EDITORIAL
Size-Specific Water Bottle & Accessory Mounting Points
Move Your Zits
The really tall mountain bikers in my life are insufferable. Insufferable. Let's just take bicycle frame sizing as an example. This stack height is too low, this effective seat angle is too slack, these chainstays are too short, this reach dimensions is too compact, this seat tube is too long or too short. You know, depending on if they want to run a 150mm or 240mm dropper post. And I try to empathize, really I do, but all those changes have something in common, in that they cost money. More frame material, custom forgings or drawing different tube sets for aluminum, new moulds and more layup time for anything carbon fibre. And all that for frame sizes that are going to sell a lot fewer units than what median-height folks are riding.
Can you imagine the ruckus if brands started charging more for the gigantic sizes of the same bikes to cover those costs? Meanwhile, as it stands now, all of us average-ish height folks are getting overcharged to either subsidize or cover the spread of folks at the statistically insignificant XXL end of the bell curve. Do you hear us complaining? No, we're stoically shifting all our crap around to dig out our step ladders to change light bulbs and paying the same amount for less material in significantly higher unit production frames.
That said, I was thinking the other day that one thing tall folks, even not that tall folks, should get ruffled about is the one-size-fits-all solution that most bike companies take to mounting water bottles or accessories. There is a heck of a lot of extra room inside a big frame compared to squeezing one bottle into a small one. And yeah, you're thinking "No Shit, Andrew" but hang on a second. Adding water bottle bosses at production time costs basically nothing. If a front triangle can fit two bottles and a shock then I think it should get bosses for two water bottle mounts optimized for that size of bike, not a single set with the position optimized for the small frame.
To be clear, I own a Marin, which is why my bike is in the photos, but this applies to most every brand on the market. And sure, I couldn't fit two standard bottles inside my size-large Rift Zone anyway.
But, I could certainly fit a standard bottle, possibly a large bottle, and my tool kit or even a small Fidlock bottle as a bonus. My kid's bottle would add +450ml to my on-bike water carrying
I know folks who've added their own rivetted bosses to aluminum frames. Actually, WZRD Em just added a pile to the steel frame and fork I use as a commuter so I could hard mount racks and fenders. For a more temporary but still solid option there's always good two-sided taped, zip-ties, P-clamps, hose-clamps, and, of course, SKS Anywhere mounts. But for the added costs or faffing, not to mention the less-clean looks, the ideal solution is for companies to be more thoughtful when adding zits in the first place.
That's not to suggest that making a decision on what full suspension, or hardtail, bike you buy should come down to the number of water bottle mounting locations it has, not at all. Even if you're never going to bolt anything onto said bosses, size specific mounting points demonstrate a next-level of thought went into the bicycle while at the same time being a much less expensive than any of the other size-specific frame considerations I suggested in the opening.
After attempting to mock things up a number of ways, I finally resorted to asking the nerds at Wolf Tooth if I could try a couple of their B-Rad bases and that's made the project fun. My Rift Zone doesn't quite fit two bottles but I think from my photos it's easy to picture how an XL would handle them both without issue. That's not to mention other frames with even more space. My hardtail already fits two bottles on the downtube with plenty of room to spare, but given it's a medium-large sized frame it does make all the hardtails with one set of bosses seem a bit silly.
I've been playing with this idea a few different ways but I think using Wolf Tooth's B-Rad bases is a solid way to visualize the concept.
The B-Rad base bolts into the existing bosses to relocate or add mounting points. The B-Rad 4 (34 CAD | 25 USD) is what I used for two bottle cages.
Even with an inline shock, belly bump, and this being a large frame there isn't quite enough room inside my Rift Zone for two bottles.
That's even with the added adjustability of the Ti Morse cage. I bought these ages ago when King Cage was making them for Wolf Tooth. Now they're made inhouse in Minnesota.
Accessory Mounting
I'm a bit weird in that I usually ride with a pack but I carry my water and tools, except my mini-pump, on my bike except for more epic adventures. My pack has food, gloves, spare clothes, first aid, a light, my phone within easy reach, and often my camera. And I keep my pump in my back after killing one too many hanging on my bike. With the exception of the setup on my single speed, I carry my tools in a weather proof roll-up pouch that I can easily transfer from bike to bike. It straps on to most bikes okay but it mounts up much more securely to a hard-mounted accessory mount.
There are an endless number of options in this category. I've been using a 0.6L B-Rad bag, and included mount, since 2019 and then last year started using the new TekLite version of the same which uses thinner, more flexible material. The included plate has slots to mount a pump off the side if that's your thing but I just use it to securely fix my tool kit. For those that wouldn't carry a little frame bag there are still plenty of reasons to consider additional accessory mounts. The folks at Jank Components make a sweet inline pump mount for a OneUp pump, Pivot's Dock Ninja multi-tool looks neat, or a spot that almost fits a bottle there are some bottle-esque tool storage solutions like this one from Birzman. There are a plethora of options with more arriving every day. For example, it's easy to imagine Lezyne making a hardcase for their T-Drive tools that would bolt on to accessory mounts if more frames had them.
I usually mount a roll-up bag with tools, but a strap and a firm base is great for carrying a spare tube and inflation tools. I can also strap a folding saw in here without the bottle. Still playing with that configuration. An under top-tube mount would be perfect.
With the B-RAD 4 I can fit a 1L bag, but with this B-RAD 3 I'm limited to the 0.6L. It's a big difference as with the 1L I can easily add the Emotional Support Jacket, pump, spare gloves, and space-blanket out of my pack. I like my current mix though, so 0.6L is usually my go-to.
B-RAD 3 Base (31 CAD | 23 USD) is a good fit for a water bottle and a tool pouch. If I was just buying one base I think I'd get the 4-slot version for the added versatility. It's a huge difference as the 3-slot only has four holes to the 4-slot's nine.
I have mocked it up and there's just enough room, again in my size large frame, to add a small Fidlock bottle to the B-RAD 3 base AND put a couple bosses under the top tube to hold my tool bag.
