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Spinal cord Armageddon!

Nov. 25, 2024, 8:18 a.m.
Posts: 1049
Joined: Jan. 2, 2018

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: tungsten

We're getting old and cranky watching the assault on a healthcare system we, as seniors, are increasingly in need of, by idealogues like Ford and Higgs and thus resent outfits like Vail, a US entity, making a profit that leaves the country while leaving behind cost stressors on that very healthcare system. 

You make a valid point here when considering a very big picture. However, I think there are other areas of health care where efficiencies and cost savings can be found before we go down this road. What you suggest seems like one of those things that would not offer a positive return over the cost to administer it.

Interesting - so are you guys saying the net medical costs attributable to Whistler are a net drain, when measured against the direct and indirect tax revenues generated as a result of the bike park existing?

Meaning ,Vails corporate taxes, lift pass taxes, hotels, net increases in property taxes due to the impact the report has on property values? bike rentals, bike and gear purchases, gas, pizza, general economic impact and spending in squamish and Pemberton etc etc, still a negative result? Wow. 

I guess it is a complicated calculation, maybe I'm wrong, but I find that very, very hard to believe...  

Same question applies to the study - 200m lifetime cost to the province, would be interesting to know the timespan used and if that is net of revenues the province recognizes province-wide from the bike industry.

Nov. 25, 2024, 8:38 a.m.
Posts: 3676
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

I'm not making any assumptions about what the net medical costs are measured against tax revenues. 

I am saying I think any money that might be saved from tungsten's idea would get eaten up in bureaucratic costs and probably end up as a net loss.

Nov. 25, 2024, 9:36 a.m.
Posts: 1049
Joined: Jan. 2, 2018

Fair enough, I guess I'm more questioning the premise itself.

Nov. 25, 2024, 9:51 a.m.
Posts: 3676
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: Kenny

Fair enough, I guess I'm more questioning the premise itself.

Yeah, same here. When mtb was more of a fringe activity these sorts of things were easy to ignore because they represented such a small number of incidents. But as mtb has become more mainstream then the accident/injury rate is something to be concerned with on several points.

Nov. 25, 2024, 10 a.m.
Posts: 171
Joined: Feb. 12, 2020

Posted by: tashi

Did you just seriously advocate for skills tests?

Ooooh! I remember back in like 2013 Blue Mountain Bike Park in Ontario (RIP) had a mandatory skills test to ride their 'advanced' jump trail Haole, and later their larger jump trail H-twenty, once that was built. When you bought your ticket you had to tell the person at the wicket that you wanted to do the skills test, take the chair to the top, and then hope there was an employee at the skills zone to administer the test. It was like, a one foot tall table top and a skinny. Once you passed, you got a sticker on your pass. They kept an employee at the trail entrance who was supposed to be checking stickers and controlling access (the bike police!). The trail was pretty tame by modern standards but that's Ontario for you I guess. I suppose it worked because the only people to (famously) die at Blue Mountain in recent memory didn't die on either of the jump trails. 

I know it's probably bad to put my minor discomfort right after a sentence about people dying while mountain biking, but after the first resort ski day of the year, I am experiencing my own (small) spinal cord armageddon. I'm sure Mark has some exercises for that.

Nov. 25, 2024, 10:58 a.m.
Posts: 34
Joined: April 4, 2022

I was tangentially involved in a project that was right beside A-line, and on a few days was just hanging out right beside the trail. I would say about 1/3 of the riders I saw had absolutely no business being on that trail. People in half shells, barely keeping their balance, or on terrible rattle trap bikes. It was crazy, and we also so a crazy amount of injuries getting responded to. It seemed like tons of people show up at the bike park, and go straight to A line because its so famous. 

I personally think Whistler should be more explicit with squirrel catchers, like a sign saying "If you cannot ride this feature, choose another trail or expect to walk all remaining features on this trail." Or alternatively, provide a progression check sign for some of the bigger trails. For example, on A-Line have a sign that says "Only attempt this trail if you can comfortably ride Crank it Up." 

Alot of accidents happen I think because people just aren't calibrated to bike park difficulties. Sure you can ride blacks back home, but the WBP blacks are quite different, especially the jump trails. I typically ride sea to sky double blacks, but I find even A Line a challenge just because I am not a jumper.

Nov. 25, 2024, 11:40 a.m.
Posts: 171
Joined: Feb. 12, 2020

Posted by: Coiler

I was tangentially involved in a project that was right beside A-line, and on a few days was just hanging out right beside the trail. I would say about 1/3 of the riders I saw had absolutely no business being on that trail. People in half shells, barely keeping their balance, or on terrible rattle trap bikes. It was crazy, and we also so a crazy amount of injuries getting responded to. It seemed like tons of people show up at the bike park, and go straight to A line because its so famous. 

I personally think Whistler should be more explicit with squirrel catchers, like a sign saying "If you cannot ride this feature, choose another trail or expect to walk all remaining features on this trail." Or alternatively, provide a progression check sign for some of the bigger trails. For example, on A-Line have a sign that says "Only attempt this trail if you can comfortably ride Crank it Up." 

Alot of accidents happen I think because people just aren't calibrated to bike park difficulties. Sure you can ride blacks back home, but the WBP blacks are quite different, especially the jump trails. I typically ride sea to sky double blacks, but I find even A Line a challenge just because I am not a jumper.

If I knew someone who had the photos or where to get them, I'd love to do a mini-article on the history of squirrel catchers on A-Line. I find it extremely funny. I'm sure there's decades worth of full-pull a-line laps out there that I could put it together if I wanted. 

