PRODUCT RELEASE | EDITORIAL
Shimano Introduces the CUES Ecosystem
Happy CUES Day
If you're reading this then it's sometime after 9am on Tuesday, February 28th, and the bikernet is absolutely clogged with information about Shimano's new CUES drivetrains.
What is CUES? At the simplest level, it's a streamlining of multiple Shimano component groups into three series with high intercompatibility. CUES U4000, CUES U6000, and CUES U8000 replace the ages old monikers of Altus, Acera, and Alivio, Deore HG, and Shimano's 'Trekking' components.
Shimano CUES drivetrains all use their LinkGlide (LG) system for improved durability and shifting performance. For more information on LinkGlide please check out my first experiences with XT M8130 or Shimano's detailed explanation.
This is the most important takeaway though. Shimano clearly believes that most mountain bikers should be on LinkGlide (LG) rather than HyperGlide+ (HG+), and I agree.
For our purposes here, this is the first and last time I'll mention CUES U8000. This more refined-looking CUES lineup acts as a replacement for the T-8000 Trekking group. Mountain bikers looking for a higher level setup than CUES 6000 will graduate to Deore M5130 LinkGlide. Likewise, while the highest-level CUES has a Di2 Auto-Shifting option, I'm focussing on what this groupset means for the budget conscious cyclist looking to min-max their drivetrain.
Further to this, one key driver of the CUES drivetrain community is bringing high performance shifting, excellent 1x chain retention, and Shimano-level drivetrain reliability to lower bicycle prices than Shimano has in the past. I'm certain Shimano would not call it a 'MicroShift Killer,' so I'll do that for them. Of course, Shimano will do Shimano things, so there's a massive assortment of front derailleurs and double crank options with CUES as well. This will be the last time I'll mention front derailleurs in this piece, aside from the caption below.
I know that for many mountain bikers, the CUES U4000 and CUES U6000 drivetrain community is only of interest for a commuter bike application, a kids' bike, or maybe for a friend fresh into the activity. Aside from that, Shimano does have some history of trickle-up in their components.
There is a Shimano CUES U8000 group that largely replaces the XT T-8000 Trekking group. I'm largely ignoring this, as mountain bikers looking for more performance than CUES U6000 delivers will upgrade to Deore M5130 and then XT M8130 LinkGlide.
I'm also ignoring the plethora of front derailleur options and 2x cranksets that Shimano has released as CUES in favour of their stated objective to deliver the best 1x riding experience at lower price points.
CUES LinkGlide
CUES U4000 is a 9-speed group. CUES U6000 is a 10 & 11-speed group. Both use 11-speed chains and Shimano's newer LinkGlide (LG) shifting. This means that the cassette pitch and cable pull ratios make them inter-compatible with Deore M5130 and XT M8130 LG drivetrains.
The easiest way to think about CUES in terms of the legacy groups dying off in this extinction event is that CUES U4000 replaces Altus and Acera while CUES U6000 replaces Alivio and Deore HG. This is a long overdue de-muddling of the Deore moniker. CUES U6000 replaces Deore 10/11-speed HG and Deore 11-speed LG is going to murder the sale of Shimano's M5100 12-speed HG+ group. I predict within a year that when we're talking about a new bike with a 'Deore drivetrain' it will strictly refer to M5130.
The 9-speed CUES U4000 drivetrain doesn't have a clutch on the rear derailleur but is still claimed to have excellent 1x chain retention - though without the chain noise reducing benefits. This is a replacement for Altus and Acera drivetrains.
Think of the 10 or 11-speed CUES U6000 drivetrain as the clutch-equipped Alivio drivetrain riders have been requesting for years. It also replaces Deore HG. The next step up from here is a Deore M5130 drivetrain.
To continue a conversation we started last week with XT M8130 LinkGlide, the CUES drivetrain uses the new cable pull/derailleur motion ratios and cassette pitch of Shimano's LinkGlide system and is not considered compatible with any past systems. Essentially, the eleven cogs of the LG cassette occupy the same amount of space as the twelve cogs in an HG+ system and the LG derailleur and shifter are optimized for the new wider and more durable teeth on each cog.
All LG drivetrains use any brand's 11-speed chain and any brand's narrow-wide chainrings. The LG specific components are the cassette, where all the magic happens, and the shifter and derailleur.
I'm eager to ride CUES (U4000 & U6000), and even more eager to ride Deore M5130, but at this time my only LinkGlide experience is with XT M8130. Early days, but it's easily the best XT group Shimano has made. Having not ridden the lower end groups, I can only guess at their comparative performance.
LG700 is Shimano's top-end 11-speed LinkGlide cassette. It shares the same tooth profiling and pitch as every LG cassette from the least expensive 9-speed option on up. CUES, and LinkGlide in general, have a large degree of mix-and-match-ability. Photo: Andrew Major
I have plans to play with more mix-matched options since Shimano has a history of saying things are incompatible when in fact they mean not 100% optimized, but today I can speak to mating an HG drivetrain with an LG cassette and vice versa. In a bike stand, both drivetrains will shift the incompatible cassettes through their full gear range. Out in the parking lot however, the shifting isn't great.
In a pinch, I wouldn't think twice about mix-matching HG and LG but when buying a new cassette, those with an HG drivetrain will want to purchase an HG cassette. Besides Shimano, I've had great results with SunRace.
For all the 'HyperGlide forever' folks (I love my Zee drivetrain too), I hope you get a chance to ride a LinkGlide drivetrain for comparison. The way the chain walks up and down the cassette, instead of 'jumping' between gears is impressive. The XT LinkGlide that I'm on shifts significantly better than HG, up and down, and more positively than HG+, in both directions as well.
