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your frame is crap

Jan. 8, 2015, 6:32 p.m.
Posts: 1885
Joined: Oct. 16, 2005

No. Roadies are very flat earth when it comes to change.

Ha!

See new 12mm front thru-axle standard.

See disc brake mounting pattern change (RIP post mount standard spacing).

See variety of proprietary seat masts.

See press-fit BBs.

See electronic shifting (also see firmware updates for electronic shifting).

See the birth of the ever changing BCD (mountain biking has pretty much taken that over now).

See low spoke count wheels (Dog bless 32h J-Bend spoke wheels).

No branch of the bike industry family tree is immune to the disease of change for change sake. No point in trying to cut off some bad limbs either it's in the roots.

Mean People SUCK! Nice People SHOVEL!

Trails For All; Trails For Weather

Jan. 8, 2015, 9:28 p.m.
Posts: 15019
Joined: April 5, 2007

I like how the bike I bought in 2014 is now obsolete. Fuck yeah!

Good riddance ;)

So if RockShox was the first company out with 15mm x 110mm you'd boycott them? (Not intended as a trick question: yes RS-1 is already out with 15mm x 110mm but it is totally proprietary so we won't count it).

How do you feel about the second company to launch a fork that is 15mm x 110mm?

I agree that 20mm x 110mm works perfectly fine, but at least 15mm x 110mm is a minor change that any high-end hub manufacturer will be able to retro-fit with an axle swap//hub spacers.

Nowhere near as stupid as 148.

My only question is will my DT240s CL Fifteen hubs convert to 20mm so I can run the 20mm axle on my 36 and finally ride in blissful content?

I ride a steel 1-speed in an un-fashionable wheel size so I'm not an authority.

Ah DrewM, NSMBs very own mtn biking hipster! What with his beard and flannel shirts, and hating on the systems!

If they all get onboard at the same time not a whole lot one can do. My own personal buying habits isn't going to affect anything. The last fork I bought that didn't come in a full bike was a used 2005 36 in 2009 for $100 :) It's still going along pretty good.

Your xxx'er is showing!

Why slag free swag?:rolleyes:

ummm, as your doctor i recommend against riding with a scaphoid fracture.

Jan. 8, 2015, 9:44 p.m.
Posts: 1885
Joined: Oct. 16, 2005

Good riddance ;)

My only question is will my DT240s CL Fifteen hubs convert to 20mm so I can run the 20mm axle on my 36 and finally ride in blissful content?

Depends on what hub shell it is based off of… I believe the CL hubs were based off their 9mm QR hub in which case you are SOL. That said, I will bet Shirk-Brian a 6-Pack-o'-craft that DT Swiss offers a conversion kit to 15 x 110mm.

DT actually made a 240 20mm hub that was super-light and very sweet with reasonably tall flanges for its weight (and could be converted to 15mm) but I believe it was only 6-Bolt.

Your bad for buying a CL hub to begin with… What did those 6x little torx bolts ever do to you?! "It's lighter" you say… "It's faster to swap rotors provided I have a cassette tool on hand" you say… "I can still run standard 6-bolt rotors by using an adapter" you say… I say "PFFFFFffffffftttttttttt."

I for one am happy that HAYES' two major contributions to mountain biking (the 6-Bolt rotor Standard and the PM disc brake Standard) have lived on long past their relevance as a brake manufacturer.

Ah DrewM, NSMBs very own mtn biking hipster! What with his beard and flannel shirts, and hating on the systems!

I think I might hate you… [HTML_REMOVED]3

To be fair… okay, so all I've got is that I shaved that unkempt mess (just when it got cold too… f*** I miss my built in face warmer).

Mean People SUCK! Nice People SHOVEL!

Trails For All; Trails For Weather

Jan. 8, 2015, 9:55 p.m.
Posts: 15019
Joined: April 5, 2007

I cut deeper than an emo kid!

Well Norco bike parts distribution only was carrying the CL hubs when I ordered the 240s. 6-bolt, which is what I originally wanted had to be "special" ordered or some shit like that, multi months delay, etc…

I may have put on my best mesh tank-top, and some weird techno music to venture into the crazy world of online German bike shops and found some DT240s hub bearings.

The positive is I now run 180mm IceTech CL/160 XTR CL rotors. Im so cutting-edge I'll die of blood lose!

Why slag free swag?:rolleyes:

ummm, as your doctor i recommend against riding with a scaphoid fracture.

