I checked my SS hardtail that was setup independently and it has a unsagged ~74 deg STA. Not surprisingly just going by feel I ended up at the same place on both bikes.
Door to trail riders - tell me how you've accommodated these crazy steep seat angles please
Posted by: earleb
Need more info. Hardtail or fully? The steep sta on a full suspension bike should put you pretty close to 74 ish at seated sag.
So many variables in play for anyone to just say "steep sta angle, don't like em, not for me."
Which is why I specified the difference in the seat location relative to the BB with the same saddle. I realize the angle as a geo number is fairly useless on its own, combined with a seat post offset however and it can be helpful but most companies don't list offset. I'm not sure how you arrive at your assumption "should put you pretty close to 74 ish at seated sag" though. Here is a simple example comparing a current well fitting bike in my quiver (grey dots) with one I was interested in, both at sag the seat on the new bike (red dots) would be 50mm forward (relative to the BB) at my pedalling height...
Just like previously tall folks had to deal with the saddle being too far back the inverse is true for short folks now, the closer the saddle is to the pedals the more forward the saddle is and steep effective angles with slack actuals are particularly challenging.
Last edited by: geraldooka on May 31, 2022, 8:31 p.m., edited 3 times in total.
Posted by: Kenny
Can echo many here.
My general approach is to avoid such bikes. Tried a few. Disliked them all.
That said a few things can help:
- tipping the seat up a little
- more spacers/higher bar rise
- use your dropper- lower the seat an inch or two when traversing. Obviously not ideal for pedalling but it gives some releif.
I'll definitely try tilting the saddle up a bit more, I have tried raising the bars and that did help but compromised on trail riding in some situations but that may be something I'll have to live with. Funny you mention lowering the dropper that has helped but of course puts me even more forward but I do use that technique on and off. Thanks!
Last edited by: geraldooka on June 1, 2022, 7:50 a.m., edited 2 times in total.
Are those drawings from a bike fit? Very interesting!
Posted by: Endurimil
Some would call it the Think Less Ride More Methodology.
^^
My Knolly tyaughton sta is around 74.5 degrees un-sagged and I do not think I want anything steeper. I do feel a bit of pressure on my hands when riding to the trails, but the geometry feels 'just right ' once I start climbing. Sliding the seat back and raising the bars by 10mm have made things more comfortable too. Interestingly, Knolly slacked off the sta on this bike by a degree or so from prototype to production.
Posted by: mrbrett
Are those drawings from a bike fit? Very interesting!
No, I modelled the bikes in Linkage X3 it has some rudimentary but decent geometry and cockpit measurements. It’s quick and I’ve grown weary of buying bikes figuring out they don’t work and trying to get rid of them just not enough time to deal with that crap so measuring and modelling is just faster and much less annoying.
Posted by: skooks
My Knolly tyaughton sta is around 74.5 degrees un-sagged and I do not think I want anything steeper. I do feel a bit of pressure on my hands when riding to the trails, but the geometry feels 'just right ' once I start climbing. Sliding the seat back and raising the bars by 10mm have made things more comfortable too. Interestingly, Knolly slacked off the sta on this bike by a degree or so from prototype to production.
That makes sense. I pushed it a tad too far on a custom hardtail. At 75.5 with no offset at sag that HT is pushing near 77… or negative saddle to BB not really rideable for me on flattish terrain without a setback dropper unfortunately.
Last edited by: geraldooka on May 31, 2022, 10:35 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
The problem with buying a bike based on geo charts is they lie. It's interesting the number of times folks measure their bikes and don't get what's in the geo chart. I've bought the wrong size frame because the geo chart was off by 25mm once. OTOH if you like wiero niche bikes it's buy based on the geo chart or don't buy at all.
STA is the worst because other than the odd hardtail with a straight seat tube that starts at the BB the numbers presented are all virtual based on some assumption about saddle height that may not apply to you.
I've pretty much resigned myself to just screening out bikes with super steep STAs as being unworkable and for the rest knowing that between a straight dropper, 1" setback dropper and a saddle with longish rails I can probably get the saddle into a rideable zone.
For the ~74 deg actual STAs I measured above those are the angle between the BB and the middle of the saddle rails. So what my butt would feel and independent of any dropper setback or kink in the seat tube.
doesnt matter what bike seat all the way forward and flat or slightly nose high
but everyone is different
On rides to the trail I'll sometimes drop my saddle about 5mm and slide back a bit to take some pressure off my hand
I'm 6'6" and I totally loved steep seat tubes right away. What a relief! Prior to my first proper steep seat angle bike I owned a slew of traditional bikes ending with an Evil Wreckoning, which is what cemented for me just how incredibly myopic and production-efficiency-focused most bike designers are. You'd think they'd met a tall person.