An 11-speed LG shifter will happily shift a 9- or 10-speed LinkGlide drivetrain - just with a click or two limited out. Likewise a 9-speed CUES shifter will shift any LG derailleur and cassette combo, just without enough range to hit every gear on a 10 or 11-speed setup. Photo: Andrew Major
One Ratio To Rule Them All
I'm going way off script here, diving straight into the crystal ball, but my bet is that the only cable pull ratio in Shimano's current component lineup by next year will be LinkGlide. LinkGlide for mountain biking, LinkGlide for commuting, and LinkGlide for the road. All beautifully inter-compatible in a way that has not existed since I used to mix-match Shimano 9-speed road and mountain groups.
Please note, I'm not predicting the demise of the smooth and light Hyperglide+ (HG+) shifting you'll find on DuraAce, Ultegra, XTR, and XT, just the idea that there will be cable-actuated versions of these drivetrains. For simplicity's sake, cable drivetrains will be LG and HG+ will be the realm of Di2 electronic shifting - wireless or semi-wireless.
All CUES rear derailleurs are 1x friendly. Some of them, like the U4000 and U6020 shown here, do not have clutches. These will be much louder than clutched derailleurs off-road.
The clutch-equipped version of the CUES U6000 drivetrain is signified on spec-sheets as RD+ and is called the U6000. That will be important to watch for when comparing CUES bikes of similar price points.
Goodbye Altus, Acera, & Alivio
Shimano will continue to manufacture HG drivetrain components for the legions of bicycles out in the wild, and they do have an excellent reputation for supporting legacy drivetrains. Clearly, the Deore name will live on with M5130, which may really be the only drivetrain that matters, or at least in competition with CUES U6000 for that crown, but in terms of new bikes, it's goodbye to the three 'A' groups, which will be joining STX-RC in the annals of Shimano history.
I suspect we'll be saying adieu to the SLX moniker as well, with Shimano paring down their lineup. In the current HG+ world, it's an unneeded middle point between Deore and XT, and Shimano has skipped it wholesale with LinkGlide. This gives a better idea of what a big shift is occurring with the the introduction of CUES.
I run a clutchless drivetrain on my daughter's bike for the lighter shifting action, relying solely on the NSBillet narrow-wide ring for retention. For this application, I'm excited about U4000 and U6020. Photo: Andrew Major
Clutchless For Claire
The most likely place that I think we'll see trickle-up is the CUES U4000 rear derailleur. Shimano notes that this derailleur is only compatible with CUES 9-speed cassettes, but you can run it with any LinkGlide shifter just by limiting out a couple of clicks.
What's unique about CUES U4000 is that it doesn't have a clutch, but unlike going 1x with a current Alivio or non-clutch Deore derailleur, it's not a matter of relying on smooth pedaling and a narrow-wide ring for chain retention. Shimano has used a clever spring configuration such that, while it's not quieted like a clutched drivetrain, the un-clutched CUES U4000 derailleur provides excellent offroad chain retention.
Two notes about U4000: 1) The shifters are only available in a format that includes a gear display, and 2) the rear derailleur only has the high-low range to shift 9 speeds. For a clutch-less 10- or 11-speed setup a U6000 derailleur is required.
The lighter shifting of an un-clutched derailleur makes it ideal for road bikes and kids' bikes. Yes, it's easy to de-tune the clutch on Shimano derailleurs but a clutch-less derailleur that contributes to 1x chain retention will be simpler, weigh less, and cost less.
On my daughter's mountain bike, we're running a 2005 X0 drivetrain for this reason, and the same rationale had me mount a 9-speed XTR M970 on my commuter. In both cases, I rely on the narrow-wide ring alone to keep the chain on and usually it works fine. In both cases, I'd choose CUES U4000 or the clutch-less U6020 for my rear derailleur.
In both cases, I'd also choose a CUES U6000, or Deore M5130, a 10-speed shifter with one gear limited out. Not that I've tried a CUES U4000 shifter, but it's only available in a version with Shimano's gear indicator window. I don't know why Shimano has clung to gear indicators all these years, but CUES U6000 at least provides the option.
The U6000 (external BB) and U4000 (square taper) cranksets both look great. It's weird that, given how many kids' bike CUES will come on, they don't come in lengths shorter than 170mm. I'd like to see both showing 145mm-165mm in 5mm increments for the 1x SKUs.
HG Happy
For folks that were disappointed to see XT M8130 LG cassettes coming for HG drivers only, it probably makes more sense now. All LinkGlide cassettes from CUES U4000 to XT M8130 use the same cassette pitch (cog spacing) and the classic HG interface for maximum intercompatibility.
Why not MicroSpline (MS) for everything? The freehub drivers and cassette bodies are significantly more expensive to make. Further, most e-bikes are coming with steel freehub drivers and many brands of aftermarket hubs now have an e-bike-friendly 'heavy duty' version that uses a steel freehub body. Also, plenty of folks have had issues with the MS cassettes, particularly the lockrings.
I'm not going to predict the outright abandonment of the MicroSpline freehub standard but road groups are still HG, all the LinkGlide cassettes are HG, and if Shimano did decide to start producing HG+ mountain bike cassettes for the HG format, the marketing department could just say "now all our cassettes go to eleven" and most folks would be just fine with that.
