the all new Levo SL? I wonder if that beats the Exe…
And thanks for those insightful and Great to read Reviews…a Pleasure!
Reply
DancingWithMyself
7 months, 3 weeks ago
I love my EXe and haven’t ridden a Spesh, so confirmation bias, etc.
But go read some of the comments on Game of Forks. Personally, I don’t know if I’d ever trust a bike manufacturer to design and manufacture a motor. That’s why the EXe was my first ebike.
Hopefully some helpful food for thought.
Reply
Cam McRae
7 months, 3 weeks ago
I haven’t ridden a Levo SL but I have been on a parallel platform that I’ll be able to tell you about soon.
But wait… maybe discerning isn’t the word, but I’m not sure there is a consumer group much fussier than mountain bikers are - at least regarding mountain bikes.
Reply
DancingWithMyself
7 months, 3 weeks ago
Edited the post before I saw your comment (sorry about that) because I agreed I had said it poorly and didn't mean to be snarky.
Something I don't see getting discussed is how realistic it is to believe bike companies can produce cutting-edge motors with very high levels of quality control. Not an easy thing to do, even if you go hire some expertise.
Introducing a motor and electronics takes the potential for failure and other warranty issues to a whole new level. And motors are black boxes about which I most certainly do not have a sufficient knowledge base to evaluate design, how likely it is to be robust, etc. I can't imagine we're going to get one of Andrew's incredibly insightful teardown articles about a motor anytime soon. And users can't evaluate and repair them.
I was nervous about all of this, but looking at TQ's history, the other markets that are their bread and butter, etc. gave me enough confidence to pull the trigger.
Not trying to make a dig at people that own Shimano, Spesh, and Rocky motors nor be a fanboy. I'm sure many of them have had a great experiences. Just thought it might be helpful to briefly consider my line of thinking when shopping a TQ motor against a bike-brand motor.
To make a way oversimplified analogy, would you rather have a tool from a tool company (e.g., Wera, Knipex, etc.) or Park or Pedro's?
Reply
Please log in to leave a comment.