I've heard some riders poo-pooing the addition of under-the-top tube bosses because they'd never use them, and that's fine. It's a minor additional cost to add more zits to a bike, at least a metal bike, but if most folks don't use them, or wouldn't use them, I can understand not wanting a bunch of extra bolts sticking out. I'm not into the thousands of bosses bike packing aesthetic myself.
Although, I've heard of some creative uses for mounting points from a hard-case banana holder, to a folding Silky Saw, and I'd believe that's only the start. Heck, Cy Whitling could be sure to never leave home without paints again with a clean little frame mounted kit, although a boss-mounted frame bag would also have room for paper. With the increasing number of folks out there with 3D Printers, a passion for mountain biking, and more imagination than yours truly, I'm certain with mass adoption, it would only be a matter of time before a bunch of cool mountable ideas came to fruition.
Even with the heavily sloped top tube and bent seat tube, the large Chameleon MX could easily fit two bottles on the down tube. Maybe a pair of bosses under the top tube to mount my tool kit as well? I like the lack of bosses on the seat tube as they can interfere with dropper post insertion.
Would the large Titan have fit two bottles inside the front triangle? Maybe not, but a second pair of bosses on top of the downtube or on the bottom of the top tube would be nice for accessory mounting, like my tool bag. An XL probably has just enough space. Photo: Deniz Merdano
Dreaming up uses for extra bosses aside, I'll go back to what was interesting about having the visual tool of the B-RAD 4 base and two bottles to mock up into frames. I was sure that I was going to just squeak two bottles into my Rift Zone, and I was very much wrong. But as you can see from my shots it wouldn't take a much more open front triangle to make that a reality. An XL, or the XXL I'd love to see Marin making, frame would certainly be no issue and that's true for a lot of mountain bikes on the market.
Do enough people care about running two bottles, or a bottle and a bag, that it's worth the undertaking? I think, yes. I'm sure it's easy enough to draw spatially on a computer but even just grabbing the base I have, mounting two bottles, and mocking it into existing frames is an interesting thought experiment. And, it's a frame update that costs essentially nothing to offer a size-specific detail for riders. It demonstrates a focus on small details, and individual frame systems, even if it's not going as far as size-specific chain stay lengths and seat tube angles. It would be a nifty rebuttal to the really tall mountain bikers in my life when they complain that bikes aren't optimized for them, and who doesn't love chirping their riding friends?
Comments
earle.b
1 year, 9 months ago
Fidlock is missing out not making more variety in bottle sizes.
Put 800ml in the same length as their 590ml. Put 600ml in the same length as their stubby 450ml.
Bikes are constrained for bottle length, not diameter. Make them fatter.
Reply
roil
1 year, 9 months ago
I agree 100% and commented separately about this in the comment section. Check out the YT Thirstmaster 5000.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
100% agreed. Fidlock could do so much with their system from just 10-15% more girth to creative shapes for some of the most common frames.
That said, the system is excellent. It was the only way to get a bottle on Claire’s last bike (that she could remove herself) and while I may have grumbled at the price at the time the user experience paid for itself on the first ride.
I should probably get a bigger one for her Marin (and steal hers for my sag wagon)
Reply
hongeorge
1 year, 9 months ago
This crazy thing from Canyon is a neat way to do it
https://www.canyon.com/en-gb/gear/accessories/bike-accessories/bottles-and-bottlescages/canyon-eject-hydration-system/166965.html
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
That is a neat-looking solution, although a single wider FidLock bottle could probably contain the same amount of water in a narrower footprint?
The Canyon system would either be unnoticeable (which would be a win) or you'd contact it occasionally during body-English situations and that would drive me insane. It also either holds bottles just fine in janky situations or it's an ejection system in the worst moments (In my experience their standard plastic cages are shite in this regard).
Still, keeping an open mind. It's cool to see companies investing brain power into solutions.
Reply
roil
1 year, 9 months ago
2.5" diameter bottles are a waste of space! We need to move up to 3.5" (Nalgene ATB bottle) or even better would be more bike specific options like the YT Thirstmaster 5000.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
I really, really, like how a standard bottle is hugged passionately by my King Cages. I've had a bottle fall out in over twenty years. But, your point is well taken that rather than a second bottle I could play with larger options.
Reply
Vik Banerjee
1 year, 9 months ago
There are 1L Nalgene bottle cages. I don't mind stopping and opening a lid to get a drink. A 1L Nalgene is shorter than a standard 750ml bike bottle.
Reply
roil
1 year, 9 months ago
There are no side load cages for 3.5" bottles to my knowledge! If you know of one, please share.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Meant to mention that but all cages are created equally. Even with the bottles as close as in my photo it’s no issue to remove/install them from/in a King Cage. I experienced very few bikes where side loaders were beneficial and the Fidlock is the winner. As someone else noted, Fidlock needs to make more sizes.
Reply
Harris
1 year, 9 months ago
I'd happily buy a larger size fidlock!
Tall rider of an Raaw Jibb in size XL which has a good amount of space in side the frame, and secondary bosses under the toptube for a tool roll. I use that same .6l wolftooth roll and mounting plate, and it's great. I've got a proper tire pump, tube, plugs, and essential tools including chain breaker in it. It's a little inconvenient to get things out of, but I so rarely need anything these days that I'm not bothered. I find that it's pretty perfect for most 2 hour rides with a single 26oz bottle, but there are those days where a bit more water would be great.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
I definitely only put ‘sometimes tools’ in the bag. As in, it’s a repair not an adjustment.
Old Fart Andy (OFA) brought up carrying a filter to supplement his bottle and that’s something I should look into.
Kelownakona
1 year, 9 months ago
I've had a couple of bikes where sideloaders were necessary not even beneficial. But who cares.
Just wanted to say I loved the opening to your editorial Andrew. Very entertaining and nicely written.