HG freehubs and cassettes are cheaper to manufacture than MicroSpline. Steel freehubs cover any 'digging in' issues with cheaper cassettes or eMTB torque loads. The smallest cog compatible is an 11t, not a 10t. Photo: Andrew Major
The LinkGlide 700 cassette I'm running has 7 cogs, including the cogs under the most torque on a self-powered bicycle, out of the 11 on a single aluminum carrier. I haven't seen the construction of the budget-friendlier LG options yet. Photo: Andrew Major
11-45 For Alex
As is typical of Shimano, LinkGlide, and as such CUES, has a range of cassette options. The most exciting new option isn't CUES at all, but rather an 11-45t version of the LG700 cassette, which, though non-series, is an XT M8130 level product.
A note here that Shimano does not sell box drivetrains, but rather encourages riders and purchasers from bike brands to mix and match within their budgets. Those buying complete bikes will want to keep an eye on cassette and chain specs for the typical hidden downgrades. I'd expect most Deore M5130 and CUES U6000 bikes to be running LG400 cassettes.
LinkGlide cassette options breakdown as:
LinkGlide 300 9-Speed
- 11-46t (11-13-15-17-20-23-28-36-46)
- 11-41t (11-13-15-17-20-23-28-34-41)
- 11-36t (11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-36)
LinkGlide 300 10-Speed
- 11-48t (11-13-15-17-20-23-28-34-41-48)
- 11-39t (11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-34-39)
LinkGlide 400 9-Speed
- 11-46t (11-13-15-17-20-23-28-36-46)
- 11-41t (11-13-15-17-20-23-28-34-41)
- 11-36t (11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-36)
LinkGlide 400 10-Speed
- 11-48t (11-13-15-17-20-23-28-34-41-48)
- 11-43t (11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-36-43)
- 11-39t (11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-34-39)
LinkGlide 400 11-Speed
- 11-50t (11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-36-43-50)
- 11-45t (11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-34-39-45)
LinkGlide 700 11-Speed
- 11-50t (11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-36-43-50)
- 11-45t (11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-34-39-45)
Regarding upgrades and downgrades, there are both clutched and non-clutched versions of the CUES 6000 rear derailleur. The clutched version is called Shadow RD+, rather than Shadow RD, and most mountain bikers will much rather have the RD+ version. It's definitely something to keep an eye on when comparing spec sheets.
Shimano U6000 shifters, in 10- or 11-speed, are available with and without gear indicator windows. Something to watch for when ordering a drivetrain or comparing bikes.
Minimums
Shimano has a couple of nice looking 1x cranksets in the CUES series. The CUES 4000 crankset, it should be noted, is square taper while the CUES U6000 crankset uses an external bottom bracket. The CUES LG drivetrain, and all LinkGlide drivetrains for that matter, consist of a cassette, rear derailleur, and shifter and Shimano doesn't force companies to buy crate drivetrains, so I don't know how much crank spec we'll see out in the wild, versus brand managers min-maxing their own mix.
I do expect we'll see a large number of CUES U6000, Deore M5130 LinkGlide, and XT M8130 LinkGlide bikes coming complete with RaceFace cranksets and chainrings, which has been common with HG and HG+ bikes as well.
Shimano only manufactures one LinkGlide-specific chain, the LG500, but any HG-compatible 11-speed chain works with CUES and any LinkGlide drivetrain. 11-speed is used to maximize surface area using an existing chain standard.
Shimano does have one 'LinkGlide' chain, the LG500, which I'm running on the M8130 drivetrain, but most bikes running LG, and especially CUES LG, will be spec'd with 11-speed chains. Here again, Shimano doesn't force companies to purchase their chains, so while we'll likely see a significant amount of HG 11-speed chain spec, it's likely that KMC and other brands of 11-speed chains will be well-represented, especially on CUES U4000 bikes.
Thus far I've only ridden the top end XT M8130 version of LinkGlide. Photo: Andrew Major
I'm comfortable recommending Deore M5130 - and even proclaiming it's the drivetrain that most mountain bikers probably need - but I'm holding out on endorsing CUES until I've played with it. Photo: Andrew Major
Winning CUES?
All in all, it's going to be interesting to see what brand managers do with LinkGlide. Every kids' rig that comes with CUES U4000 is getting a huge upgrade in chain retention and shifting quality over Altus, Acera, and even Alivio drivetrains. Despite their pending demise, these drivetrains remain remarkable in terms of how long they last and how well they run with bent hangers, mangled cages, and half-seized cables and housing.
It's strange that Shimano is making front derailleurs for the CUES group when there's a focus on not forcing new riders to learn on 2x and then "graduate" to 1x drivetrains, but in terms of spec, I'd guess from kids' rigs to mountain bikes and commuters to e-bikes, it'll be 99% 1x spec.
It can't be overstated how much of the entry-to-mid-level mountain bike market will be sporting CUES drivetrains within the next year. It's a huge re-orientation that has many people crossing their fingers that U4000 & U6000 live up to their potential.
How well do the more basic CUES LinkGlide drivetrains change gears and hold up? Is even the most basic LG setup 3x more durable and 3x smoother than legacy products? I don't know, since I've yet to see one in person. Based on Shimano's historic dominance of the low-to-mid-level drivetrain markets, and the performance of LinkGlide XT, I'm excited about this massive shift in their catalog. I understand why they feel it's worth it to move from HyperGlide to LinkGlide.
I'm hoping to be able to report back soon on both CUES U4000 and CUES U6000 and how they compare to the higher-end LinkGlide drivetrains. In the meantime, I'm watching for ride reviews as this stuff arrives in the real world.
