The 2024 Canyon Strive:ON + Torque:ON eMTB

computers and water...  what could go wrong.

Ha! Yep. Until about three years ago Canada/US readership was a dead heat. Now the US side is way higher. Combined, they're 60%. So almost half of the readership is outside North America (with apologies to Mexico).

I have heard some other stories about service issues with motors. It's definitely an issue, I grant you that. We've had a few motor problems, but it can be hard for us to simulate the customer experience when the person helping us at a shop (let alone a brand rep) knows who we are when we need help, so our experience is not always representative and we know that.

eBikes are definitely computers. And I definitely understand why people want no part of that, whether it's a motor or even a battery that handles shifting. Hell, I still think I may never have had more fun on a bike than when I first got a '98 RM Hammer Race that mostly got ridden in the UBC Endowment Lands (aka Pacific Spirit Park). Equal fun, yes, but maybe never more.

"I had no idea NSMB had a following outside of this colony !"

It should - Every lake or ocean and roughly 50% of rivers have a North Shore, so really NSMB should have lots of appeal.

The water thing is kinda weird - over a decade ago, Shimano toured the first DI2 groupset around with this weird fish tank contraption where they could spin the cranks and make the drivetrain shift while the deralleur and battery were submerged. So I feel like they shouldn't be running into any water ingress issues with anything 'e-tube'. Although I suppose I can't be mad at Shimano if the root issue is the particular brand not running Shimano batteries or wiring (distinctly not e-tube on brands like Norco, for example).

Excellent insights, Lu, thanks for sharing those.

It's just getting so old. And being pedantic - and falsely so - doesn't make anyone all that interested in listening to the part of the argument that may be true. So, make a silly 'it's a motorbike' comment, get a silly response. Seems fair.

First of all, I think all the moped and motorcycle commentary is hilaaaarious. 

B: this is what he said verbatim: " it has a motor, and two wheels, ergo: motorcycle."

IV: I don't disagree with you at all. Healthy, intelligent, adult skepticism of hyper modernization, and the rise of convenience while raising prices and putting decent bicycles (for example) out of reach of most people, is very welcome here and I share many of these concerns. Calling it a motorcycle or a moped or a broped doesn't add anything to the conversation. 

επτά: And yet those comments are welcome as well.

PS - Tell a Hell's Angel the bikes above are motorcycles, and see what they say. Or maybe a pro motocross or moto GP rider. They'll probably enjoy it as well.

Flogging this a bit further:

I have to agree with Cam on one point: while they are definitely motorized, legal assisted e-mountain bikes are not equivalent to motorcycles by a long shot. Even to relatively low powered moto's such as the SurRon (which have unfortunately begun to appear on some of our local non-motorized trails). And, to clarify my position: despite my personal aversion to e-mtb, I do believe that pedal assist has a place in the biking spectrum, even on many trails.  However- when the marketing push of MORE! is aimed squarely at an mtb demographic of "shredders" who are perfectly capable of biking without motors, like Barry I have to wonder: where does this end?

LOL! Maybe lighten up a bit Barry! Did I seem deadly serious above? But let’s recap.

You said this;

“It has a motor, and two wheels, ergo: motorcycle.”

AXS has a motor. By your reductive definition, that makes a bike with AXS a motorcycle, I said nothing about wireless either. That was you.   

I also did not suggest that you said these were equal to Harleys or motocross bikes. Maybe have a look back and see what I actually said if that’s of interest.   

My comprehension is actually pretty good. No need to get petty.

One could just as easily say, if it has to be pedalled to move, it is a bicycle. That is more logical than calling them motorcycles,

Which they aren’t, quite obviously. 

That doesn’t mean they should be allowed everywhere or that those who ride them shouldn’t be guided by the same principles as those that should (but don’t always) guide those who ride bikes with no electric motors. Or that eMTBers should be exempt from contributing to trail maintenance.

I support the legal limits to eMTB power and speed and I do not believe those with throttles should have the same access as pedal assist bikes.   

I also support sensible access rules like keeping eMTBs off some sensitive alpine trails, not because they do more damage individually, but because they will produce more traffic.

You think calling them motorcycles is a productive addition to this conversation, and I disagree. 

I’m okay with that! 

Cheers!

I can't reply toSteveR below (comment system limitation) but it's a perfect example of making a solid argument without a reflexive statement preceding it. That's a conversation we can have. 

