EDITORIAL
Raising The Bar (For A More Confident Comeback)
Let. It. Roll.
I'm standing at the top of a rock roll I've done a number of times. It's steep, has a few wheelbases worth of rolling, and there's a bit of a ganky entrance. It's a slow crawl-in but I know that all I need to do is nose the front wheel over and hold on. Plenty of runout at the bottom. I'd already done most of the hard work getting to it, although I did walk a couple of features on the trail I 'normally' ride, and I was certain I was going to bag it until I was right over the top and the giant neon sign in my brain started flashing.
COMMIT OR EAT SHIT. COMMIT OR EAT SHIT.
I gave my brakes a quick squeeze, and they were good. I pumped my suspension and, surprise, surprise, the little Cane Creek Inline shock and Manitou's 32mm-stanchioned 'Magic Toothpick' felt just as well balanced as they had for the whole ride. My badly beaten Stamp shoes are glued to the Daemon flat pedals. It was worthy of a deep sigh; there were zero equipment-related excuses to be had.
I pulled over to walk down the side as my friend Penny rolled in and floated to the bottom with perfect brake control. Not enough O's in smooth. It wasn't the most technically difficult feature we'd tackled but it's number two on my list of mental blocks; any steep rock roll more than two bike lengths long. Number one is any log or wood feature where I've had to North Shore-bail off my bike. Can my leg take a single-foot landing from height? My mechanism of injury wasn't even crashing a bike, but there's a simple truth in mountain biking psychology; sometimes the voice in my head is a total prick.
The original build of my Waltworks V2 with a mid-rise SQlab 30X bar and a 1cm headset spacer under the stem. This was the setup in mind when the geometry was worked out and I rode it as such for quite a while.
I regularly experiment with different setups. Here's how it currently sits with a 3" riser bar swapped into place. If there was a V3 in the future I suppose I'd increase the Stack height. Or, maybe not. Plenty of room to experiment here.
My unwanted hiatus began when I ruptured my achilles tendon toward the end of January this year. I'm riding more all the time but I'm still working on building strength and mobility. I suspect it'll be more than a year from the injury date before I'm close to my new normal. Heck, I may never accept that my leg is perfect and use that as a motivator to keep up targeted exercises - and also as the perfect excuse for being slow.
When it comes to removing the mental blocks preventing me from just-letting-it-roll, it's amazing how a couple of centimetres of extra handlebar height have helped. Previously, playing with bar height was mainly a matter of experimenting with my fit, but thanks to the stability of long-ish wheelbases, it's quite possible to feel like I'm standing upright and still load the front and rear tires for traction, whether riding moon dust or greasy rock armouring.
I've raised the bar height on every bike I've been riding, but I started with my Waltworks V2 for a few reasons. It's the bike I'm most familiar with, it has the most balanced front-and-rear centres and is the most stable mountain bike I own. It's the bike where I've struggled the most to get back on the terrain and features I was riding before my injury. And, the absence of suspension makes it the easiest to adjust for body position without having to take other functions into account, like sag and damper settings.
I've been raising the bar on every mountain bike I've been riding, including the budget-friendly, 1100 USD, Marin San Quentin hardtail that I reviewed.
The higher bar makes a bigger difference on a hardtail, which experiences larger geometry changes, and with basic suspension that provides less support.
Rolling The ProTaper Skyscraper
On my Waltworks, I'm back on the 3" (76.4mm) ProTaper riser handlebar, which I previously reviewed. This is an 810 mm wide 7050 aluminum bar which I cut down to 760. I love how this 31.8 mm clamp aluminum handlebar rides - through some combination of the ProTaper shape, materials, and the inherent flex of a bar with huge rise and no cross brace - but I was also motivated by some unfinished business when it comes to setup. That is specifically playing with bar roll.
I'd been looking at pictures of BMX bikes, because I'm a nerd, and I noticed that, while clearly there are no rules, a lot of them had the bars rolled such that they lined up with the head tube angle of the bike. It's not an adjustment you can see from the side profile of a mountain bike with a piddly 25 mm riser but when we're talking about BMX bars in a range between five and ten inches (127mm to 254mm) it's obvious. Rolling a bar this tall forward or backward makes for a huge change in Reach.
76 mm is quite a lot of rise and your fellow riders may give your handlebar some side-eye once you're up there. Just remember that even the coolest all-Troy Lee sporting SCB MegaTower rider is just a big dork on a push-bike to the general public. Yes, even if their bike and kit is sporting the latest Tacoma-matched colourway.
Where I'd previously set the ProTaper's up & backsweep relative to the ground, I've instead rolled the bar backward so those dimensions are more in line with my headtube. It's more extreme than a BMX because my 64° static HTA is about 10° slacker but that was just a starting point and I've not looked back, though I have moved my bar forward with a longer stem. My hand position relative to the steerer tube is very similar to where my mitts end up running my 16° backsweep SQlab 30X bar. My wrist angle is not the same, but I have a half dozen solid rides on this setup, changing only stem lengths, and it's been a boost.
I've run it with a 32, 40, and 50mm stem, and I've settled on the 40, at least for this week. When playing the game of millimetres - up and out, fore and aft - these are big changes. It feels like Chromag is taunting me by adding 38mm and 45mm lengths, in the 31.8mm clamp diameter, with their new RIZA stem.
There's a certain really-big-BMX aesthetic that I enjoy with the 3" riser bar installed. None of my photos do a perfect job of capturing the roll but you can see it here if you look at the fork, head tube, and then the rising section of the bar.
If this wasn't working so well, I'd be chasing down a high-rise bar with more backsweep and then running that rolled similarly to my SQlab setup. There are a couple of options out there for the more-rise and more-sweep curious, though I have not ridden either; the 15° Hunter Smooth Move, made by Nitto in Japan, and the 12° Ergotec Riser are tall options with more than the standard 7-9° sweep.