While unit pricing isn't available yet, Shimano has provided these estimates for the cassette, rear derailleur, shifter, and chain (no crank or BB). These prices are with the largest cassette gear range for each group:
CUES U4000 9-speed: 151 USD
CUES U6000 10-speed: 187 USD
CUES U6000 11-speed: 214 USD
XT M8130 11-speed (for comparison): 362 USD
For a complete breakdown, check out Shimano CUES.
Comments
DanL
1 year, 2 months ago
A 9 speed 11-46t (11-13-15-17-20-23-28-36-46) , like you said twinned with a 10spd shifter or maybe cluthced 9 spd when it comes, that just made me a little happier on such a snowbound morning
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Yep, so excited about the ‘Does The Future Have Fewer Gears?’ potential.
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DanL
1 year, 2 months ago
And in a legitimate groupset as well. With legitimate forwards support for HG as a constant standard. Shame they're only going forwards with centerlock - the Sony minidisc of hub options.
If E13 make a 9 spd Trsr+ cassette to match with the top 2 cogs being replaceable it's going to be a wonderful time.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
In what sense are they only going forward with Centerlock? I'm currently riding Shimano's latest crazy multi-material heat-dissipating super-rotors and they're 6-bolt.
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BadNudes
1 year, 2 months ago
I think you can only get Shimano's nicer hubs in centerlock now? Who cares..?
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Oh, yeah, it's sort of like how the new, totally meh, Chris King hubs are Centerlock-only. In a sea of choice at every price point, I find my disappointment muted.
DanL
1 year, 2 months ago
I was talking about the Shimano hubs, as opposed to the drivers or discs. Moot for me but may provide disappointment on new drivetrain equipped bikes ?
Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
My understanding is that the reason we’ve been seeing so much more Shimano hub spec the last few years is significant brake/rotor/hub pairing price discounts.
I suppose there’s an optimistic take that by going Centerlock these companies are able to deliver better hub spec for a given price.
Anyway, not a new thing by any stretch but the CL-specificity certainly throttles any interest I’d have in checking out their newest hubs.
Bill T
1 year, 2 months ago
This all seems way more interesting to me that a 13-speed wireless automatically shifting drivetrain
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
I’m excited by the huge number of cyclists these new options benefit. I find drivetrain improvements that only benefit folks on 13-15k+ (CAD) bikes are boring.
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Squint
1 year, 2 months ago
Hmmmm curious curious about what will happen with drop-bar shifters... it would be nice to be able to fully a-la-carte a Shimano system without needing a decoder ring to ensure compatibility.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
My semi-educated bet (sans any insider information) is that all Shimano's cable-actuated drivetrains will be LinkGlide within a couple of years. I too look forward to the cassette options and mix-matching opportunities that will bring.
It's yet another reason I think the LG stuff runs on an HG driver.
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TristanC
1 year, 2 months ago
Same. If Shimano comes out with a cable-actuated brifter for all this stuff, they are going to have my money. I'm currently running a Microshift brifter with a M6000 cassette and derailleur on two bikes.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
I can’t wait to see but my bet is all the cable actuated Shimano road groups will move to LinkGlide with the Di2 stuff staying HG+ and that this will mirror the mountain groups.
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Vik Banerjee
1 year, 2 months ago
Interesting news. I've got 2-3 year's worth of drivetrain parts sitting on the shelf so I'm in no rush to buy more. I'll keep an eye on Cues and see how it shakes out over some time. I'm not dogmatically stuck on HG, but if Shimano keeps the 10/11speed HG stuff around and drops the prices as they get more and more dated that could be enough to keep me there. Shift quality/durability and gear range are all at a point where I pay very little attention to my drivetrains and they just work.
It's great that we are getting some component drops that make sense for the majority of mountain bikers.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
I think the key takeaway is that LinkGlide is awesome for the every rider and it's awesome that Shimano is bringing it to many price points with a high degree of intercompatibility and upgradeability. Not that there's anything wrong with the HG 10/11 speed drivetrains we've been riding/enjoying for years now.
I'm upfront that I've only ridden/installed/setup/even touched the XT-level stuff but I'm really excited by the idea of drivetrain innovation (particularly shifting AND durability improvements at the same time) for every person rather than just the 13-15K CAD 'super bike' rider.
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Blofeld
1 year, 2 months ago
So, let me get this straight, a company that’s known for having WAY too many SKUs is trying to reduce their SKU count by making more SKUs? I guess it could work IF Shimano does drop the other low-end groups. The integration with the low-end road groups may justify the derailleur ratio change as well. I like it. I think.
Does anyone else think it’s weird that there is 11speed spacing on a 9speed cassette? I mean, that’s still 11speed…is there a two cog spacer or a massive dork disk behind the cassette? Wouldn’t it be virtually the same cost (and fewer SKUs!) to only have 11speed shifters and cassettes of varying sizes?
Also, why didn’t they give the mountain group a new series designation? 8130 and 5130 is needlessly confusing.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
11-speed has the best surface contact of an existing chain standard, thanks to a better design than previous 8, 9, or 10-speed chains. Shimano could have made a new chain design based on a different spacing but I certainly appreciate that they used an existing size. It gives riders and brand managers a host of options.
LG Cues accomplishes two goals in both significantly improving lower-end drivetrain performance (this is an assumption based on my higher-level LinkGlide experience) and standardizing a whole range of drivetrains (cassette pitch, cable pull, and chain dimensions) from their most basic through cable-actuated XT.