Reply
Endurimil
1 year, 9 months ago
Found this company recently that has their ideas for solutions. Even has a system that allows one to use 1L or bigger Nalgene bottles.
https://originalfreerange.com/collections/hydration/products/handlebar-hydration-system
Reply
Velocipedestrian
1 year, 9 months ago
"even better would be more bike specific options like the YT Thirstmaster 5000".
Chris Porter, is that you?
Reply
roil
1 year, 9 months ago
I do aspire to own a Geometron!
Reply
Vik Banerjee
1 year, 9 months ago
I definitely screen out bikes for the lack of two water bottle mounting options plus a tool bag. I'm okay with DIYing the second bottle if there is a good spot for it. Most of the year I can happily get by with 1 bottle and tool bag so the DIY setup is only for a couple months of the year. I do give frames with hard mounts for the extra bottle bonus points when making a purchase decision so I would reward companies that look after me like that.
I think the WT Rad bases are cool and have few here for quick setup of bikes as needed.
They do make a double bottle mount that puts two bottles side by side for smaller frames, getting around a shock reservoir or absolutely desert zombie apocalypse setups.
https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/collections/b-rad-system/products/b-rad-double-bottle-cage-adapter
And an offset mount if you need to get around some restriction like a shock reservoir with a single bottle.
https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/collections/b-rad-system/products/b-rad-bottle-shift
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
The next min-max bike piece has a shorter travel bike that came OE with a reservoir shock (for the aesthetic more than anything, I'm sure) and I'll revisit this a bit there. Even shifting the bottle a bit to make room to strap a bag can be a valuable addition of space, though I originally came at this from the perspective of more water.
I can't do the under-the-down-tube bottle on local trails. I've tried it, and know lots of people who've tried it. Never mind how gross the bottle gets (definitely want a covered nipple) there's just too much contact with square roll-ins and crashing on jank.
I've yet to see anyone using a side-by-side solution on a mountain bike. My gut says that it wouldn't work for me just in terms of body English but I'd have to mock something up to be sure. Next project maybe. The B-Rad Bases work great and were a fantastic visual tool for me. I'm still running the 3 on my Rifty as I much prefer mounting my tool bag rather than just strapping it.
Reply
Vik Banerjee
1 year, 9 months ago
I only use the 2nd bottle under the DT on the hottest summer days. So it only gets dusty. I drink the upper "clean bottle" first. Then I touch the dirty bottle once, take off the lid and pour the contents into the clean bottle. That minimizes any "dirty" issues. In wet conditions when the lower bottle would actually get filthy I don't need a 2nd bottle.
If something touches my 2nd bottle [rock/log] I'd crash because it would smash my DT next well above my cranks. I've ridden that setup for years with no issues despites lots of rocks/logs to get over.
I get lots of folks asking me if I am hitting that TT "straddle" bag [top photo] on my bike because the just assume that wouldn't work. Obviously body shapes vary so I can only speak for myself, but I ride the steepest/hardest trails that I can cope with and it never gets in the way. I think I could do the double bottle setup, but I prefer the under the DT for the 2nd bottle if that's available. I'd probably put more water in soft bottles in the straddle back after that.
Every bike is different so I have a few cages/bottles/bags in a bin and I just try out all the combos on a new bike. Sometimes it's a matter of a few millimeters in terms of what works and what doesn't. Although I wouldn't buy a bike I could roughly see how I would get two bottles + tools on it in a satisfactory way. There are enough bike options it's never that slim pickings I would need to compromise.
Reply
taprider
1 year, 9 months ago
I would rather have a classic slightly sloping top tube rather than the current 1970s mixte-style sloped top tube that is all the rage with the Bros, not only because I like the classic looks better, but it allows for a bigger main triangle frame bag and if you use a seat bag you won't be using an extra long dropper anyway
Reply
Andy Eunson
1 year, 9 months ago
Yeah, but that low top tube lets a person ride in a skirt easily. And unless that seat tube is strong, long droppers might break them. Low is good to a point.
Reply
taprider
1 year, 9 months ago
what is holding your lower bottle on in the Hot Cherry photo?
Reply
Vik Banerjee
1 year, 9 months ago
It's a Fabric cageless bottle. I've had great results with them in a bunch of applications. I really like it on my FS bike as I can use the bottle or leave it at home without dealing with the empty cage in the later case. They fit in certain tight frames where I can't get anything else to work.
https://fabric.cc/products/hydration/cageless-bottle-600ml/
Reply
Larrabee
1 year, 9 months ago
Strategically-placed water coolers along the trails FTW.
Refilled by government employees rappelling down from $30 million twin-turbine helicopters.
Water bottle bosses (barnacles) B-Gon.
Done and done.
Those who don’t like using the refill stations will be issued a tax refund (each user-drinker will have to scan the bar code on hem’s “hydration card”).
No way will non-thirsty shredders be subsidizing parched grinders.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Hahahaha. Reminds me of all the e-bike charging plus showing up on trail sign posts.
Reply
Andy Eunson
1 year, 9 months ago
I’ve done 5 hour rides with one standard bottle and an MSR Trailshot filter. If you have ponds nd streams to draw from, that’s a good way to go. Bum bags are to a certain extent, a fashion statement. Or people are willing to put up with the cons of a heavy bum bag as having a pack is worse for them. Nothing wrong with having a choice. I’ve tried a bunch and no way can I carry much weight in them. I have a couple that I use but never with water or much else. Tubes and pump, food, phone, spare bolts and other bits and maybe a jacket. But I rode a pretty fresh trail last night. Two hours out. Parts of the trail are quite rocky and rough on a hardtail with 2.5 tires. My neck was stiff so I’m gonna experiment with a bum bag again and see if there is a difference. Being hot on that ride I had a fair bit of water in my Chase Protection pack.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Yes. I carry tablets but have been thinking of adding a filter to my pack since they weigh almost nothing and most places I ride have water year round.
Reply
Andy Eunson
1 year, 9 months ago
Do it. With our water sources you’ll never run out.
Reply
Endurimil
1 year, 9 months ago
Always carry one of those Lifestraw filters now.