Barry, I know you have contributions to make, you just lose your audience when you start out flippantly. Of course it doesn't help when we reply that way either but it's really frustrating to go to the effort of disrupting your week by flying far away to test bikes (sounds tough I know but it actually is a big effort) then compiling info and spending a lot of time writing an article only to have the same ol' "motorcycle" tirade. Yes, it's our job and no one's asking for sympathy. No, you don't have to embrace e-bikes. But at least meet us halfway on having a decent conversation about it. 

As far as where it'll end, the last two generations of Shimano and Bosch motors have 85nM of power. Most efforts are centered around making batteries and therefore bikes lighter (more efficient, longer lasting, etc). You could add more power to what we have now but I don't think the ceiling is a lot higher. You can only go so fast on a trail before you outpace your vision, skill, coordination, etc. 

Surrons are a different story altogether but they should be controllable using a lot of the same things used to keep ICE motos off other trails, like squirrel catchers. Those things are, I think, what will bring to fruition a lot of the problems people have been worried about with e-bikes that haven't really come to be.

Replying to Pete:

Thane for the real response.

I'm actually quite genuine on my opinions about ebikes. And to date not one person has made a cogent argument how they are not in fact just (by today's standards) low powered motorcycles. 

Like really, every response is that that use the same components as bicycles, so bicycle! But that's not really how that works. Case in point: a BMW i3 uses the weird, large diameter wheels that are closer to fatbike dimensions than common automotive wheels. Would that similarity make it a bike? Of course not. 

Now that's an obviously absurd comparison because no matter the parts used to make what we all call a "car" if it has four wheels, is self motivated, and can carry at least one passenger it's a CAR! And to add to that, a Paganini Zonda shares literally zero parts work any car any one of us on here will ever own, but it is still a car because of the 4 wheels, self motivating and able to carry at least one person. Even more true of exotic racing cars or motorcycles. 

So saying that these are not motorcycles is weird. How is it not? Does it self motivate? Yes. Does it also need rider input, yes. Does that take it out of the motorized category? No. Does using mtb brakes on a motorcycle make it a bicycle? No. Literally the only real debate is the legal category these sit in. And they have defined a motorized cycle as a subdivision of bicycle. Cool, well let's all listen to the definitions made by corporations and government, because that's usually the best idea right? Hopefully you can feel the snark.

I don't hate anyone for flying around to go ride bikes Ave write about them, but I've gotta be honest while they are incredibly fun recreation, this article is about a sport most of your readership does not partake in. It is a different sport that sits right between full powered motocross type riding, and human powered bicycles. 

And responding to Cam: 

Sure, I did say that, but by clawing onto what was obviously not my point you sir become the obnoxious pendant. Not me. 

And yes, you said that if I asked Harley riders of these are motorcycles they wouldn't agree. Well if you asked that same group about a lot of things I bet we could come up with the craziest answers that neither you nor me would agree with. 

Smiles all around boys, I like a good and thoughtful debate, and I feel when you flip me shit I get to flip my own hack at you. No love lost here, u still enjoy the writing, but I'm still gonna hate the low powered motorcycles.

To everyone: I'm not mad bro. Just feeling the frog in water slowly coming up to a boil. Like I mentioned earlier, look at the development of the motorcycle, it was literally bicycles with motors added. (Or velocipedes). Either way, that was the origin of the motorcycle, not an original thought, but more that people already riding bicycles wanted to pedal less. Well here we are with newer tech, but I fail to see how that makes anything different.

I can't reply to your last comment but it starts with - "Replying to Pete:

Thane for the real response."

But your comment seemed like a really long winded way of saying you don't understand the definition of a bicycle. It's always been a pedal propelled device with two wheels, a frame and handlebars.

Yes the inception of the motorcycle was preceded by a bicycle like principles but the combustion engine hadn't been invented yet and the logical end point was the motorcycle. What do you think the logical endpoint of e-bikes are? Do you think manufacturers will abandon e-bikes and just say that we're all headed for e-moto cross bikes anyway? Lol no.

The biggest differentiator is that e-bikes lack a throttle (accelerator) and require human pedalling effort to move forward. The output of the motor equates to the effort being put in by the rider.

As soon as e-bikes have a throttle or autopilot that requires no pedalling, then I'll agree with you.

Also your mention of the i3 is weird. It has four wheels and an accelerator, it's an automobile (car).