My understanding is that from a bike-spec perspective CUES U4000/U6000 replaces the groups I noted (Altus, Acera, Alivio, Deore HG). Let's follow up when the 2025 bike spec is out.
There is no dork disk or spacer. The 9-speed CUES U4000 derailleur setup only has the high/low range for ~9-cogs. On the other derailleurs, you'll use limit screws as you would currently. I can't speak to this from personal experience but there may be cases where pre-Boost bikes have to use U6000 CUES 10-speed or Deore M5130 10-speed cassettes due to clearance issues since an 11-speed CUES cassette takes up similar space to a 12-speed HG+ cassette (this is also sometimes a case with other 12-speed cassettes on 135/142 wheels).
Shimano has used similar series codes ~ forever. XT has been 8### and Deore 5### for a while and before that XT was 7## and Deore was 5##. It's sort of strange maybe that CUES 6000 sits below Deore M5130 but Shimano will do Shimano things.
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Blofeld
1 year, 2 months ago
Interesting. I didn’t know about the interference risk between 12speed and 142 hubs. I see an asterisk on the LG compatibility chart for non-boost now that I look as well. I will definitely check out a 9speed LG cassette in person (when I can) to get to the bottom of this.
The cassette being non-series/3 digit and the derailleur/shifter being 8130 is somewhat odd. The rest of the 8130 parts are 12speed superboost. Maybe it’s a choice to make it easily identified as XT if it’s spec’d on a bike. Does this mean the new Saint is just another few years away?
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Oh, Shimano series vs. non-series components have fascinated me for years - I remember trying to get a tech rep to explain the difference between a 'Shimano 105 Crankset' and a 'Shimano 105 Level Crankset' much to the full-nerd joy of everyone present but him.
It could be the finish, the chainrings could be slightly different, and it could be a production delay on XTR cranks that requires some XTR-coloured XT cranks with XTR rings to deliver OE builds.
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I have ZERO inside information here, but my guess is that in the future there will be series-LinkGlide cassettes to complement the non-series LG models at least for XT and 105 (I am also assuming 105 will be the highest level cable actuated drivetrain and will use LinkGlide as e-road becomes ever more popular) and on these, they'll shave significant weight using a (replaceable) section of 2-3 aluminum cogs for the low range.
The reason not to go live with such a cassette system now is it will negate some of the longevity advantages of LinkGlide, which currently constitute the real push behind the system, in favour of shaving a few grams and muddying the waters between LG and HG+.
Once enough people have ridden Deore (M5130) and XT (M8130) LinkGlide and report back that longevity aside the shifting is roughly equal while also feeling much more solid, and Shimano sees if the average rider gives two shakes about 11-speed versus 12-speed I'd expect to see a M8130 cassette.
Or maybe I'm well off the trail hiking through a fresh cut block and the non-series cassettes are meant to invoke the interchangeability of LinkGlide. But I doubt it.
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"Interesting. I didn’t know about the interference risk between 12speed and 142 hubs. I see an asterisk on the LG compatibility chart for non-boost now that I look as well. I will definitely check out a 9speed LG cassette in person (when I can) to get to the bottom of this."
It's hub dependent, but I've seen 142 setups where there isn't sufficient clearance between the drive side hub flange/spokes and a 12-spd cassette. In my experience and YMMV, it's easy enough to pull one cog (I like to pull the 15t) if that's the case.
If an 11-speed LG cassette requires roughly the same real estate as a 12-speed HG+ cassette because of the thicker cogs and wider spacing, then I'd expect a 10-speed LG cassette to roughly equal and 11-speed HG and so on for a 9-speed LG.
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Marc Pfister
1 year, 2 months ago
Can you throw your 11 speed LG wheel into a bike with a 10 speed HG shifter?
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
What are you hoping to determine Marc? Shimano 10/11 HG is interchangeable so 10-speed HG isn't going to be inter-compatible with LG.
Marc Pfister
1 year, 2 months ago
If 11 LG is wider than 11 HG, how close is it to 10 HG? Did Shimano really engineer this whole group around new geometries that are with a couple percent? Or did they just start with 10 speed HG and add and subtract 1 cog to get CUES?
Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
The cogs on LG cassettes are themselves notably thicker and an 11-spd LG cassette actually takes up approximately the same real estate as a 12-spd HG+ cassette. The pitch on an 11-spd LG cassette is larger than 10/11-spd HG and 12-spd HG+.
The pitch on an 11-spd HG cassette and 10-spd HG are ~ the same and Shimano HG-11 and HG-10 components are ~ interchangeable. For example, you can use a 10-spd or 11-spd XT HG derailleur with a 10-spd or 11-spd XT HG shifter.
All CUES drivetrains (9/10/11) are LinkGlide (LG) and use the same cassette pitch and cable pull ratio which is why they're interchangeable. This is interchangeable with all LinkGlide drivetrains (including XT M8130).
Marc Pfister
1 year, 2 months ago
Argh, I've been measuring cassette spacing on my milling machine's Z axis and using a Sunrace 10 and it measures at 4.2mm. I went back and tried a newer 10 Shimano I bought recently and yup, it measures around 3.9, just like the 11 speed one I have measured.
Now if 10 and 11 HG are interchangeable, that makes the hoopla around CUES interoperability not as exciting. They could have just made a 9 speed cassette at 3.9ish and called it good.
Ben Bangerter
5 months, 4 weeks ago
My best measurement is that the spacing on the cassette is 4.25 mm so no.
Alex D
1 year, 2 months ago
Appreciate the callout (or was that a themed reference?), I've added all of the cassettes and derailleurs to the workbook. Did they end up dropping the LG600 series? The product page is still up, but the product seems not to exist.