Reply
Andy Eunson
1 year, 9 months ago
The other advantage to drawing from a stream, which I did twice on tonight’s 2 hour and 15 minute outing is that the water is nice and cold. Unlike carrying two bottles which would be warm and icky.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
That's an under-reported advantage for sure. My second water bottle is gross these days.
Reply
Endurimil
1 year, 9 months ago
Andy, the pain and such issues is a valid point in figuring out how to carry water and such. Myself was advised by medical side to figure out ways to carry more stuff on the bike as a way to decrease the effects on the long term injuries. Had just started but on hold while heal from surgery.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
I know for a fair few people who ditched packs (back and hip) for carrying water on their frames it came down to managing back or other pain. Water weighs a lot, especially carrying enough for a hot day. Filters make all the sense, as long as there are good sources of water on your ride.
Reply
Cr4w
1 year, 9 months ago
As an XXL person whose bike's suspension precludes a standard water bottle mount but who has no issue running a hydration pack I say fight the power anyway! But given how crazy people are right now to strap as much stuff as they can to their frames I'm surprised manufacturers haven't jumped on this easy and unobtrusive way to really help people out.
My gravel bike has a standard water bottle placement on the down tube and one under the down tube (which isn't useful for much) and one on the seat tube. There's more than enough room for a second set on the down tube and one under the top tube to hold my tool wrap and I lament their absence often. When I ordered this bike I still thought of my nascent roadie gravel self in a more seatpack/long-frame-pump old school way. How far we've come.
Reply
fartymarty
1 year, 9 months ago
Cr4w, speak to Jim at https://www.cyclesolvers.co.uk/. He knocked up a sweet little bracket for my Murmur. I'm sure he could do one for the G1
Reply
Cr4w
1 year, 9 months ago
Those look like pretty good solutions. There is remarkably little space in the G1 front triangle in front of the shock mount. Pretty sure AJ managed it but that's not a lot of water and still leaves me to figure out all the other stuff.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Yeah, even with a standard bottle there are still days/rides where it's hydration pack time. My kid will often drink 2x her FidLock bottle on a big ride, so I end up carrying extra there too.
It's so neat the sort of solution that folks are 3D printing these days.
Reply
fartymarty
1 year, 9 months ago
Big rides it's a backpack with bladder and a bottle. Water in the hip pack doesn't work for me. Anything 3 hrs and less (and not silly hot) I can get away with a big bottle given I'm well hydrated before I start (usually down a big bottle just before going out).
I've been riding with a backpack recently and once you're used to it it's fine. Plus you can carry everything you possibly need (and first aid kit).
Reply
Cr4w
1 year, 9 months ago
I never stopped riding with a pack. I don't like having all that stuff strapped to my bike. My pack is awesome. It's super light, stays put, easily holds as much or as little stuff and water as I need and is super comfortable. Though my attitude will change when I get some ride-flat inserts and stop carrying a pump and tube. I just learned that my Tannus tubeless are not ride-flat-able. Burlier inserts (like the heaviest Octamousse) and an EDC for a tool and plugs and a minimal hip pack for bottle and phone+keys would work well for most <2hr rides around here.
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Ugh, yeah, that’s where most the lighter-weight inserts let you down.
Whereas I’ve ridden home, uphill, a long distance from beers with a fully flat front tire on my CushCore. Worth every gram.
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
I was thinking a lot about hydration packs yesterday. There were piles of folks headed up Fromme wearing hydration hip-packs which absolutely do not work for me, but clearly, offer a superior experience to a lot of folks over a backpack?
I mean, I get hip-packs to carry a small collection of stuff and skip the super-sweaty back experience but even the best ones feel too heavy / too full pretty quick when you start loading them up.
I have a bladder for my pack and I'll use it for longer rides on the Rifty where one bottle isn't enough. Or sometimes if I don't feel like swapping it in I just throw a second bottle in my pack. I don't mind as I wear a pack all the time anyway, but I do prefer hydrating out of bottles.
Anyway, I recognize that there's a flip side to my thinking about more mounting points which is many folks are perfectly happy just rocking the hydration hip-pack. And, as uncool as we are, I still see many people wearing packs (I assume most of them have water in them even though I don't). But, adding bosses is so inexpensive at the time of manufacture I think why not just do it?
Your gravel bike is a great example. What would a couple or few extra sets of bosses have cost you at the time of manufacturer? What would it cost to get Dekerf to add them now? May still be worth it. It certainly was for me with Em updating my V1 with rack and fender mounts vs. using other more temporary mounting solutions.
Reply
Shoreboy
1 year, 9 months ago
I've never been able to get on board with the idea of strapping everything I need to my bike in order to ride. I am one of the 'uncool' who rides with a pack every time. Most of my rides are of the longer variety, so I would not have enough water in two bottles to make it work (even if I wanted to weigh my bike down with the extra 3-4+lbs). Once you factor in all the other stuff (tools, food, extra clothing, armor, med kit) the pack is the only solution. I understand people like the 'freedom' of not having to wear a pack, but I feel uncomfortable not having it there on my back. Almost like the feeling you get of not having a seatbelt on when you are driving a car. It just doesn't feel right to me. The ONLY time I will even think of carrying a bottle is if I need some extra hydration in the form of a sports drink to keep my electrolytes in check. Different strokes is the message I think.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Certainly, to-each-their-own is the name of the game. I almost always ride with a pack but prefer water management on my frame - although for big rides I carry a bladder. I have a back protector in my pack when I don't have a bladder, so I'm buying what you're selling there.
Tools are interesting. I have different rigs with different needs so rather than pack/re-pack I have a tool kit that straps on some bikes and other solutions for other bikes with the common tools (pump, zip-ties) in my pack.
But, I also have a bunch of friends who don't ride with packs anymore, not even hip-packs, and it occurs to me that either way (you, me, them) adding more Zits or better positioned Zits - frame size-specific Zits - isn't hurting anyone and could be a nice differentiator for some folks.