Jan. 9, 2015, 8:42 a.m.
Posts: 5740
Joined: May 28, 2005

I've not sat down yet and drawn out the clearances but I suspect there will be a change the the disc tab in relation to the inside of the drop out to limit the ability to just pop new end caps on your existing hubs. Brake adaptors might be able to compensate but post mount doesn't leave much room to play with.

i think you are right, but couldn't companies (or hackers) use offset end caps to compensate for the change in disc tab location? you'd have to build a weirdly dished front wheel, but that works well enough out back

Ha!

you forgot a flirtation with 650c wheels (is better for tri?)

in defence of roadies they were the original targets of 650b wheel mania (see grim, matthew and petersen, grant) but managed to suppress it into a niche, where it rightly belongs

"Nobody really gives a shit that you don't like the thing that you have no firsthand experience with." Dave

Jan. 9, 2015, 9:03 a.m.
Posts: 5635
Joined: Oct. 28, 2008

I cut deeper than an emo kid!

The bike industry's useless change to create an unnecessary demand (ie a license to print their own fucking money) is why emo kids are cutting themselves. Can someone lend me some eyeliner?

Wrong. Always.

Jan. 9, 2015, 9:05 a.m.
Posts: 5635
Joined: Oct. 28, 2008

Well, some of these changes in the road biking industry might give the riders an edge as far as racing. But does a 15x110 axle give an Enduro Racer a millisecond or greater advantage over 15x100?

Wrong. Always.

Jan. 9, 2015, 9:13 a.m.
Posts: 3730
Joined: March 6, 2003

I've not sat down yet and drawn out the clearances but I suspect there will be a change the the disc tab in relation to the inside of the drop out to limit the ability to just pop new end caps on your existing hubs. Brake adaptors might be able to compensate but post mount doesn't leave much room to play with.

What about a spacer between the rotor and the hub using longer disk rotor bolts.

Depending on how far over the rotor needs to be spaced, things could work in conjunction with a longer axle…no?

www.FVMBA.com 

"If everything seems in control, you're not going fast enough."
-Mario Andretti-

Jan. 9, 2015, 9:25 a.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Sept. 20, 2006

What about a spacer between the rotor and the hub using longer disk rotor bolts.

Depending on how far over the rotor needs to be spaced, things could work in conjunction with a longer axle…no?

5mm spacer might be a bit much.

No need to panic, as 15x100 and 20x110 forks are still being made. This 15x110 is OEM spec for now. My only advice is someone buying on of these new bikes should consider if they will want to change parts in the future. Look at how difficult it still is for giant owners to get headsets, stems and forks for their 1 1/4 steerer equipped bikes.

Jan. 9, 2015, 9:32 a.m.
Posts: 8935
Joined: Dec. 23, 2005

5mm spacer might be a bit much.

No need to panic, as 15x100 and 20x110 forks are still being made. This 15x110 is OEM spec for now. My only advice is someone buying on of these new bikes should consider if they will want to change parts in the future. Look at how difficult it still is for giant owners to get headsets, stems and forks for their 1 1/4 steerer equipped bikes.

You have a spec drawing for 15x110 you can share?

If no funky trickery was done with the rotor/disc location is't kinda a moot point as it's just end caps to solve the problem.

Jan. 9, 2015, 12:33 p.m.
Posts: 5740
Joined: May 28, 2005

This 15x110 is OEM spec for now.

right, for now. but regardless of their merits (or lack thereof), these new "standards", initially presented as providing more choice (always a good thing!), end up edging out older standards (see: 26" wheels), reducing choice and the relevance of older components

one of the things i've always loved about bikes is that, unlike so many consumer goods, it was possible to preserve the lifespan of a bike for decades by replacing components as they were damaged or wore out. this made the bicycle an incredibly resilient, economical and sustainable tool/vehicle

now, whatever its intentions and motivations, the industry seems to hell bent on making bikes more akin to other, more disposable or consumable items: "sorry, we can't get a fork for that wheelsize" or "that axle standard isn't supported anymore; you'll have buy new wheels/hubs"

yeah, there are gains to be realized through innovation and experimentation. but if not managed properly, those small, individualized gains threaten the overall health of the industry and alienate consumers/cyclists - thereby threatening and undercutting the status and viability of the bicycle itself:

  • long time/dedicated cyclists get sick of the direction the industry is moving in (see: this whole thread)
  • new customers are intially drawn in by marketing hype (oooh, shiny!) - but in two years when the try to get something serviced or replaced, they're faced with the increasinly likely prospect of being told the part is no longer available or supported, and faced with a much higher than anticipated charge for what they want/need: likely reaction? "screw this, the sport is too expensive" (sound familiar?)

edit: totally not picking on you ken, just using your comment as a segue…

"Nobody really gives a shit that you don't like the thing that you have no firsthand experience with." Dave

Jan. 9, 2015, 2:55 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Sept. 20, 2006

You have a spec drawing for 15x110 you can share?