Looking forward to next 1X conversion so I can try some of this stuff.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
HAHAHA, it was actually a callout for Alex Sinanan but the link was cut at some point, but I'm happy if you want to share it. I'm right in there as well, with a 30t ring I simply don't need the 50t step and would rather have the lighter-and-tighter 11-45t.
What I was told by Shimano is that even with it being a non-series cassette there were a lot of push-backs about the weight of the LG600 unit since it's the XT spec. So, they listened (yes, Shimano) and went back and designed LG700. Not that LG700 is a flyweight cassette in any tooth count, but when I consider what it is I think the weight is very reasonable.
I'd love to see Shimano partnering with brands that have demo-fleets to get as many folks as possible out on LG this summer. Again, not suggesting anyone with a good-to-go 10/11 HG drivetrain start fresh but it took one ride and feeling the chain "walk" up and down the cassette for me to get it.
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BadNudes
1 year, 2 months ago
I wonder if LG could benefit friction shifters? If anyone will be able to tell me it'll be Andrew Major... I'll stay tuned...
I'm guessing pretty super smooth shifts, if maybe a little touchy, since it'll have 11 speed spacing/ratio (regardless if it's a 9, 10, or 11 speed cassette)
Cool to see some (probably overdue) advancement at the budget end of the spectrum. Maybe uncooth to talk about drop bars here, but I'll be curious to see what happens with the next Claris/Sora updates.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Shift for shift, I'm positive LG will be amazing with a friction setup. I have not had a chance to actually put it together but I owe a few people an update so I'll post here too.
I feel strongly that LG will permeate all cable-actuated Shimano groups in the future including road and commuting.
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Pete Roggeman
1 year, 2 months ago
No aversion to drop bars here, BN - we've been slowly letting that kind of stuff creep in and we know lots of people are interested. Bad nudes, on the other hand - ain't no one need to see those!
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Mammal
1 year, 2 months ago
So CUES jives with the Link Glide group that you introduced last week, and uses specific cassettes and cable ratios. And it looks like CUES/LG is taking over the lower spec Shimano space.
So where does this leave me, who just invested on the "new" (a year or so ago) Deore HG 11spd group? I guess derailleur compatibility isn't really much of an issue, but should I worry about shifter/chain support for the old-11-spd system in the future?
It seems strange to me that they're tipping the apple cart on their low-spec stuff after introducing new 10/11 and 11spd groups not long ago. More durable is good, but this is a lot of rapid incremental changes for a company like Shimano.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
As noted, standard HG 11-speed chains are used throughout the groups (there is one model of LG chain).
They’re also compatible with any brands narrow-wide chainring and any brands 11spd chains.
In terms of the HG-specific drivetrain wear component - the cassette - Shimano has committed to supporting the standard long term and I think they have an excellent track record. For example, I bought a new 9-speed XT cassette last year.
They’ve also committed to continue manufacturing other components in HG since there are endless numbers of legacy rigs out there. There simply won’t be new HG products.
It’s going to make life a bit more difficult in the bike shop over the short term identifying compatible components, but as someone who will be affected by this at work, it’s a huge step forward in budget-friendlier bike drivetrains and we’ll worth it.
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In terms of the apple cart, this streamlines incompatible 7-8, 9, and 10-11 groups that appear on a huge range of low to mid-point mountain bikes and brings real 1x drivetrains to price points Shimano hasn’t previously come close too.
There is now significant component interplay from XT level mountain bikes down to budget and kids’ rigs for the first time in decades.
I see no negatives.
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Mammal
1 year, 2 months ago
OK, thanks for the additional breakdown. So it sounds as though I shouldn't be worried, as long as they keep making HG 11spd shifters and Sunrace keeps thinking it's worth it to pump out traditionally spaced 11spd cassettes.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Anytime. I have zero concerns about being able to buy 7-11 speed HG components well into the future, if not forever.
That said if you do need a full-fresh drivetrain for a bike at some point - or are helping a friend buy a fresh rig - definitely check out the LinkGlide options. At the risk of being too familiar, and ignoring the obvious e-bike applications, it was made for folks like us.
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Lu Kz
1 year, 2 months ago
FWIW, I've found bashing various brand 11speed drivetrain components together much more forgiving than 12 speed stuff. Until SRAM/Shimano/e13/sunrace/box/etc drop 'old' 11 speed stuff completely, I woudln't worry. One of my favourite drivetrains to date was SRAM gears and chains on shimano 11 shifting (sometimes with an e13 cassette, sometimes without). Setup was slightly more finnicky than stock but once it was there it was SOLID. So you need a complete abandonment of the spacing across multiple brands before you run into real problems. Besides, I'd have to assume ebay will have your back for at least a solid half decade after production officially ends anyway.
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Unrelated, I think Shimano made a mistake because I was reading all about this exact CUES on their site a couple days ago after the last LG article doing some link hunting from various LG things, which sounds like it was before the consumer launch?
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
si.shimano was up before the media embargo was over, there's actually a comment with a link to it in my XT LG piece. This happens regularly with many different brands, sometimes by accident and sometimes on purpose.
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Ben Bangerter
5 months, 4 weeks ago
Do you have a link because I bought two of the early ones and I'm not sure what to replace.
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RNAYEL
1 year, 2 months ago
This announcement fully vindicates Andrew Major
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Vindicates is what way?