Reply
Jake Smith
1 year, 9 months ago
I've been very anti-backpack for most of my time on a MTB. In my early days on a hardtail it was easy to carry everything I "needed" for a long ride on the bike, that being 2x 26oz water bottles, a tube taped to the main triangle bb junction, and multitool and patch kit in a small saddle bag (no dropper post at the time), maybe a couple of granola bars in my packets, when I needed to carry anything else I begrudgingly used a kinda mediocre Camelback daypack.
Now I always carry some additional gear like a first aid kit, packable jacket, knee pads, analog tire gauge, bear spray, and more snacks so a hip pack makes a lot of sense, but if I put the hydration reservoir in it, it gets a bit cumbersome and unstable, and never seems to sit right on my skinny hips. I recently retired that 15 year old Camelback and treated myself to a Mystery Ranch Scree 32 pack, with adjustable size, internal frame, and well padded hip straps, all features that were lacking on my old pack, and whaddayaknow, now I don't mind wearing a pack. My back certainly gets sweatier than the hip pack, but my hydration reservoir is larger and more stable, I can carry camera gear, everything in my normal kit with room to spare, and I'm even able to strap a shovel or rogue hoe to it without much fuss, and its more stable and comfortable than my hip pack. I've never really considered shelling out for a nicer daypack since I felt they were better suited for hiking, which I was fine using a pack without as much features or refinement given how infrequently I go hiking.
I will also admit my silly hypocrisy of me being averse to using a pack for actual mountain biking despite the hundreds of miles of silly street hits, wheelies, townie xc trails, and rushed commuting I did in college while wearing a completely unsupportive "casual" laptop backpack (didn't even have a hip strap).
Reply
Vik Banerjee
1 year, 9 months ago
There is some fashion-ista-ism going on with fanny packs. I like fanny packs for light loads or temporary heavier loads such as 1L soft bottle I'll drink on a really hot day on the climb then basically have any empty fanny pack for the rest of the ride. If you put 2-3L of water + tools in a fanny that makes less sense to me than strapping a small sweaty monkey up on my back in a high CG position by going the hydro pack route.
Of course I'd rather do none of the above and keep my stuff on my bike for a higher performance ride.
Reply
Cr4w
1 year, 9 months ago
I experimented with hip packs and found that I hate the giant buckle exactly where you are folding at the waist. Until I got an EVOC race that has a wide overlapping velcro closure that's amazing. But even with that I dislike using it fully full. These don't work well fully loaded - if I'm going on a longer ride I bring my pack.
Reply
Andy Eunson
1 year, 9 months ago
I had a bizarre endo a few years back when I dropped into a steep slope and the back of the saddle clipped the bum bag buckle open, which went into my front wheel and over I went. Broke a finger.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
WHA?!?!?
I've never heard of such an event. But, I mean, I can totally see how it would happen, I think, maybe?!?
I wonder if it's a unique event in the multiverse or if I could dredge up a similar story.
Reply
Andy Eunson
1 year, 9 months ago
I’m probably the only person this ever happed to. The buckle on my High Above bag has a habit of having only one side clicking in place. Probably makes it more likely to be flicked off accidentally. But totally bizarre accident.
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Injury by bag! I have seen a few folks get straight up pulled off their bikes - one at a proper clip - because they ducked under a brand and hooked their backpack so I believe this stuff is all more common than we'd guess.
Sethsg
1 year, 9 months ago
Agreed.
I have an Evoc camera hip pack, the only problem is I find I have to slow way down when riding and cannot do any jumping because it will slightly bounce up and down on my back. And having 4-6kg of weight bouncing and shifting around on your body is not helpful.
The main strap also seems like it was designed for a fat person, I have to pretty much tighten the straps for it to fit properly.
Reply
Morgan Heater
1 year, 9 months ago
I actually timed myself riding with a mannypack vs a backpack with the same stuff in it, and I was significantly faster uphill with a fannypack. I don't know if I'm just overly sensitive to how quick I can dump heat, but I was pretty shocked at how much more comfortable I felt.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Interesting. Hot day? Cool day? Multiple days of comparison?
It’s lovely riding without any pack, but sweaty or otherwise I wouldn’t guess the no pack, hip-pack, back-pack would noticeably affect my riding times.
Reply
Morgan Heater
1 year, 9 months ago
Both hot days and cool days, but no really cold days. For me personally, obviously may not apply to other folks, but it was over 10%. Its probably placebo, but that doesn't make it any less real.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
It's interesting regardless of whether it's something that works just for you or would work more universally.
I have a couple of friends who've switched back to pack because they found, no matter what bag they used, that hip packs with any amount of stuff in them made riding less comfortable (and made them slower).
Timer
1 year, 9 months ago
What i'm always wondering about the people who strap tons of stuff to their bikes: Do they only ever ride one bike? Do they switch their stuff around before each ride? Or did they buy all that stuff in duplicate/triplicate/quadruplicate?
I switch between bikes, depending on terrain and riding group, so the only things that get strapped to the bike are wheelsize specific spare tubes.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
I can speak for myself. With test rigs, personal bikes, etc I have a pump and a small multi-tool (adjustments only) in my backpack and then I switch my bag of 'Sometimes Tools' from bike to bike. I couldn't justify having multiple copies of those tools but I insist on having the right stuff to fix most issues on the trail. Doesn't even take a minute to swap it bike to bike.
The exception is my single speed, which is the only bike I have onboarded stash tools on. Although I've stealthed them so you wouldn't know they're there to look at them. I can't think of the last time I actually needed to fix or adjust anything on my single speed on the trail (probably straightening my stem after a crash), it's just such a simple setup, but I've used those tools to help out other folks so I like carrying them.
Reply
Zombo
1 year, 9 months ago
I'd love to see more in-frame storage like the SWAT box that now comes with a 20oz soft bladder. It wasn't the only reason I picked the Stumpy Evo over the Sentinel but it certainly factored in. I was pretty set on the Sentinel until I actually demoed one at Galby. It was a little clapped out, so maybe my impressions were wrong but the bike seemed like a great climber, great on flow/jump trails and not so great in the chunk. The Evo's rear suspension platform is far superior for me and my style of riding.