There is also a plethora of steel options from the budget-friendliest Surly Sunrise or Stooge bars to sweet custom bars from DOOM, WZRD, and Oddity, to name a few. In my experience, once the steel bars are as tall as I want, they need a cross brace, and in turn, they become very stiff. I know a lot of mountain bikers are looking for all the stiffness all the time but I'm feeling the wear & tear trying to ride a rigid mountain bike on the North Shore and, combined with big rubber, the flex of the ProTaper or aluminum 30X are a win.
Despite my lowkey pressure campaign, Chromag still hasn't released a FU50 with a 16° backsweep and I'm no closer to convincing Hayes to offer a bigger sweep for their 76mm riser either. You can help. If there's a bar you love that you'd like to purchase in a bigger sweep then fire the manufacturer a note and let them know. I feel like a lot of folks looking for these taller bars are also open-minded about their hand position and are curious to try different positions that may make mountain biking more comfortable. Also, I'm certain some riders who are on the fence about trying different bar geometry would give a bigger backsweep a try if the steerer stick said 'Chromag' on it and came in a bunch of sweet colours.
I prefer black or silver handlebars so ProTaper has me covered, but for those looking to go taller with some colour there are options out there like Chromag's FU50, Deity's Highline in 50mm or 80mm rise, or Spank's Spoon 800 in 60mm or 75mm rise. A note on the Deity bars is that they are 'only' 760mm wide, which is where I trim the 810mm wide ProTaper.
Different Bikes; Different Results
My Walt is very long, at least for a bike being ridden by someone who stands 5'9". As it sits in these photos, the rear centre is about 465mm and that puts the wheelbase around 1260mm. Even with a 32mm stem and a bar with a pile or backsweep or rolled back as I've done with the ProTaper, there's no shortage of stability. This doesn't translate perfectly to other bikes I've been riding over the same period.
With the smaller wheels and shorter Reach and chainstays of the Marin San Quentin, there was quite a learning curve when it came to climbing technical single track with the high bar. Moving my saddle rearward in the rails and pushing a slightly harder gear ended up helping quite a bit but the real advantages of the higher setup on the budget-friendly hardtail were descending. On steeper sections of the Blue and Purple trails I rode the Marin down, having the higher cockpit combined with the slack-enough 65° HTA was a real confidence boost when the basic suspension fork was deeper in its travel. It's a change I'd make to any budget hardtail I was planning to ride down steeper trails.
My Marin Rift Zone has fairly short chain stays, which measure 425mm, with a long front center thanks to the -2° Wolf Tooth Angleset kicking the HTA out to around 63.5°. I find the optimum bar height window is much smaller. Photo: Mr. Lungtastic
SQlab's 'High Rise' 30X bar claims 45mm of rise but put it against a Chromag FU40 and you'd come to the conclusion that not everyone measures things the same way. It's plenty tall for my 5" travel Rift Zone combined with the stack of the -2° headset.
After playing around with headset spacers, rises, and stem lengths, I ended up back where I'd started on my personal sag wagon. Admittedly I already run my bar higher than most folks I know riding bikes in the 5" travel range, but if my Marin Riftzone had a longer rear center, something in line with the Banshee Phantom's 445mm stays, the experiment would have borne more fruit since it was loading the front tire, both climbing and descending, where the higher bar wasn't appreciated. My little Rifty is a fun bike, set up mulleted or dual 29", that can get me into all kinds of (usually good) trouble but in terms of a confidence boost, I'm going to have to go with the classic 'trust your bike' as opposed to cheating the bar a bit higher.
The other full-suspension bike I've been riding lately is the We Are One Arrival 152. I had the stock bar & stem on this bike set up as high as they could go with the steerer tube cut as it was and the bike still had oodles of stability at high and low speeds. That's with a 1246mm wheelbase and a 437mm rear center combined with 37mm of BB drop. In a long-term review, I would have installed a higher bar and I also would have loved to test the bike over-forked. With luck I may be converting the same test bike to an Arrival 170 and have the opportunity to play around with fit over an extended period.
For my review, I was running the stock bar setup from the We Are One Arrival 152 as high as it would go with the steerer cut as it was. The White spacer on top is just to get the preload cap above the stem.
I feel I could have gone significantly higher with the bar rise without affecting the stability of the bike with its low Stack height and long wheelbase. Hopefully, an experiment to follow up with in the future. Photo: Jac
Unfortunately, playing with handlebar height is a more costly adventure than experimenting with handlebar width. Most folks I know don't want to give up Reach, which means piling more headset spacers under the stem, as I did with the Arrival, isn't the best option. In the grand scheme of being a nerd playing with bicycle setup, aluminum riser bars are fairly inexpensive, even for a high-end option with a lot of rise. For those living in North America, the ProTaper bar I've been riding is on sale at Hayes for around 70 USD | 95 CAD, measures 810mm out of the box, and still rides well cut down.
Also in the unfortunate column, there's no on-size-fits-all solution here. While raising the bar has done wonders for my confidence on my hardtail and I'm certain that going higher on the We Are One would have been all positive, after a half dozen parts swaps, I'm back to where I started on my Rift Zone. While that affirms my Rifty setup, if it hadn't been done using stems and bars I already own, it would have been a disappointing waste of treasure.
If you're in trying to tear down mental walls around steep rolls, raising your bar may be the answer. I'm conquering sections of trail, including the rock roll I watched Penny do, on my Walt with a 3" rise bar and it's translating to more confidence on every bike I'm riding.
Comments
Cr4w
1 year, 6 months ago
> Just remember that even the coolest all-Troy Lee sporting SCB MegaTower rider is just a big dork on a push-bike to the general public.
Hear Hear!
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
Hahahahaha. Too cheeky?
Had a fellow outside the coffee shop tell me the other day that I didn’t look like a mountain biker. Apparently a trashed Merino hoody and some baggy rolled-up MUSA knicks don’t fit the bill?!
Hahahaha. All I could do is smile and say “thank you?”
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Cr4w
1 year, 6 months ago
They are just reminding you that mountain bikers can only be one thing.
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AndrewR
1 year, 6 months ago
Did his Megatower colour match his Tacoma?