If the rear center of a bike isn't going to get longer on bigger sizes then taller riders will 100% of the time they're at full extension be in a shitty position (unless they have very long femurs). Turns out most companies still haven't figured this out and you can generally see this as most bikes are optimized for someone who's a 170lb medium, and everyone else gets to live with varying degrees of compromise.
For a straight up-straight down FS bike I'm at around 79 and this is good for climbing and descending but for more of a trail bike I think 77-78 would be good.
On my gravel bike I'm on 73 and it's totally fine.
On my progressive hardtail 75-76 turns out to be the good number for me.
I'm so glad that bikes have evolved. I'm also glad there are lots of companies not going quite as extreme as my G1. Lots of people have lots of different needs and that's what these companies should always have recognized. Not everyone should be on dual 29" wheels, wide handlebars, using heavy inserts, or loving very steep seat angles and we shouldn't be selling these stories as universal solutions.
Last edited by: craw on June 1, 2022, 7:58 a.m., edited 2 times in total.
Posted by: Vikb
The problem with buying a bike based on geo charts is they lie. It's interesting the number of times folks measure their bikes and don't get what's in the geo chart. I've bought the wrong size frame because the geo chart was off by 25mm once. OTOH if you like wiero niche bikes it's buy based on the geo chart or don't buy at all.
STA is the worst because other than the odd hardtail with a straight seat tube that starts at the BB the numbers presented are all virtual based on some assumption about saddle height that may not apply to you.
I've pretty much resigned myself to just screening out bikes with super steep STAs as being unworkable and for the rest knowing that between a straight dropper, 1" setback dropper and a saddle with longish rails I can probably get the saddle into a rideable zone.
For the ~74 deg actual STAs I measured above those are the angle between the BB and the middle of the saddle rails. So what my butt would feel and independent of any dropper setback or kink in the seat tube.
Sounds familiar… The Endorphin chart is the only time I have not been able to reconcile the numbers measured the way they draw it on their diagram and how literally every other manufacturer measure it the ETT is NOT 610mm on a medium. I’d definitely not trust their charts, I wonder if they still do that?
Most manufacturers seem to base the seat angle on the intersection of the ETT which is still not super helpful but with those figures and for the rare gems the seat post offset it literally takes a few minutes to mock it up in X3 and figure it out if the chart is not actually in error (cough Knolly)…
Unfortunately most saddles and rails are biased in the other direction, the longest rail saddle I have which I got to help with this issue is the Ergon and they are long but towards the front which ultimately doesn’t actually allow the saddle to be pushed much further back than my fave WTB Pure which has tiny rails.
Posted by: XXX_er
doesnt matter what bike seat all the way forward and flat or slightly nose high
but everyone is different
^This. Bike fit is so personal. Steepish STAs (~76) work for me and I don't recognize OP's issue with them on flat road sections at all but I have long legs.
I actually have my saddle slightly tilted forward (nose down). I have reduced mobility around the hips / lower back / hamstrings and that saddle position is more comfortable for me and helps me keep a good posture.
Posted by: craw
I'm 6'6" and I totally loved steep seat tubes right away. What a relief! Prior to my first proper steep seat angle bike I owned a slew of traditional bikes ending with an Evil Wreckoning, which is what cemented for me just how incredibly myopic and production-efficiency-focused most bike designers are. You'd think they'd met a tall person.
If the rear center of a bike isn't going to get longer on bigger sizes then taller riders will 100% of the time they're at full extension be in a shitty position (unless they have very long femurs). Turns out most companies still haven't figured this out and you can generally see this as most bikes are optimized for someone who's a 170lb medium, and everyone else gets to live with varying degrees of compromise.
For a straight up-straight down FS bike I'm at around 79 and this is good for climbing and descending but for more of a trail bike I think 77-78 would be good.
On my gravel bike I'm on 73 and it's totally fine.
On my progressive hardtail 75-76 turns out to be the good number for me.I'm so glad that bikes have evolved. I'm also glad there are lots of companies not going quite as extreme as my G1. Lots of people have lots of different needs and that's what these companies should always have recognized. Not everyone should be on dual 29" wheels, wide handlebars, using heavy inserts, or loving very steep seat angles and we shouldn't be selling these stories as universal solutions.
I totally get this but I would argue that they haven’t evolved in regards to seat angle just shifted in the opposite direction. Much like variable length chain stays I think true evolution or rather innovation would be understanding that maintaining the same seat angle across sizes is not ideal. Someone with a 36” inseam will have their seat arrive much further back than someone with a 30” inseam. Putting them both on a bike with a 78deg seat angle is not going to be ideal…
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