Reply
Onawalk
1 year, 9 months ago
Oh my,
Owned both, and I’m surprised about the impressionthat you got of that Sentinel.
My Sentinel is way more confident monster trucking through jank and chunder than my Evo. Even the V1 Sentinel was better. Found the Stumpy to be the better climber (better traction from the active rear), trail bike, where both versions of the Sentinel were adequate, but could handle bike park days on end.
Different horses they say
Reply
Zombo
1 year, 9 months ago
It could be that the demo bike I rode just needed a suspension service and that led to my bad impression. It definitely wasn't in the best condition. Derailleur was misaligned and the front brake badly needed a bleed. Luckily most trails at Galby don't require a lot of front brake lol.
Reply
Pete Roggeman
1 year, 9 months ago
Yeah, something doesn't sound right there. My Sentinel is the most capable trail bike in rough stuff I've ever ridden. Bigger bikes are even better but at 150mm the Sentinel is hard to beat. Bummer that your demo was roached, that's not exactly conducive to a good representation of a bike's qualities.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Sounds like the bike was a lot clapped out, and that sucks. I’ve seen too many demo fleet bikes with roached suspension, brakes not working properly, etc and it does raise the question of what’s the point.
Sentinel is a rad bike. Really too bad about not getting to experience it as such.
Reply
DanL
1 year, 9 months ago
Great article and lovely photos. The B-Rad setup, soft tool roll + Jank Components pump holder have been excellent in organising my on bike storage, a little easier due to no rear shock getting in the way, haha. For the added OCD, the Jank Components cable tidies score highly as well!
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Thanks, Dan, the big organizing factor for me is that with a couple of bases it's very easy to move my tools from one bike to another. Only my single speed has any onboarded/stash tools so for test rigs and my own bikes the TekLite bag is an obvious indicator of whether I've remembered my 'sometimes tools' or not.
The guys at Jank seem really nice and are doing some cool stuff.
Reply
Ryan Walters
1 year, 9 months ago
Spesh is putting SWAT doors on both carbon and alloy bikes now. Not patented either.
Just sayin…
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Certainly, as with my comment about hydration hip-packs above, I understand that different stuff works for different people. Brand aside, I'm not into the in-frame storage for a few reasons.
For one, I'd personally rather have a regular-looking tubeset and more external mounting points than the e-bike battery aesthetic on everything.
None of these systems, at least combined with internal cable routing, are very weatherproof and I've pulled all sorts of gross stuff out of customer frames working on bikes. I've also pulled out a soft bottle full of water that a rider had forgotten, which was sort of funny - out of sight out of mind I suppose.
The space is also quite restrictive in terms of what you can carry.
Still, if it works for you that's excellent but even then, why not have both? plenty of room for more mounts on internal-storage-equipped frames.
Reply
Ryan Walters
1 year, 9 months ago
Like you said, different strokes!
In-frame storage is one of those things you don’t realize how much you love it until you have it. You have all that volume, might as well put it to use! And my stuff suffers far less in the SWAT box than strapped to the frame. And once I was able to ditch a pack, I can’t imagine going back. The thought of hanging bags or tools from my bike at this point makes me nauseous! 😄
Reply
Konda
1 year, 9 months ago
Long time reader, first time poster... Just a quick question about bottle sizes.
I'm based in the UK, so not sure if it's an area thing but all of the bottles shown above, and the goal of mounting bottles seems to be based around small bottles. Are they a standard size that is the only size available? Surely a 1L bottle will fit where two small (600ml? Sorry, I don't speak Floz) won't?
A larger frame will take a larger bottle. Size specific perks right there...
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
It’s a very valid point and I have owned larger bottles. I really like how regular sized bottles fit in my cages but I can put a larger bottle In the Rifty if needs be and have one somewhere (I’ll dig it up and add a photo).
Going back to some other comments, Fidlock needs to do some more sizes - especially with more girth - since they don’t have to correspond to standard cage sizing.
Reply
Jake Smith
1 year, 9 months ago
I'm a big fan of what Wolftooth is doing. On my big squishy bike I run the B-Rad bottle shift and a Fidlock bottle, while I don't run a shock with a piggy back and still would have clearance for a 22 oz bottle and classic bottle cage without it, the B-Rad makes for easier access to both the bottle and the pump. On my fatbike/hardtail I run the 2 slot so that I can shift my bottle down the downtube to get as close to the seattube as possible and allow more clearance for a non-custom frame bag, clearance is still a bit tight between the nipple of the bottle and the bag, so I may try out the Double Bottle adapter. The only gripe I have is the use of t25 torx fasteners, despite being a big fan of Torx bits in most other applications, a low profile hex drive head would be preferred so that a ball end hex driver could be used, it's the kind thing where you really don't need to be accessing the fasteners often but if you don't have the ideally sized/shaped t-25 tool it can be a pain in the butt, however I do appreciate that Torx is a more durable solution for low-profile screw heads compared to a 4 or 3mm hex.
I think there are certain applications where a King Cage bottle lowering cage would achieve the same result in a lower profile. Or installing some extra m5 rivnuts if you have the tooling, clearance, and confidence. But the B-Rad system is a truly great solution for 95% of mounting quandaries.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Playing with the B-Rad system has been great, I used a screw-driver style t-25 tool with no issue but that’s good feedback that it could be a PIA with some frames.
As with adding bosses after the fact, I’d just like to see more thoughtful, size specific, boss placement from the factory. Let the PM play with the B-Rad mount before production not me after. Or maybe, I’d use the B-Rad to adjust the position anyway as you note!?? Hahahaha. But at least it would be more-optimized stock mounting.