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mat8246
1 year, 6 months ago
I’m absolutely sold on more height - on my current 140mm 27.5 bike I’m running my stem at the top of an uncut steerer.
Having read quite a bit about bars with more sweep and thinking there must be something to it, I built my new bike with SQ Lab 30x with 45mm rise. However, after a couple of rides I had to accept they don’t work with my body. I found the extra back sweep created an uncomfortable amount of pressure on the outside of my palms.
If I hold my arms out and ‘sweep’ them outwards I can see that more back sweep would eventually make sense, but the bars would have to be getting seriously wide for that to work for me.
So yeah, glad that I tried it but listen to your body - I guess it’s the kind of thing that if it suits you, you would wonder why the ‘normal’ numbers are 7-9 degrees. But my replacement bars are Chromag FU40 at 8 degrees and they feel better to me.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
It’s certainly not that I think a 12-16* bar is for everyone, or even a majority of folks, I’d just like to see more options.
Is your FU40 uncut? +2cm is a big difference in width and the most common issue I hear with SQ etc is the bars are 780 vs. folks running 800mm+. As you note, maybe an 825mm / 16 would be perfect (other than smoking pinkies).
Cool that you tried it though and know what works for you! That’s my favourite thing about these pieces - it’s about sharing questions not answers.
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Spencer Nelson
1 year, 6 months ago
I agree with your comment about the SQLab bars; I'm a tall rider with broad shoulders, so the angle created by the sweep doesn't really match up with my arms in the 780-810mm bar length range. Definitely noticed the extra pressure on the outside of my palms, tried playing with bar roll a bit, but no dice. For sale soon; 30x 12 degree bars haha
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Vik Banerjee
1 year, 6 months ago
You can get the 3" Ergotec 12 deg bars from Bike 24 for ~25 Euro. There are only a couple in stock at the moment, but I think it's a regularly stocked item. It's a nice bar. I've been riding one for over a year and enjoyed the shape, height and flex.
https://www.bike24.com/p2373711.html
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
I’m almost certain there’s a link to Ergotec bars in there somewheres…
:-)
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Vik Banerjee
1 year, 6 months ago
"I’m almost certain there’s a link to Ergotec bars in there somewheres…"
In the article? Ya I saw the link to the product page. That's great for specs, but you can't buy one there. I posted a link to a vendor where you can actually buy one of those bars for a pretty reasonable cost and get them shipped to Canada. 25 Euro is ~$34CAD which makes trying one out pretty painless. Shipping is ~20 Euro, but can be amortized over a few items so the cost/item remains low.
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Spencer Nelson
1 year, 6 months ago
I wish I knew about those bars on Bike24 a few weeks ago when I was buying my Ice Spiker tires... that 20 Euro shipping hurts a little bit knowing I could've combined items.
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fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
Snap, 70mm Ergotec (sanded and polished) with 20mm of spacers on my Murmur with a 140mm fork and Chromag 31mm stem.
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BadNudes
1 year, 6 months ago
Nice commuter, what kickstand do you use?
(only kidding, love your bike, and respect for letting practicality rule, even if the bags and fenders are a little "theft-deterrent" for my taste ;)
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
Hahahaha hahahaha. So good.
Have to say the folks at Mudhugger have a great sense of humour - especially compared to how sensitive some companies are - and laughed at the whole Theft Deterrence thing.
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fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
Once you've tried* a rear MH you'll be sold - looks be damned. Soggy arses are so overated.
* Andrew - I mean properly tried not just put it on your bike for the piccys :P
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
Hahahaha, I gave it an honest try. It turns out I’m just to sweet to do that to other people.
Rick, King Of The Grom-pas, told me that you can’t see the fender when you’re riding but he was wrong. You see it in the faces of every rider you go by!
LOVE my front Mudhugger though.
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fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
Wade disagrees with you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evfzIl2g1PE&ab_channel=RaceFaceMTB (in my mind Wade is still cool).
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
Wade is “still cool” and a genuinely friendly dude. We can disagree about all sorts of things - ME vs. E~ for starters - but the odd time I bump into him it’s always a nice chat all the same.
P.S. Rick probably told him the same thing… sometimes believing is not seeing.
grcgrc
1 year, 6 months ago
My MHs stay on my Rootdown year round. No good reason to take them off in the PNW (at least most years). You just never know when the rain will show up. Never had anyone say anything to me.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
HAHA. Yeah, it's a bit of an inside joke. MH rear fender work as advertised.
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handsomedan
1 year, 6 months ago
I find the ergo tech bars to be a bit stiff myself. Much prefer sqlab aluminum.
I’ve emailed most companies out there asking for wider, more backsweep and taller options Would love an sqlab 30x aluminum 800mm bar with 60 and 75 rise (using their system of measurement).
Why are the majority of bars made with 8 degrees backsweep? I’d be curious to know what kind of anatomical data the industry is using… My guess is when bars were narrow backsweep didn’t matter. Now that wide bars are an option it does and there’s a paucity in the market for high rise, wide, and >10 degrees of backsweep bars.
These were new to me, but sold out. Nice to see a full 800mm bar for us tall people.
http://stoogecycles.co.uk/product/moto-bar/
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
After playing around with this ProTaper bar - which has a really nice ride quality that I'd say is comparable to the 30X aluminum (notably comparing a higher 3" rise bar to the 'high' 30X) - I'd like to try this 8°/8° Newman handlebar. More than one way to deliver a hand position as it were.
Agreed that if SQ did a taller bar I'd try that as well.
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AndrewR
1 year, 6 months ago
SQ-Lab do a 30X Fabio Wibmer Trials bar 9º back sweep 5º up sweep 84 mm rise. I'm ordering one to give it a go - worst case it can live on my pump track bike (2014 Jackal).
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
I've looked at this bar online a dozen times. Part of me wishes it had more sweep but then I've found with the ProTaper that with bar roll on the tall bar it really doesn't matter as much. I'm normally all in on a 16° bar and I'm in no hurry to remove the ProTaper. In fact it's having quite an influence on my next project for V2.