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Lu Kz
1 year, 2 months ago
Andrew Major NSMB Article Summary:
LESS GEARS = BEST GEARS
(it sort of rhymes ok if you force it a bit)
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
I'm generally a big supporter of the right to poetic license, but in this case, publicly swapping 'fewer' for 'less' should result in some kind of state-backed corrective action. Maybe thirty days of wearing '90s Primal Wear jerseys in public?
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Lu Kz
1 year, 2 months ago
You'll have to forgive me, I take my Cues from colloquial language.
That, and I could not figure out how to make it work with 'fewer'.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
True story, before submitting this piece as 'Happy CUES Day' I had a million and one puny titles (Singing the CUES, Your Morning CUES, Crossroad CUES). But yeah, my kid says I'm not as funny as I think I am and I'm starting to take that to heart.
Velocipedestrian
1 year, 2 months ago
Fewer gears = Fewer tears.
Thank you / sorry / etc
Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
@Velocipedestrian that’s beautiful.
RNAYEL
1 year, 2 months ago
"show or prove to be right, reasonable, or justified."
- fewer gears, better chain line, reasonable price, min-max... basically a summary of what you've written about in meat engines and on NSMB for the past few years
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Ah, because the 11spd cassette occupies the same territory as a 12spd the low gear/high torque (on a Me-bike) chainline isn’t that great. Unless you inboard the chainring. It’s for a future article.
Also on the not really vindicated front - CUES 4000 9-speed actually replaces some legacy 7 + 8 speed systems. So the future has more gears there.
But I’ll keep trying!
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UFO
1 year, 2 months ago
On a couple of more recent boost frames, I've been extremely limited by how much I can in-board my chainring mainly due to chainstay clearance. I aim for center alignment on my 3rd or 4th cog, run a 28t 64bcd narrow wide ring mounted to a 2x specific Shimano crank and I have to do some considerable shimming to get 1-2mm chainstay clearance, and I'm pretty sure Shimano would not approve how much crank axle the non drive arm is hanging onto.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Yeah, I’d had some tricky bikes and it’s not helped by direct mount rings where I could space stuff over with 4/5 bolt. Still, nerds will nerd!
Guy Elliott
1 year, 2 months ago
Hard to see M8000 living on much longer
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Yeah, as mentioned in the article, my bet is that XT will be streamlined to two groups. M8130 LinkGlide and also whichever numbering the semi-wireless Di2 gets.
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papa44
1 year, 2 months ago
I can’t believe there isn’t a CUES short cage 10 speed zee mech. I feel like they have totally overlooked a fairly specific and niche corner of the market. Grumble.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
There have been rumours of a Saint/Zee update for years. Using the LG model they could just do a shifter/derailleur and then a non-series cassette. We’ll see.
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fartymarty
1 year, 2 months ago
I would be so happy to see a LG Zee mech - they don't even need to do the shifter.
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easy
1 year, 2 months ago
Correct me if i am wrong, or it was already covered somewhere above (sorry than); But to my understanding all LinkGlide components are interchangeable and compatible? So i can get an XT 11sp LinkGlide shifter to control a 10sp Deore LingGlide M5130 der. pushing any 11sp chain available on the market over a 9sp CUES Linkglide cassette?
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
“Correct me if i am wrong, or it was already covered somewhere above…”
Inter-compatibility is covered throughout the article, including your specific scenario, and it comes up in comments.
I mean, yes that will work by limiting out two clicks of the shifter - all LG cassettes have the same pitch - but why comment on a piece you weren’t interested in reading or join a discussion where you couldn’t be bothered to see what other folks have to say?
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easy
1 year, 2 months ago
i've read the article, and the previous on XT LinkGlide too, than the comments until late yesterday evening. maybe i was too tired to wrap my head around it, or the kids were too loud who knows ;-) thanks for reply!
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
I apologize for my tone.
There are exceptions going the other way - a 9-spd LG derailleur can’t shift a 10/11 cassette - but thanks to the shared cassette pitch there’s more interoperability here than has existed with Shimano since the early noughties.
Very excited to see what other LG options come out (Saint/Zee? 105/Tiagra/Sora?) and how Shimano, and riders, interplay those setups.
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easy
1 year, 2 months ago
no problem, i understand your point :-)
The interoperability, looks pretty promising...
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Steven Hambleton
1 year, 2 months ago
Sadly there's no Multi-Release option on any LinkGlide shifter.
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fartymarty
1 year, 2 months ago
Bummer - even on the XT?
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
You can multi-shift up the cassette (easier gears) but there’s no multi-release function even on XT.
Whether that matters will be a personal thing. I have multi-release on both my Shimano drivetrains but I almost never push through to the second click versus double-clicking so it’s not something I miss at all.
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Bli33ard
1 year ago
I spent the last week trying to figure out what Shimano drivetrain to go with and what I came up with was a MASSIVE HEADACHE! Well you can have this but not with that and five parts are basically the same goddamn thing and then Microspline is only for 12 speed- they even have different f'ing cables? Fuck it, I'm going to look for some vintage XTR 3X9.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
It's not really that complicated? Anything HG+ works with HG+ (all 12-speed). HG 10/11 are inter-compatible. LinkGlide is compatible with LinkGlide regardless of the number of clicks/cogs.
Going forward, Shimano is improving inter-compatibility with LinkGlide which runs from the basic 9-speed CUES U4000 that we'll see on bikes under a grand right through to the XT M8130 I've been riding. LinkGlide is not compatible with HG or HG+.
Anyway, if you're looking to min-max the best combination of what's available I know there's a helpful person at your preferred local bike shop that would be happy to dial you in. I'm also happy to try and answer any questions.