The first year I moved out, there was a ghetto kind of squirrel catcher thing that they clearly moved away when it was ski season. I wasn't good enough for a-line back then so I don't really remember. A year or two later, they added what was, at the time, a pretty famous squirrel catcher. It was that permanent wooden deck thing with a mandatory drop off the end. A year or two later, I guess they thought that caught too many squirrels so they added a roll to it, entirely nullifying its purpose. Then some litigious injuries happened on a-line, so it was back to a drop, but they added some janky lattice work wood below the drop so from the chair it LOOKED like a roll, but wasn't. Bonus sketch! Then the whole wooden platform got taken out in favour of a weird little ramp thing (like two feet high) a couple corners, and a jump or two. That lasted a couple seasons. I went this year for the first time in a while and it has like four kind of gappy jumps but ultimately ones without consequence of casing as the squirrel catcher. Funny stuff.

Nov. 25, 2024, 12:04 p.m.
Posts: 3676
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

^^^

The best part was watching people look at that thing, realize they couldn't do it and then walk their bikes around it and go down A-line anyways.

Nov. 25, 2024, 1:44 p.m.
Posts: 3847
Joined: May 23, 2006

Posted by: Kenny

Meaning ,Vails corporate taxes, lift pass taxes, hotels, net increases in property taxes due to the impact the report has on property values? bike rentals, bike and gear purchases, gas, pizza, general economic impact and spending in squamish and Pemberton etc etc, still a negative result? Wow. 

I guess it is a complicated calculation, maybe I'm wrong, but I find that very, very hard to believe...  

Not saying the park doesn't generate revenue and positively impact peeps lives, but all those taxes aren't folded directly into healthcare.

Nov. 25, 2024, 1:48 p.m.
Posts: 3847
Joined: May 23, 2006

Posted by: syncro

I'm not making any assumptions about what the net medical costs are measured against tax revenues. 

I am saying I think any money that might be saved from tungsten's idea would get eaten up in bureaucratic costs and probably end up as a net loss.

Fair enough, but what's an intact spinal cord worth?

Nov. 25, 2024, 2:04 p.m.
Posts: 630
Joined: April 15, 2017

It's happening in all the niche sports :
https://www.whistlerdailypost.com/2024/11/25/back-fractures-at-whistler-sliding-centre-part-of-steady-rate-of-injuries-report/

Nov. 25, 2024, 2:04 p.m.
Posts: 517
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Posted by: Kever

Why did neck braces go out of style in the downhill realm? They make a lot of sense to me. My buddies and I wear them. 

Good question. I've been wondering the same thing.  I've heard you are more likely to break your collar bone but less likely to break your neck?  Neck braces used to be pretty common, but these days I see a lot of fast young riders without them who are very skilled, but who are likely to get seriously injured  if/when they crash.

Nov. 25, 2024, 2:52 p.m.
Posts: 3676
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: tungsten

Posted by: syncro

I'm not making any assumptions about what the net medical costs are measured against tax revenues. 

I am saying I think any money that might be saved from tungsten's idea would get eaten up in bureaucratic costs and probably end up as a net loss.

Fair enough, but what's an intact spinal cord worth?

Oh I agree with you on that aspect, but that's more a participant responsibility type of thing imo. That's where it falls apart a bit. However, now that most of us are living to be about 80 and a majority of people (2/3rds) are experiencing cognitive decline by the time they are 70 it makes sense to start paying attention to these sorts of things that affect brain health. And of course living out life after getting a spinal cord injury isn't a pleasant idea either. Consider the recent article how fast do you ride at night. It's lots of fun, but I wonder how many people give serious thought to the risks and consequences they're exposing themselves to.

Nov. 25, 2024, 5:05 p.m.
Posts: 1306
Joined: March 16, 2017

Posted by: tungsten

Posted by: Endurimil

Ok,...so to be clear....

-getting hurt even seriously riding thrill craft through the trees is bad.

- riding thrill craft on roads and with vehicles getting seriously hurt aka maimed and killed by drivers is good.

Got it.

Brilliant.

Don't know why you advocate drunk driving. Spinal cord injury costs the same either way.

Hey. That isn’t advocating drunk driving however thanks for spinning it To fit your narrative.

Yeah… I am being extremely hostile and have earned the right to be.

I speak as a rider who was left to die by a fucking car driver. Why the fuck would I advocate drunk driving?

[Edited by Mod - please keep it respectful - no personal attacks]


 Last edited by: [email protected] on Nov. 26, 2024, 4:20 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
Reason: moderation
Nov. 25, 2024, 5:13 p.m.
Posts: 1306
Joined: March 16, 2017

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: tungsten

Posted by: syncro

I'm not making any assumptions about what the net medical costs are measured against tax revenues. 

I am saying I think any money that might be saved from tungsten's idea would get eaten up in bureaucratic costs and probably end up as a net loss.

Fair enough, but what's an intact spinal cord worth?

Oh I agree with you on that aspect, but that's more a participant responsibility type of thing imo. That's where it falls apart a bit. However, now that most of us are living to be about 80 and a majority of people (2/3rds) are experiencing cognitive decline by the time they are 70 it makes sense to start paying attention to these sorts of things that affect brain health. And of course living out life after getting a spinal cord injury isn't a pleasant idea either. Consider the recent article how fast do you ride at night. It's lots of fun, but I wonder how many people give serious thought to the risks and consequences they're exposing themselves to.

On a more positive post note during 2019 came upon some other info in relation to head and such injuries.

https://www.lorrainetruong.ch/insider-out

What caught my eye was helmet weight and the other one being training neck muscles. The training neck muscles is interesting as when did martial arts that was part of every martial arts session. Same with wrestling. In the 1980’s that was part of any basic weight trading or bodybuilding program. 

Same year talked with a trainer at the now long closed gym was member of. Former CFL and other sports. He after reading it said it made absolute sense. He is right in that the neck muscles do play a role in decreasing level of injury.

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