When it arrives I'd be curious to know how the ride is for you. I have this feeling it's going to be a perfect balance of flex and stiffness.
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skeptatstic
2 months ago
Hey Andrew! How did the 30X Fabio bar treat you? I checked it out on SQL's website, and noticed it's ratd ASTM 3. Whiskey has a new 70 mm rise, 16-degree backsweep bar that's also rated at ASTM 3, so i'm curious how the bar held up, assuming you do drops over 2'.
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AndrewR
2 months ago
Which Andrew? I haven't bought one (SQ-Lab Fabio Wibmer) yet as I was mooching through Bikepacking.com and found out about the Mone Light Bar - so I am in the process of ordering one of them (https://www.monebikes.com/store/light-bar). I cannot really move myself away from the vibration damping and thermal insulating properties that carbon offers.
I have also, despite the adaptability of the human body (see @AM's comment somewhere above), recently discovered that, despite my general lack of kinaesthetic ability, I can actually feel an appreciable difference between 40 mm, 45 mm and 50 mm stems and, just like the story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears, one is too short, one is too long and one (in the middle) is almost perfect.
So going with the other thread of research that the magic is when stem length latchs fork trail I am having a custom 44 mm stem made for my Arrival 140 (and then will probably get another two made in short order after that for my other bikes) as I think the 35 mm bar diameter is b@llsh!t (not helped by a plethora of overly stiff 35 mm bars) and no one currently makes a 31.8 mm x 44 mm stem (0º rise). I am going for old school polished as is goes with everything.
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fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
I would agree that the Ergotecs are a bit stiff cf SQ 30X. I'm now liking the 16 degrees better than 12 which I have been on for a while (and then 16s before that).
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bushtrucker
1 year, 6 months ago
Sounds like High Rise Hunter Smooth Moves could be worth a try. 790mm wide, 75mm rise and 15 back. I have them on my townie that also sees a bit of trail use. And using the low rise version on my hardtail. Great bars!
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fartymarty
1 year, 5 months ago
I would love a 50mm Smooth Move. The shipping is pricey to UK tho.
Edit - scratch that 75mm would be fine after having a Surly Sunrise on my bike.
A SQ16x75 would also be sweet.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 4 months ago
A SQlab 30X with 75mm rise would be sweet. The Hunter bars look great too.
The reason I'm always pushing for Chromag to do an alt-bar is that I feel there are oodles of folks who would love it if they tried a 12-16° bar, but who need it to be cool to try.
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skeptatstic
2 months ago
Has anyone compared the Hunter to a SQlabs 30x bar? Can't find any aerial photos fo the Hunter bars, but when compairng what I can see to the SQ images, it doens't look like many of the bars claiming to have 16 degrees of backsweep match up to the SQ images.
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fartymarty
1 year, 4 months ago
This comment has been removed.
cheapondirt
1 year, 6 months ago
I very recently went from 30mm to 50mm rise bars and while that's not an unusual size, I was expecting obvious pros and cons. My experience on the first ride surprised me with subtlety rather than drama.
Weight balance does not seem to be significantly affected. In an unanticipated two wheel drift, the bike responded exactly how I expected it to. Conventional wisdom dictates it should be easier to lift the front wheel - but that doesn't seem to have changed for me.
My riding posture is naturally a little more upright now. Looking further down trail feels encouraged. I like the way the bike fits better, but don't find it to be revolutionary. At least, not on the blue trail I rode this weekend due to heavy rain. Can't wait to ride some steep stuff.
It feels like there's something different happening with bike-body separation in corners. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what's going on there, because I have recently read/heard arguments from different people that higher bars both hinder separation and encourage it. Let's talk about that!
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fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
Is bike / body separation a good thing? I think it probably is as the bike can move independently underneath the rider.
As for higher bars helping - maybe it allows a better range of motion (like having more sag gives more grip) as the rider isn't as stretched therefore allow more separation.
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cheapondirt
1 year, 6 months ago
Yes, it's a good thing; I'm referring specifically to when you lean the bike more than your body in a corner. On the first street spin after bolting up the new bars, it felt awkward to do that. On trail, I couldn't tell if there was actually any difference.
Thanks by the way, for posting your bike with the polished Ergotec bar some time back. It gave me the push I needed to sand my bars. I ended up going for a brushed look instead of a full polish, but your ride was the inspiration to get started.
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fartymarty
1 year, 5 months ago
No worries on the bars. What are your bars? I'm tempted to polish up my SQ 16s as well.
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fartymarty
1 year, 4 months ago
I've just put my Surly Sunrise bar (83x15) on my Solaris and really like the position. It give you more separation and time to react when the front goes sideways. So far I'm liking and will keep them on.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
The challenge with playing around with bar height (or width, or saddle position, or crank length, or anything really) on my sag wagon is that it’s never just changing one variable because everything I do also affects my relationship with my suspension setup.
You’ve theoretically moved your weight distribution rearward and more perpendicular to the ground if you haven’t lengthened your stem and adjusted your sag at the same time. But, you may also be actively riding more forward on the bike which would then keep your sag % the same?!
Bike body separation is an interesting discussion. I feel more ‘in’ the bike with the higher bar and more upright position but I’ll have to put some more thought into how that’s affecting cornering on my next ride.
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Andy Eunson
1 year, 6 months ago
It’s like what that bike fitter said. Bike fit is like a spiderweb. Pull it here and it moves over there. My wife is on the 50 rise and earlier in the season a bunch of spacers too. And a short Hope riser stem. Standing up to go up my 21% driveway it feels odd. Not good odd. Too cramped so one can go too high. She now has the stem slammed but same bar and stem. Standing feels better to me now. Some changes might feel odd even wrong at first but give the change a few rides before you decide. Then go back and feel the old set up. Simple adjustments like moving controls or saddle height, fore aft and tilt are free and easy. Bar height is tougher and more limited due to needing perhaps a new bar or steer tube if it was cut short. I always leave a steer tube long at first. When I cut it down, if I cut it down I leave a couple cm extra.
