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your frame is crap

Jan. 9, 2015, 8:43 p.m.
Posts: 15019
Joined: April 5, 2007

Shimano electronic shifting is not that ground breaking. ]

Umm… You missed the point.

Di2 10 spd was 2013, 2014 and on have been Di2 11 spd. DrewM is saying finding Di2 10Spd product might be difficult now as there is no longer manufacture support. That means Di2 10spd drivetrains were around at the consumer level for less than a handful of yearssomeone will chime in with the numbers

Getting back to your tangent, the difference being that the Shimano system is widely available for consumer purchase. And actually works!

Why slag free swag?:rolleyes:

ummm, as your doctor i recommend against riding with a scaphoid fracture.

Jan. 9, 2015, 9:42 p.m.
Posts: 1885
Joined: Oct. 16, 2005

Umm… You missed the point.

Di2 10 spd was 2013, 2014 and on have been Di2 11 spd. DrewM is saying finding Di2 10Spd product might be difficult now as there is no longer manufacture support. That means Di2 10spd drivetrains were around at the consumer level for less than a handful of yearssomeone will chime in with the numbers

Getting back to your tangent, the difference being that the Shimano system is widely available for consumer purchase. And actually works!

Thank You.

This year, the top ten bike brands will take a long, hard look at the off-road motorcycle industry[HTML_REMOVED]#8217;s successful model and recognize the foolishness of committing all of their development funds and manpower to develop a handful of superbikes that few can afford, and instead, redirect their efforts in earnest to build superbike performance into a larger number of mountain bikes that many can afford.

FROM: http://www.pinkbike.com/news/opinion-this-year.html

I've never been much of a RC fan, but this pretty much sums up how you could solve every issue in this entire thread.

Dirt Bikes are relatively cheap because of the huge amount of carry over year-to-year. Your amortization of engineering and development costs, and of molds, over a number of units isn't about the number of item X you make in a year, it's about how many you make over 5-10+ years.

You also can have a thriving aftermarket (accessories / tuning / customization) because those companies know they are investing in products that will have long term compatibility (imagine how many sets of levers Straitline had for Juicy's and Shimano XT/Saint/Deore brakes when all of a sudden BAM! Elixir and Servo-Wave!

Mean People SUCK! Nice People SHOVEL!

Trails For All; Trails For Weather

Jan. 10, 2015, 12:06 a.m.
Posts: 643
Joined: March 25, 2011

Hmmm the 148 standard…a sinister, yet potentially (if successful) effective way for Big Company to squeeze Little Company just a bit more. Sounds like business as usual and I doubt there is any bro brah at the corporate level among these companies. The investment for molds for smaller companies like Yeti, Intense and Santa Cruz have put in for full ranges of bikes (and all their sizes) is pretty bloody high. Like Drew said about the Moto industry; I'm pretty sure the guys at Yeti, Intense and Santa Cruz would LOVE to sit on an existing design, at least for a couple years, before completely re-tooling.

Jan. 10, 2015, 8:04 a.m.
Posts: 967
Joined: Feb. 28, 2014

Thank You.

I've never been much of a RC fan, but this pretty much sums up how you could solve every issue in this entire thread.

Dirt Bikes are relatively cheap because of the huge amount of carry over year-to-year. Your amortization of engineering and development costs, and of molds, over a number of units isn't about the number of item X you make in a year, it's about how many you make over 5-10+ years.

You also can have a thriving aftermarket (accessories / tuning / customization) because those companies know they are investing in products that will have long term compatibility (imagine how many sets of levers Straitline had for Juicy's and Shimano XT/Saint/Deore brakes when all of a sudden BAM! Elixir and Servo-Wave!

For all the flack he gets (or had gotten) the dude has some very good viewpoints on the industry. He's been around forever and has seen everything I'm sure.