Reply
mikeynets
1 year, 9 months ago
I'm with you 100%. I recently inquired of a local framebuilder to add some bosses to a frame and it was over $300 and that did not include powder coating. I know many custom frame builders that charge ~$50 at the time of ordering — huge delta and I bet the cost of adding them to production frames would be considerably lower.
I don't begrudge custom builders making a living, but that cost just wasn't worth it to me. I'm happy with hose clamps!
And while on the B-rad soap box, I used hose clamps to attach a B-rad plate to the bottom of my downtube and then attached a Bigfoot cargo cage for big day water carry. It all goes away for daily driving.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Presumably a steel frame? Certainly, different materials/processes cost different amounts of money. Em came up with the idea of bluing the metal where bosses were added rather than trying to repaint or touch-up the paint and it turned out fantastically in my book. I love the scars/patina on my bicycles that helps tell their story.
As to cost, my V1 is a bike I'm going to have forever so I was most concerned with getting it right, but I totally understand sticking with anywhere mounts, clamps etc.
I will say that Tubus makes the most amazing rack clampsI have ever used (on steel and Ti) and I always think about them when having clamping/mounting discussions. I think with all the folks hanging stuff off their bikes the potential for brands to make cleaner solutions, and make some money, is certainly there.
Reply
tashi
1 year, 9 months ago
Holy heck that’s a nice P-Clamp, thanks for introducing me to those. 👍🏼
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
They're so great and these particular ones come with a nice story too. I bought them 'online' from a guy named Wayne - since retired - who ran thetouringstore.com (the website now redirects to another site).
I measured everything up with calipers and put in my order for the proper size. I received an e-mail back from Wayne saying to give him a call about shipping options. We ended up having a really nice chat and it's the closest thing to an awesome bike shop experience I've ever had with an online purchase.
Just a genuinely great guy who was very interested in what I was doing with the clamps (pulling my daughter's Burly Trailer-Bike).
Anyways, very highly recommend them. There are the 18-19mm size and I used them with a 19.25mm chainstay. The frame is long gone but I still have them somewhere. I'm not much for collection stuff but I'm still a bit of a sucker for a widget with a story behind it.
mikeynets
1 year, 9 months ago
Yep, steel. And I also was into the idea of not painting it afterwards— but I thought it would need some kind of protection. In any case, the whole process and cost was more than I was willing to undertake. Function over form is my style b
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Bluing/Passiativation is a neat way to finish a steel repair. I can't say how it will hold up over time but I'm really happy with the look thus far. I love how you can see the transition from paint, to clearcoat, to bluing from having the braze-ons added.
You can see in addition to the rack mount I had cable guides added in order to run a rear derailleur (and purchased a dropout that's rear derailleur compatible) as my Waltworks V1 was always intended to only be a single speed but now I'm running it as a 6-speed.
It's been an awesome second life for a bike that I have a lot of awesome off-road memories imbued in. I totally understand and appreciate function v. style. This is a case of amortizing my life and when they put me in the ground it won't really matter how much extra it cost to add some braze-on mounts to a special bicycle. It would very much be a different story if I didn't plan to have this rig forever.
cheapondirt
1 year, 9 months ago
How much weight do we think can safely be attached through a single pair of bosses? I'm probably fine with a bottle, tube, chunky multitool, and pump?
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
That’s going to be frame and material specific. Steel braze-ons are going to take more load than rivets? For example. Still, I’d have no qualms running what you’re running on any mountain bike, so if it’s too much we’d both be over loaded.
Reply
Justin White
1 year, 9 months ago
I've run the B-Rad 3 for an XL bottle and the same Wolf Tooth mount and bag on one set of bosses, it's great. Then I got in-frame storage and never looked back. My next frame will need in-frame, or at least a specific place for the WT bag: bosses for the WT mount, or a strap slot big enough for the WT strap)
Reply
trumpstinyhands
1 year, 9 months ago
You need one of these (a moustache and hang out at an East Van coffee shop) :D
https://www.ebay.com/itm/304456050189?hash=item46e2fea60d:g:NvkAAOSwPxNiYrHh&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5337240127&customid=1&toolid=10049
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Hahaha. I know ‘everything’ causes cancer… but I’m thinking drinking out of that aged receptacle is more of a guarantee than a possibility.
I can probably do the EastVan coffee shop, but I can only grow the worst/best Cop-‘stache you’ve ever seen so I think I’ll pass on the lip pelage.
Reply
Daniel Rahrer
1 year, 9 months ago
On a hardtail, get two pairs of the anywhere mounts from SKS or WT. Experiment with them before sticking them down, angling the lower bottle to the left and the upper bottle to the right (opposite if you want left hand access to upper bottle). The lower nozzle will “overlap” the upper bottle. You’ll be able to get two ~600-650 ml bottles inside the downtube on most medium and larger frames, and a small plus regular bottle inside the downtube on smaller frames. You may also be able to get one on the seatpost on larger frames with an anything mount and it can be offset/angled as well, just watch for calf strike possibilities. My medium gravel bike fits three this way. On a FS get the WT double bottle mounts on a B-rad base and run the cages as low as possible. You may occasionally have inner knee strikes on the cages, depending on what you use, but imho it’s a small price to pay to carry 1.2 litres on the bike. Final tip: if you wear the bibs with pockets on the back, stuff a 500 ml soft bottle with a pop top in the centre pocket. I found that two soft bottles is too much in bib pockets. Bonus tip: freeze the soft bottle for hot rides, warm it for cool rides. That’s 1.7 litres, good for rides up to 3 hours, ymmv.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Interesting idea with the angling of the bottles. This backs up the idea that Fidlock should do some different shapes (wider bottles) since they don't need to fit in standard-sized cages.
It would drive me insane if I was getting any contact with my bottle while riding. Especially when trails call for Body English. But to each their own, especially if you're trying to avoid the hydration pack at all costs.