A higher position might make you want a different saddle too. Sitting higher puts more weight on your butt so maybe a bit more cushion and wider too.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
Spider web, no doubt.
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Kenny
1 year, 6 months ago
Sooo true on the overall fit equation.
I'm finding that when riding "long bikes" (chainstay and/or reach, but especially if both), I find I want all of the bar height. Higher the better.
I recently started sizing down a little and my need/desire for super tall bars has greatly diminished. Not slammed, but I'm comfortable on more like 35 rise as opposed to 50 or 70.
I feel less "indestructible" on a shorter bike with lower bars, for sure. But having a shorter distance from the front axle to the grips helps my riding in other ways.
The downside I'd find to super tall bars is when the distance from grips to axle becomes too great, my sense of connection/control of the front wheel starts to degrade.
Generally that is not of much consequence on the shore, at least at the speeds I ride, but I do notice it, especially once I get back on something with shorter stack and hit a couple fast corners.
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cheapondirt
1 year, 6 months ago
I haven't made any other adjustments yet. But wouldn't be surprised if something complex and beyond my comprehension is at play. I don't keep very close tabs on sag - should have measured it before the bar swap!
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bushtrucker
1 year, 6 months ago
Great article (as alway) Andrew. It’s funny cause it took me so long to come around to high riser bars and now I can’t imagine riding without them. Not on any off the shelf frames anyway. I think anyone looking for more sweep AND more rise definitely needs to try the High Rise Smooth Moves. They’re the bar that changed rigid trail riding for me. I wouldn’t say they’re a super forgiving bar in terms of flex but it’s a great shape that really gives all day comfort. I have the same bars in the Low Rise version on my custom hardtail. It has a 160mm headtube though so I’m already sitting plenty high. I also agree that crossbar style stew bars are noticeably stiff. I have Sunrise bars on my Surly BFD and you really don’t get much compliance out of them. The 29x3” tyres make a huge different there.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
Thank you! Yes, folks I’ve talk to with the tallest Smooth Move are quite happy (hence linking to it).
I linked to it elsewhere but after putting a bunch of hours on this rolled-back ProTaper setup I’d quite like to try the Newman 8/8 bar (8-degrees up and 8-degrees back). I clearly haven’t played with roll enough in the past as my bikes have become slacker.
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ru-tang
1 year, 6 months ago
I'm running the tallest Smooth Moves on my rigid Cotic Solaris Max. It's a great bar, and has plenty of flex. Highly recommend.
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fartymarty
1 year, 4 months ago
Post some piccys, that's a bike I gotta see.
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bushtrucker
1 year, 6 months ago
I reckon you gotta try them. The polished version are such a look on a rigid bike too! I think I went with an extra 10mm of stem when swapping over.
Yeah the impact of roll is very real, with small changes almost feeling like ya on a different set of bars. Especially combined with a bar that has generous rise AND upsweep. That seems to be the other consistent theme here. Sunrise bars are 7 up and Smooves are 5 up. Those Newman 8/8 bars sounds like the perfect starting point for riders who aren't convinced to try a 12*+ setup but still want to try a riser position.
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skeptatstic
2 months ago
Any photos!? I desparately want that bar to be a true 15-degree backsweep bar. So far, I feel like the only one that has the look of major backsweep is the SQ, but I need the big rise baby lol!
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Vik Banerjee
1 year, 6 months ago
I've got a couple custom steel frames spec'd out. Just fantasyland stuff for now, but I have included 150mm head tubes. That's 35mm - 55mm higher than what I am riding now. I'd still use a riser bar, but at least it would allow for something in the "normal" range like a "high" rise SQ Labs bar.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
I’ve been back and forth on this constantly. I ride my V2 for ages with a 1cm spacer and an SQ mid-rise bar/ right now I’m running a 76mm riser - does staying around a 120mm headtube preserve the maximum number of options (as many bike manufacturers claim)?
If I was pulling the trigger on a V3 tomorrow it would have a 150mm headtube, a higher BB than V2, and it would be stainless steel. All could change tomorrow.
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nothingfuture
1 year, 6 months ago
FWIW, my Walt has a 160mm headtube, 1cm spacers under the stem, and a 25mm rise on the bars. I was worried initially the front end would be too high to keep the front down on very steep uphills, but it's all been gravy.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
Designing around a 25mm riser makes a lot of sense since bars are very common from 10mm to 50mm rise in terms of going higher or lower.
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earle.b
1 year, 6 months ago
The bike I've just finished building is 150mm headtube. Allows me to run a slammed stem with the Hunter Smooth Move low rise bar and happy I went taller ht on this build. A few months back I started adding some spacers under the stem on my 130mm headtube bike and felt a bit more balanced.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
How long is the rear center? Wheelbase? Just curious as I find I like the my bar relatively higher on relatively longer bikes, especially with longer rear ends (Banshee Titan was quite illuminating).
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earle.b
1 year, 6 months ago
RC - 450mm
WB - 1290mm
Reach - 475mm
I forgot to take measurements off the old frame before cannibalizing it for a few needed parts, but it's shorter HT, shorter RC, but about the same WB with longer reach. Awkward to measure now as I pulled the shock and links out of it as I needed the bolts.
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bushtrucker
1 year, 6 months ago
This sounds like the exact same position I ended up with. Low Smooves and a 150 mm head tube. However the longer head tube was more about frame bag space than the taller position. Would happily run riser bars on a bike with a shorter head tube if I was only using it for trail. Would love to see a pic of ya bike!
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earle.b
1 year, 6 months ago
https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb23648075/p5pb23648075.jpg
Rear center is 450mm
Wheelbase is 1290mm
Reach is 475mm
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Perry Schebel
1 year, 6 months ago
I'm down with the long head tube, minimal spacers & low/mid rise bar aesthetic. Would like to see more frames leaning towards stretching those HT's). Ie, the anti WAO
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Flatted-again
1 year, 6 months ago
This popped out on the local craigslist:
(and here's the ad: https://santafe.craigslist.org/bik/d/taos-ski-valley-pole-evolink-158-xl-xxl/7532296871.html)
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roil
1 year, 6 months ago
Holly sh*t. I bet that thing rips.