If no funky trickery was done with the rotor/disc location is't kinda a moot point as it's just end caps to solve the problem.

No drawing to share, but the brake mounts are in the same position on the lowers, so relative to a 15x100mm fork, moved 5mm outboard. The 110 hub adds 10mm in the middle, so the brake tab to disc mount distance is the same. If you use a 100m hub, you need to keep the exact same end cap on the disc side to maintain that distance, and possible retrofit a end cap that is 10mm longer on the non-disc side. That is a solution that I doubt many manufacturers will offer since it offsets the hub dramatically and might even result in the need for a wheel relace since the non-disc side spokes would likely too short to re-dish the wheel.

right, for now. but regardless of their merits (or lack thereof), these new "standards", initially presented as providing more choice (always a good thing!), end up edging out older standards (see: 26" wheels), reducing choice and the relevance of older components

one of the things i've always loved about bikes is that, unlike so many consumer goods, it was possible to preserve the lifespan of a bike for decades by replacing components as they were damaged or wore out. this made the bicycle an incredibly resilient, economical and sustainable tool/vehicle

now, whatever its intentions and motivations, the industry seems to hell bent on making bikes more akin to other, more disposable or consumable items: "sorry, we can't get a fork for that wheelsize" or "that axle standard isn't supported anymore; you'll have buy new wheels/hubs"

yeah, there are gains to be realized through innovation and experimentation. but if not managed properly, those small, individualized gains threaten the overall health of the industry and alienate consumers/cyclists - thereby threatening and undercutting the status and viability of the bicycle itself:

  • long time/dedicated cyclists get sick of the direction the industry is moving in (see: this whole thread)
  • new customers are intially drawn in by marketing hype (oooh, shiny!) - but in two years when the try to get something serviced or replaced, they're faced with the increasinly likely prospect of being told the part is no longer available or supported, and faced with a much higher than anticipated charge for what they want/need: likely reaction? "screw this, the sport is too expensive" (sound familiar?)

edit: totally not picking on you ken, just using your comment as a segue…

For some applications, there is a legitimate need for 15x110. If you reference our Sherpa prototype, you see that we used a WTB Trailblazer 27.5x2.8 tire, but with a 29er Fox 32. The side clearance is not ideal, and would not pass safety standards. With the wider pitch fork, you may as well use a wider hub, hence 110. Yes it is possible to build the wider pitch fork with 100 spacing, but then you add material to the fork to take up the spacer. Why not go for more improvements by using wider spaced flanges?

I don't have a position on 15x110 for regular mountain bikes using up to 2.5" tires, but for something that requires a bigger tire, I don't see any fuss using a different hub.

As stated earlier, I do see an issue with heel strikes on 148 rear end using traditional q-factors. This ugly problem will present itself quickly I think. I think if 148 sticks around, then it would be wise to rethink what q-factors are possible/comfortable on a mountain bike. Research has shown that narrow q-factors are more efficient and reduce the likelihood of knee injuries, but I see lots of guys pedalling around on flats with the feet hanging off the sides of the pedals. Worth considering what is possible, maybe a 174mm q-factor is still comfortable.

Food for thought.

Jan. 9, 2015, 3:48 p.m.
Posts: 294
Joined: April 26, 2004

Research has shown that narrow q-factors are more efficient and reduce the likelihood of knee injuries, but I see lots of guys pedalling around on flats with the feet hanging off the sides of the pedals. Worth considering what is possible, maybe a 174mm q-factor is still comfortable.

I have looked high and low for research proving narrower q is better, except for aerodynamics, naturally knock-kneed riders and people with very narrow pelvises.
Some mfrs. in the past, such as BullsEye, have boasted that wide q is more stable for mtn biking
myself, I find that medium q results in less side to side knee motion

ps: I am not defending the new (non) 110/148 standard, I still prefer 3 chainrings

Jan. 9, 2015, 3:57 p.m.
Posts: 160
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

well I already get lots of heel rub on my stays, I can't imagine this change is going to help me….

Jan. 9, 2015, 4:38 p.m.
Posts: 2121
Joined: Nov. 6, 2005

I think Q factor will need to change slightly in order for better heel clearance to happen moving forward. Stays are not going to get narrower even if Boost 148 shits the bed.

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