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Bli33ard
1 year ago
Yes, I understand it completely, that's why it pisses me off.
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fartymarty
1 year ago
Zee mech, XT 10 speed shifter, 11-42 Shimano Cassette, XT chain - good and cheap.
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Lynx .
4 weeks, 1 day ago
Hey Andrew, how's it going? Was just checking in to see if you'd made any progress with exploring the compatibility of the new CUES stuff with older Shimano stuff, like 9, 10 or 11spd?
I'd be all over it, if not for the fact that well, we can't basically get anything locally, so too expensive to experiment like this.
For those of us who don't like to waste $$, if we could maybe mate a few of the new parts with old, that would be really sweet.
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Justin White
1 year, 2 months ago
It's worth noting that the clutch has zero effect on the shift action on horizontal parallelogram type mechs like these. The shifter will fully click to the next gear before the cage moves at all, so even small hands would be fine on U6000. This is part of why b-tension is so much more important on these style mechs: it needs room to move the cage inward before the cage pivots.
Yes, on older mechs with a diagonally-oriented parallelograms, the cage does have to pivot a bit against the cage spring and clutch to allow the inward movement, making the action heavier at the shifter level when the clutch is on, but that doesn't happen on CUES or HG+ (or Eagle or SRAM-11).
It's a huge part of why I went to back to Shimano (12sp) after being SRAM-only ever since X01 11sp happened. Always loved the snappy light shift action of SRAM 11sp & Eagle, but wanted the durability and precision of Shimano again. SLX shifter, XT mech, GX cassette, XO1 chain, RaceFace ring. Snappy, durable, quiet: pick 3.
*(dead quiet when not shifting and very quiet when downshifting: it does thunk when I upshift under power, but it still makes the shift. Maybe I'll someday get a MicroSpline freehub and HG+ cassette whenever I need a new cassette...)
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Have to strongly disagree regarding the clutch. IRL shifting action gets noticeably lighter when the clutch is completely disengaged or, as I prefer it, detuned. Clutch tuning and serviceability remaining the key benefits of Shimano’s clutched rear derailleurs.
(This seems to be especially noticeable on some full-suspension designs, presumably due to the interplay between the drivetrain and suspension).
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Lu Kz
1 year, 2 months ago
All you gotta do to show that clutches DO have a substantial impact on shift performance is crank the clutch tension (on systems that allow it) and watch your bike struggle to shift at all.
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Justin White
1 year, 2 months ago
Not talking shift performance, this is about the action at the lever.
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IslandLife
1 year, 2 months ago
Yep, detuned the clutch on my son's deore derailleur which made it much easier for his little thumb to shift. It's pretty easy to test... crank it down, push the shifter. Crank it up, push the shifter. It's noticeably lighter with a lighter clutch set-up.
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fartymarty
1 year, 2 months ago
I've run my Zee with the clutch off (on commuter bike) and it definitely makes the shifting lighter. I can't speak for any other Shimano mechs tho as i've been on Zee for as long as I can remember.
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Justin White
1 year, 2 months ago
Zee uses an angled parallelogram, where the p-knuckle pivot (the one with the clutch) moves away from the cranks during a downshift, so it makes sense the clutch would have an effect there. And I mentioned this above.
CUES, Shimano 12sp, and SRAM 11sp & 12sp all use horizontal parallelograms where the p-knuckle pivot, with the clutch in it, does not move in relation to the cranks. IRL, my SLX shifter fully clicks into place, with the same action, before the XT mech's cage moves at all, whether the clutch is on or off.
I'm not saying all mechs/shifters are not effected by the clutch. I'm saying I can feel no difference in new horizontal parallelogram mechs, and I can directly see why: no clutch pivot movement means no cage movement during the shift lever movement, and no cage movement means no clutch impact.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
For folks who are curious to prove/disprove this in their own minds, I’m certain your local shop doesn’t mind throwing a new bike in a stand for you to shift through the gears with the clutch on and off so you can feel the difference. You’ll experience the biggest difference pushing through a multi-gear shift.
Justin White
1 year, 2 months ago
Is that a 12sp HG+ or CUES derailleur (assuming not SRAM since you can tune the clutch)? Or an older style with the angled parallelogram, which I mentioned are still effected by clutch tension?
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Justin White
1 year, 2 months ago
Have you detuned a CUES or HG+ clutch? Or only referring to older designs? I'm not saying it doesn't have an effect on other Shimano mechs, only that it shouldn't on CUES and HG+ (and doesn't in my experience with SLX/XT HG+).
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Justin, I turn wrenches in a shop. I’m currently riding Shimano XT LinkGlide M8130, with the clutch detuned. I have a ton of hours on HG+ drivetrains including the Deore M6100 setup I reviewed for NSMB.
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Justin White
9 months, 3 weeks ago
I don't care what your other job is, or how many miles you have on these new mechs. I did not doubt your ability to do the detune, I just asked if you've actually done it on any of these new mechs. Which you actually answered, though did not specify if you had also done it on the M6100 with all the miles on it.
You're right about the multi-shift. I think it's because it is waiting for the ramps to grab more chain and then rotate the cage, so you're pushing the chain against the bigger cogs more than pushing against the clutch. Turning off the clutch seems to allow the cage to rotate faster, perhaps starting the shift without the shift ramps, so the upper cog can move into plane with the bigger cogs faster, relieving tension in the cable and lever.
I'm glad you found something that works as you intended for your daughter, but I do have to wonder how many 3 or 4 gear multi-shifts she's slamming through on a regular basis.
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