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Flatted-again
1 year, 6 months ago
Makes those 29x3.0/2.8 tires look like 26ers
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Velocipedestrian
1 year, 6 months ago
Maybe they read the story about Bronson Moore... The Most interesting dude at Sea Otter.
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roil
1 year, 6 months ago
I've ridden Bronson's bike. Believe the hype.
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Velocipedestrian
1 year, 6 months ago
Now I look again in the context of this article I wonder if he (or one of you lot) tried just fitting a BMX bar?
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Stephen Gaucher
1 year, 6 months ago
What's that chrome stem tho?
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
It’s a silver NSB (North Shore Billet) Overlord 31.8 on both my rigs.
32mm or 40mm on my hardtail and currently running a 50mm on my Rifty.
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Stephen Gaucher
1 year, 6 months ago
Cheers Andrew!
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
Cheers, it’s my go-to. Made by nice folks in Whistler and the price has always been reasonable compared to other stems with similar design and machine time. I love the big hardware too.
I have one of the limited edition nickel plated ones they did as well, also in a 40mm. That’s just in a drawer but might be perfect on the V2.
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earle.b
1 year, 6 months ago
I emailed them asking if they would do the nickel plated ones again and they said no. :( sad face.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
Did they give you a reason?
I’m guessing because a certain % of mountain bikers suck. I know (of) at least one guy who was moaning because the nickel plating on his did what nickel plating does.
Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
You inspired me to take a few minutes to swap the 40mm stems around today. Should probably polish it.
earle.b
1 year, 6 months ago
They said it was an problematic process. See Ian's comments in the Riza thread, local anodizing and coatings always seem to be problematic. More than a few framebuilders and component makers have expressed frustration with having relatively small batch stuff coated to high standards.
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AndrewR
1 year, 6 months ago
I will never sell my LE Nickel - even if I don't use it (maybe one day it will be the 'just right' stem).
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fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
Now were all going down the bar roll worm hole I posted the following on https://nsmb.com/forum/forum/article-discussion-2/topic/meatengines-132290/?page=86 and have had length discussions with others about it.
> Bar Roll and Position...
> __So i'm running some 12 degree (Ergotecs - 50 and 70 rise) and 16 degree SQ Labs (High Rise) on my HT (doubles as a commuter) and FS bikes. I have 30, 40 and 50mm stems and have been playing around with bar roll to try and centre the "contact patch of my hands" (lets call it Hand Centre for lack of a better term) through the centre of the steerer tube - my theory is that this will give a neutral steering feel. Currently I am taking Hand Centre at 25mm_* in from the ends of the bars as I think this is where my weight goes. I'm using some string cable tied between the grips and then a 90 degree set square to align to the steerer centre.
> * This came from Paul Astons G1 write up where he does something similar.
> ** Now adjusted to grip centre as this makes more sense as a standard place to measure.
> __Given all of the above this takes stem length out of the equation as bars are always centred through the steerer - however the grip angle is not going to be constant. Hence I have been playing around with varying stem lengths - but are currently on 40mm with a 12x50 bar on HT and 30mm with 16xHigh bar on FS - but have only just changed them so need to ride them to comment on how they feel_
> I have had the 16 on the commuter and just changed to a 12 last week and didn't like the hand position cf the 16 as it didn't feel as natural.
The following article by RC is also an interesting read https://www.pinkbike.com/news/exploring-the-relationship-between-handlebar-vs-stem-length.html
Currently i'm still running an ESL (effective stem length) of 0mm on both my HT and FS bikes. The FS (64HA) feels good, the HT (66HA) feels a little twitchy.
It would be interesting to see if other NSMBers have measured ESL and see where they are at with it. My feeling is that on a longer slacker bike (big trail) ESL needs to be approaching 0mm. On a shorter steeper bike (say road bike) it needs to be a lot longer).
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Agleck7
1 year, 6 months ago
I’m skeptical that stem length doesn’t matter when you change sweep and roll, even if hands are in the same place. I think there’s something to the stem length relationship to fork offset and how pressure and input from hands is translated to force on the front wheel contact patch. Don’t have it all worked out but thought I’d throw that out there.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
Stem length makes a difference but to how great an extent - performance wise - I’m not there yet. Our brains are fairly amazing at adapting to things our bodies find more comfortable (think how much geo - Reach and HTA - change on hardtail with a 150mm fork, for example).
“I've run it with a 32, 40, and 50mm stem, and I've settled on the 40, at least for this week. When playing the game of millimetres - up and out, fore and aft - these are big changes.”
I’ve (currently) bumped up almost a centimetre which is not more or less comfortable but slows the steering down a touch with my bar chopped to 760mm and rolled back.
I’ve also tilted my brake levers down a touch (which was just a close your eyes and move stuff around process).
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fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
Agleck - You need to combine stem length and bar roll to get an effective stem length (ESL) - position of grip centre relative to steering axis (centre of steerer tube).
Example - a 300mm stem with bars that roll back 300mm gives you an ESL of 0mm which is the same as a 0mm stem and 0mm bar roll - and should feel the same.
So the stem length allows you to adjust the location you start the bar roll from. Andrews example of a BMX with 10" high bars is a good one. The stem length almost doesn't matter as you have so much scope to change the ESL.
Front / Rear weight balance is another factor that is affected by all this - as Andy E points out above it's spiderweb - pull one thing and it effects another.
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Cr4w
1 year, 6 months ago
If we're going back to higher rise bars can we have a return to some classics? Maybe a Titec Hellbent or a Diabolus?
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fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
Azonic Double Walls...
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Cr4w
1 year, 6 months ago
Ah yes the only bar I ever broke clean though right at the obvious stress riser.