In regards to the motorcycle industry, you are correct, as most brands tend to operate on 5 year rebuild plans. That is, complete ground up makeovers on dirtbikes, with year to year smaller changes. Some brands in mountain biking seem to completely revamp their lines every year. New carbon molds every 2-3 years, that kind of thing.

It also has to do with the number of units sold. Its also quite a bit different in that you have the big 5 (KTM, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki) each selling a handful of off road models. I wonder how many KTM 450sx's were sold in comparison to how many Giant Reigns were sold? I'm sure the numbers are out there. Let's say KTM sold 30,000 450sx's vs Giant sold 5000 of that one Giant Reign model. Get my point? There are a million mountain bike brands selling a bunch of models, with variances within the models. Some mtb brands offer four builds within the same model! That's just crazy. If they would offer two, they might not lose any sales, they could probably sell the same dollar amount spread over half the number of sku's.

Then the California equation comes into play, where there may be as many legal motocross tracks as there are good legal mountain biking areas. If bikes are similarly priced, you know the kid who lives near a track in suburbia with no trails will pick the moto all day long. Decent mountain biking areas seem to be more isolated and fragmented in comparison. If you look at the number of units sold, California largely dictates the motocross industry Worldwide.

I could be wrong on all these points, as it is only my semi educated viewpoint. In regards to the market though, the two "sports" couldn't be any more different.

Jan. 10, 2015, 10:44 a.m.
Posts: 481
Joined: May 8, 2010

Thank You.

I've never been much of a RC fan, but this pretty much sums up how you could solve every issue in this entire thread.

Dirt Bikes are relatively cheap because of the huge amount of carry over year-to-year. Your amortization of engineering and development costs, and of molds, over a number of units isn't about the number of item X you make in a year, it's about how many you make over 5-10+ years.

You also can have a thriving aftermarket (accessories / tuning / customization) because those companies know they are investing in products that will have long term compatibility (imagine how many sets of levers Straitline had for Juicy's and Shimano XT/Saint/Deore brakes when all of a sudden BAM! Elixir and Servo-Wave!

These are all fantastic ideas in theory….. It would be amazing if the bike industry could do this, and maybe, MAYBE it's almost reached a point of technological development that it is possible (belief that things can't get much better than they are now)

But, at the same time, I think we are still in an era (hopefully near the end of it) of proprietary, cock stroking "I though of this first" manufacturing mentality where they're still a ways to go.

Not to mention some smaller companies still trying to come up to the level of the big 3, rather than just finding a way to distinguish themselves.

Consumers will end up driving that. From what I have been hearing, a lot of people aren't really all that pumped at the idea of having to spend minimum $5K to get either a low end spec carbon bike, or a mid spec aluminum bike.

Jan. 10, 2015, 2:50 p.m.
Posts: 1045
Joined: May 30, 2004

It also has to do with the number of units sold. Its also quite a bit different in that you have the big 5 (KTM, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki) each selling a handful of off road models. I wonder how many KTM 450sx's were sold in comparison to how many Giant Reigns were sold? I'm sure the numbers are out there. Let's say KTM sold 30,000 450sx's vs Giant sold 5000 of that one Giant Reign model. Get my point? There are a million mountain bike brands selling a bunch of models, with variances within the models. Some mtb brands offer four builds within the same model

Also don't forget that bike manufacturer's generally have to cut molds or weld fixtures for at least 4 frame sizes for each frame model. Big $$$ especially with carbon.

Jan. 10, 2015, 3:11 p.m.
Posts: 664
Joined: March 9, 2005

So glad I still use the bikes I've been riding for the last ten years they work fine ride well and I don't have to bow to the bike industries fashionistas.

The raw, primitive, unrefined trails that see little to no maintenance are the kinds of trails that really build skill. What kind of skills do you learn riding a trail that was made by a machine, groomed to perfection and void of any rocks, roots or other obstacles that could send you careening over the handlebars?

Jan. 10, 2015, 5:05 p.m.
Posts: 15019
Joined: April 5, 2007

Also don't forget that bike manufacturer's generally have to cut molds or weld fixtures for at least 4 frame sizes for each frame model. Big $$$ especially with carbon.