Reply
araz
1 year, 9 months ago
I know it's deeply uncool, but I have a small saddle bag that works well for me. Attaches directly to the rails, so doesn't touch the dropper post at all, is just big enough to hold a tube, multitool, plug kit and tire lever, and small enough that it doesn't buzz the tire with the seat all the way down (on my setup anyway). Big bottle and pump on the frame, extra water (here in the desert, one bottle doesn't cut it for most rides), phone, snacks, etc. in a hip pack. Backpack for big rides only, when I need a lot of water.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
I used to ride with a saddle bag all the time; if it works for you that’s great.
As a general comment - One thing I do recommend to folks is to drop your saddle and let the air out of your shock just to make sure the tire doesn’t contact the bag at bottom out (seen it plenty of times). Also, as you have done, be sure to not have a strap on the sliding surface as I’ve seen some scratched/work post stanchions.
Reply
araz
1 year, 9 months ago
Ha, yes I did think to check clearance at bottom out. When I switched from a 170 to a 200 dropper I was worried that I'd have to figure out a different system, but there's still a bit of room. I can definitely see that not everyone's setup would have tire clearance for the saddle bag.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Yeah, I just see a fair few bikes where folks didn’t check their saddle vs. tire contact never adding a bag.
Reply
Cy Whitling
1 year, 9 months ago
Oh wow! Now the wheels are turning. Time to build out a fancy bolt on paint kit!
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Hahahaha. If that’s all that comes out of this piece it’s a win in my book!
Been getting a plethora of nice comments on my new headtube badge/decal and I barely have the V2 out these days with not being to ride it on trails yet.
Reply
Spencer Nelson
1 year, 9 months ago
This is a thought experiment I didn't end up following through on... my Lyne components bottle cage angle adapter to allow two verticalish bottles, with the cardboard mockup to plan out making my own frame bag. Or skipping the bag and having a third bottle (XL frame tall person problems! hahahaha)
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Neat! I love my little tool bag (0.6L) but don't really want for anymore on-bike carrying capacity than that usually, but I have some friends who've jumped right in with the custom frame bag setup. Jackets, tools, etc. Lots of ways to do mountain biking.
Reply
Skeen
1 year, 9 months ago
I have been riding with an apidura bladder in a revelate hopper bag on my FS bikes for about 8 months now and it has been awesome. It can carry 1.5L and still have a little room for wallet and keys. Plus as i drink some water more room frees up to pack a layer after i warm up on the beginning of a ride. Previously i was only storing a fidlock bottle and maybe wrapping a windbreaker around the toptube in the same place. I am surprised this setup isn’t being discussed more here or on other threads/ forums since I have found it to be so effective.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
That's a neat setup! I've actually never seen the Apidura bladder before Googling it just now. Any chance you have a Camelbak bladder around? It looks like the interface may be the same in which case the Inline Lifestraw might be compatible for bikepacking trips.
Do you just pull the hose out of your frame bag when it's time to drink or does it clip to your bar? An interesting option maybe for folks that prefer to carry water on their bike but have a hard time drinking out of a bottle vs. their full face.
Reply
Skeen
1 year, 9 months ago
Yes in fact i just checked and a camel bak bladder hose does plug into the apidura bladder (I didn’t fill with water to check seals but felt a firm click. I will report back if I discover otherwise).
I bought a cheap 4 pack of hydration pack hose clips to outfit a few bikes. Velcro strap on the handlebar works great. Or for increased on bike storage antics, i attach the hose clip to a mounting strap on an oveja negra chuckbucket mounted in front of my stem.
I was a hardcore backpack/ camelbak fan for 20+ years but i run hot and sweat too much all year round (live front range CO) so ditching the backpack for on bike storage has been revolutionary for me.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
This is nifty because the LifeStraw setup works really well (in terms of not taking too much effort to drink through the tube - I have to take their word on its germ-killing).
I played around with ditching my pack a lot of different ways (on bike storage, various hip-pack setups) before my daughter started riding. Now the grab-and-go of the pack just works for me. But we only really get hot 1-2 months around here and even then it's not as hot as other places I've ridden. I've done a couple of days in Kamloops, Vegas, and Moab that I swear my water was evaporating out of my bottles faster than I was drinking.
Reply
Skeen
1 year, 9 months ago
Thanks for the tip on the lifestraw setup, i am going to look into this. It would save me some volume and maybe a bit of weight compared to the platypus backpacker filter system I take on long rides. Mainly volume will be the benefit as the platypus takes up about my entire revelate top/seat tube bag space.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Neat! If you do try it let me know how it works for you? Too much stuff on the market to try everything so always curious what works for who when it comes to interesting, less mainstream, stuff like inline filters for frame bag water storage.
mnihiser
1 year, 9 months ago
Nuts on the backside, V2 will be tapped. I've never had any luck posting photos here. I'll try to email one to you.
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
This looks like a great DIY project. Thanks for the photos, Max!
Reply
MTB_THETOWN
1 year, 9 months ago
I'd much rather have a compact frame with space for one bottle, but plenty of clearance and stand over. Being able to move around the bike is key
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
That's why it's presented as a size-specific solution. On an XL bike (almost on my large) there's no sacrifice in fit for the fitment of more bottles/accessories. It's just about moving bosses around / adding bosses within the existing space.
Reply
Sethsg
1 year, 9 months ago
I don't know if anyone has used this bottle cage before but you can fit a full-sized Nalgene in it - BiKase Adjustable Bike Cage
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
That cage is screaming for a BOA adjuster.
Reply
Endurimil
1 year, 9 months ago
Another idea.
https://originalfreerange.com/collections/riding-accessories/products/new-the-original-gripdeck-for-cage-mounts
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
I don't know, that adds another level of bottle removal faff with the strap. BOA would be much faster... though, I think Fidlock would be the way to go for a downtube bottle mount in terms of not having to remove anything if going to a techy ride where the lower bottle would be better left at home.
Fidlock, as many people have noted, just needs to offer more sizes.
Reply
mnihiser
1 year, 9 months ago
Reply
Andrew Major
1 year, 9 months ago
Neat, so you drilled and tapped the flat bar, or did you use nuts on the backside? Photo?
Reply
Please log in to leave a comment.