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roil
1 year, 6 months ago
I'm running Surly Sunrise bars (chopped to 780mm), Renthal apex stem (31mm offset) and 25mm of spacers on my Privateer 161 P4 (515 reach) which gives me a slightly negative effective offset. The bike is so much easier to control and ride fast. Having the bars higher allows me to keep weight off the front of the bike for certain situations (steep drops, rock gardens, braking bumps and clearing large rocks). I have even switched with someone running a conventional setup mid trail and it confirmed how much better the high bar setup is.
Sorry I don't have a nice on trail photo to share.
*edit: can't seem to get the image to load. here's a link: https://ibb.co/km0nfbD
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fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
Snap
https://m.pinkbike.com/photo/18241371/
Didnt get on with them on my Murmur - not enough front weight / grip but that was with my Pikes which are crap compared to my cÖil m2s.... may have to give it another go as I still have the Sunrise bars and they do look badass.
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roil
1 year, 6 months ago
Steel on steel. Sign me up!
Interesting that you can't get enough weight forward. What's the reach on your bike and how tall are you? My bike is pretty long and I'm 6'0" (182mm) so maybe I'm in the sweet spot between reach and stack height for my size.
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fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
I'm 6'1" on a 515 reach as well (XL Starling Murmur). I may have to re-try them as I think my riding position has changed since I last tried it. Also with the coil Ohlins I have a lot more grip up front - worst case I can drop my softer spring back in the forks for a bit more sag (and grip).
It would certainly be the business on some of our steeper local trails.
I also cut mine to 780 - it took ages with a hacksaw. They are some solid bars.
How do you find the stiffness of the bars on the 161? I've had mine on my rigid bike and they're too stiff but shouldn't be a problem on the sag wagon.
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roil
1 year, 6 months ago
I was really prepared for a bone ratting ride with these bars but that has not been the case. I ran those SQ 711 grips in the photo only for my initial ride around the neighborhood. On trail, I've only run Wolf Tooth Fat Paws which give good vibration dampening. I also find that I'm not gripping the bars as hard with the higher setup so there are multiple factors at play.
One thing to consider when going back to the Surly bars in your stem's offset. I'm running a 31mm stem but the steering axis is actually behind the steer tube on account of the bar's orientation and backsweep. This setup helps resists flop or wandering in the front wheel (especially noticeable when climbing). I suspect this is because the bar (and my hands) provide counterweight to the wheel's tendency to flop/wander as opposed to exacerbating the flop with a positive steering axis offset with the mass of the bars and rider matching the orientation of the wheel. I hope that explanation makes sense.
Of note, I forgot to mention that I have a +3.5" ape index which gives me longer arms for this particular bike setup.
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fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
I'm currently a 31mm stem with SQ Labs 16s so similar backsweep to the 15 degrees on the Sunrise. I currently run an ESL(effective stem length)=0mm so should be able to do the same (or even a -ve ESL) on the Sunrise.
I'm off to Bike Park Wales in a few weeks so don't want to change anything before but after that i'm keen to have a play around.
otagoboy
1 year, 6 months ago
I run a Whiskyparts Milhouse bar - 825mm wide, 70mm rise, 8 degrees upsweep, 16 degrees backsweep. And they have a cool little crossbar for strength.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
What sort of bike setup are you running the Milhouse on?
Generally bars with a cross brace are very stiff (where high rise bars without have notably more flex than lower rise bars) and that’s the feed back I’ve heard (basically it’s a carbon Surly Sunrise).
That’s not inherently bad, a lot of riders like very stiff bars, it’s just always a concern for me as it’s very noticeable on the rigid bike.
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otagoboy
1 year, 6 months ago
Running this on a Zerode Katipo enduro bike 160mm travel front and rear. 35mm stem, Ergon GS1 grips. They are carbon. Can’t say I can tell they are any stiffer or softer than the SQLab 30X 16 degree riser on my other bike (Stumpjumper).
I’m old (62yrs) with low back issues, so like a higher bar especially on a bike with fairly low rise
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Blain Echols
1 year, 6 months ago
I wanted to use the Milhouse bar on my Moxie, but it's rated for 'Category 3' riding. I don't know if that should be concerning or not, but I didn't want to gamble. I'll do drops bigger than 2'.
I went with the Syntace High50 as it seemed most similar and DH rated. Pretty happy with the bars, but they're only available from overseas. https://r2-bike.com/SYNTACE-Handle-Bar-Vector-Carbon-Volt-matt-High50-318x780-mm-16
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otagoboy
1 year, 6 months ago
I haven’t worried about the Category 3 thing as I am light (63kg/138lbs) and don’t do drops bigger than a meter (3-4 feet) or so.
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Steven Hambleton
1 year, 6 months ago
Nooo! I looked high and low for the original bars that came with my hardtail but to no avail. After an hour of frantic searching, I remembered I sold them on another bike.
Now I have to sell my hardtail with a set of Chromag FU50 bars which I was hoping to keep hold of.
I wish PNW did 40mm and 50mm riser bars..
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
I’ve done this so many times.
The PNW bar is great. I tried to convince them to do a version with more sweep. Add a 15* and then make both in both the 30mm and 50mm rise? Yes, please.
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Steven Hambleton
1 year, 6 months ago
Of course if bikes had more stack then 30mm would be just fine!
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silverbansheebike
1 year, 6 months ago
I'm really happy that the riser bars are back. I always loved the oldschool look, but there was a period where I was stuck using a 20mm rise bar and a few spacers to get the height I wanted. Not exactly the coolest look!
My partner's bike recently received a nice min-maxed fork upgrade, but the steerer was just a bit too short to run the same bar height, so I think we will be experimenting with some riser bars :)
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
Riser bar FTW!
What fork did Claire go with?
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silverbansheebike
1 year, 6 months ago
It's a 2018 Yari Debonair! Classic Yari in that there's a bit much compression damping. I think next lowers service we may try a lighter wt oil and see if that helps a bit, and with the 2023 Rockshox lineup out, we are keeping a keen eye for older damper upgrades. Regardless, a massive improvement!
That, combined with a lighter wheel that we found, and that front end is in the air more than ever!
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
Sweet! Thanks for the update.