Using the KTM 450F example, I assume the 450 SX-F, 450 XC-F, 450 XC-W, 450EXC all use the same basic mainframe, with combustion and component changes to suit the end use?

Since we are picking on Giant Bikes right now, I'll continue to use the Reign as an example:
Four bike models
Four sizes
Four unique colourways
Two front triangle material choices
One rear triangle

Sixteen different products that need to be stocked by the distributor for the one model bike!

I don't even want to discuss what Norco is doing with the Range/Sights

Why slag free swag?:rolleyes:

ummm, as your doctor i recommend against riding with a scaphoid fracture.

Jan. 10, 2015, 5:18 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Sept. 20, 2006

I thought clearance was fine with a 29" Pike?

Never checked. Still might not pass safety standards though.

Jan. 10, 2015, 5:33 p.m.
Posts: 2009
Joined: July 19, 2003

Since we are picking on Giant Bikes right now, I'll continue to use the Reign as an example:
Four bike models
Four sizes
Four unique colourways
Two front triangle material choices
One rear triangle

Sixteen different products that need to be stocked by the distributor for the one model bike!

I don't even want to discuss what Norco is doing with the Range/Sights

if you looks at norco and kona (i am sure others as well) they use one front triangles for most sizes, cut to different length at the seat mast and top tube/headtube junction to create the different sized bikes on small through large sizes. the problem being for tall (XL and up) riders it creates some weird reach issues.

Just a speculative fiction. No cause for alarm.

Jan. 10, 2015, 6:21 p.m.
Posts: 15019
Joined: April 5, 2007

if you looks at norco and kona (i am sure others as well) they use one front triangles for most sizes, cut to different length at the seat mast and top tube/headtube junction to create the different sized bikes on small through large sizes. the problem being for tall (XL and up) riders it creates some weird reach issues.

I don't understand what you are saying…
Have a look at the Range/Sight/Sight Forma carbon frames and tell me if you notice anything? Hint, it's right above the chainring!

Why slag free swag?:rolleyes:

ummm, as your doctor i recommend against riding with a scaphoid fracture.

Jan. 10, 2015, 6:25 p.m.
Posts: 1045
Joined: May 30, 2004

if you looks at norco and kona (i am sure others as well) they use one front triangles for most sizes, cut to different length at the seat mast and top tube/headtube junction to create the different sized bikes on small through large sizes. the problem being for tall (XL and up) riders it creates some weird reach issues.

No, no they don't.

Jan. 10, 2015, 6:34 p.m.
Posts: 2009
Joined: July 19, 2003

No, no they don't.

on the aluminium frames, yes. carbon. dont know.

Just a speculative fiction. No cause for alarm.

Jan. 10, 2015, 6:40 p.m.
Posts: 1045
Joined: May 30, 2004

on the aluminium frames, yes. carbon. dont know.

They miter the tubes to the appropriate lengths for each frame size then weld them. They DO NOT "use one front triangles for most sizes, cut to different length at the seat mast and top tube/headtube junction to create the different sized bikes on small through large sizes." Whoever told you this spewing garbage.

Jan. 10, 2015, 7:47 p.m.
Posts: 2009
Joined: July 19, 2003

They miter the tubes to the appropriate lengths for each frame size then weld them. They DO NOT "use one front triangles for most sizes, cut to different length at the seat mast and top tube/headtube junction to create the different sized bikes on small through large sizes." Whoever told you this spewing garbage.

what you say makes sense. but the difference is very slight. its the same tube set for a hand full of sizes, cut to different length. who ever told me that may have simplified the process for my simple brain. not to be a name dropper but it was one of those guys who in charge of the production of these bikes. I can't off the top of my head remember which one, tallish, late 30's early 40's, balding, rides a bike, you know, they are all sort of the same.

Just a speculative fiction. No cause for alarm.

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