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Duncan Wright
1 year, 6 months ago
As for the big BMX look, I feel the same way every time I look at the Whisky Milhouse Bars on my -2 Angleset Salsa Timberjack. It has a bit of a chopper feel at the same time with the wheel way out in front and the moto-esque levers on the TRP brakes.
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Kyle Doherty
1 year, 6 months ago
What're the options for compliant bars in the hi-rise domain (50 to 80mm)? I've been running OneUp 35mm with 3cm of spacers, but more recently tried 50 and 80mm Deity Highsides with fewer. I like the cockpit feel of the Deitys, but feel a little more tired on long runs, as compared to the OneUps. I think the sweet spot for me would be an 60mm rise bar with normal sweeps, 5 and 9. Are there exceptionally compliant bars with these parameters? Would custom titanium be the way if cost were not considered?
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fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
Kyle - Ergotecs are worth a try as Vik notes above. They're 12 degree back sweep which I like (altho not as much as the 16 degree SQ Labs). And they're relatively cheap and do a 50mm or 70mm rise. They're not as compliant as the SQ but fine on the sag wagon.
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Blofeld
1 year, 6 months ago
I really can connect to the a-b-c bike comparison. I made a swap to a higher rise bar on my FS this year. The objective was to get the bars higher so it would be less of a transition from the tall-headtube hardtail. First ride I washed out the front wheel in a corner and crashed. I ended up letting air out of the fork for the ‘adjustment period’, and I’m not sure if I’ll keep the additional rise or go back to my starting position in the end.
It’s interesting how much give and take there is between fit and performance on the front end. Steering speed vs rigid fork compliance compensation vs seated pedalling comfort vs front wheel maneuverability has been the balance for me this year. It gets so convoluted it makes me think we’re measuring the wrong parts of the bike in geometry tables! I do think the ESL parameter that fartymarty brought up above is a good metric for this discussion. Now we need a standard for rise as well.
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a.funks
1 year, 6 months ago
What’s the stack height on your Waltworks Andrew?
I can’t believe how low I used to have my bars in my 26” days - I think that’s why I used to run my forks so hard, to keep the front end propped up!
Nowadays my two bikes (one singlespeed hardtail, one electric full-sus) both have 160mm 29” forks, and 40mm rise bars. The Levo has them a bit higher because of the taller head tube (I think both bikes have maybe a 10mm spacer below the stem) but that feels good because the chainstays are longer and there’s all that battery weight to counteract when lifting the front, so higher hands equals more leverage.
Regarding bar roll, that makes such a difference to steering feel with higher rise bars. No-one seems to agree on how bars “should” be rolled as a starting point - I’d assumed in-line with steerer tube was logical because if they’re not parallel to that axis and instead more like vertical, then as you increase the bar rise you’d have to shorten the stem length to get the same steering feel (effective stem length).
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
Certainly not telling anyone they have to roll their bars a certain way but especially with bigger rises you need to play with different positions!
Stack on my V2 is 600mm.
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fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
But measure effective stem length (ESL) as a reference so you have something to compare.
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4Runner1
1 year, 6 months ago
I went with a 35 mm rise OneUp and it’s been great. Has helped to relieve the lower back pain (getting old and accumulative injuries). The biggest surprise is that it hasn’t affected my (marginal) ability to climb.
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helpimabug
1 year, 6 months ago
Bar roll is a trip.
Forget about the change in reach for a minute and just think about how the sweep changes. Like, if you roll the bars back a little your upsweep decreases and turns into backsweep. While simultaneously your backsweep is decreasing while...also decreasing upsweep? And upsweep and backsweep are usually separate axis!
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
Absolutely. That's where the Newman bar that's 8°/8° is very interesting to me in terms to playing with roll. And of course the taller the bar the more effect a single degree of roll is having. Very fun.
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fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
And it affects how heavy / light the steering feels. Ive completely ignored reach in my latest experiments.
It's such a cheap way to change how your bike feels.
Edit - and do you set up your roll for standing or seated riding - given you are likely to be in a different position for each.... such a mine field.
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Velocipedestrian
1 year, 6 months ago
I find I need to set roll for wrist comfort, then use stem length to get steering feel.
Roll experiments are good to help figure out if it's time for a longer or shorter stem, but if the steering feel is right with sore wrists I won't keep riding it like that.
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fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
Ive just rolled my 30X 16s back to get a nice wrist position but the ESL is -ve (maybe 5-10mm) which feels "different". I need to ride it a little more to see if I like it or not. Otherwise the 31mm stem maybe being replaced with a 40mm stem and ESL back to 0mm.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
My ESL has been negative (31mm stem / 16° bar) and despite all the things I've read about how that's bad it works great for me. With a higher bar, I find that I need a longer stem. Even rolled back the ESL is positive with my current ProTaper setup.
I've been thinking a lot about hand position versus weight distribution. Think of comparing effective top tubes on two bikes instead of comparing Reach numbers. A shorter stem and lower bar position (shorter ESL) versus a longer stem and higher bar position (longer ESL) can be adjusted such that the rest of me is in a similar position.
The issue with playing with it is a 31mm stem is the shortest easily available option and more than 16° of backsweep bars I've tried (which have been substantially more at 20°+++) haven't worked for me on the trail. It would be a better experiment to do on something like the Large Chameleon I was running since my V2 is quite long. Anyway, future project in the works.
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fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
What did your ESL end up measuring? Mine was -8mm.
With my Surly Sunrise bars (83mm rise and 15 degrees) and 31mm stem i could potentially get quite a large negitive ESL. I'm ignoring effect on reach atm and focusing on weight / grip from each wheel. I figure if the weight balance is good the reach doesn't matter.
I'm also thinking winter is a good time to try it as sliding around on mud really highlights front / rear weighting / grip.
Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
Yeah, changing Reach doesn't matter so much on V2 because it's so long and well-balanced that I can adapt to almost anything fit-wise. It's a hard bike to pop the front end up on, but keeping the tires weighted is no issue.
I'll actually measure the ESL instead of guesstimating. I have a 40mm stem on now but the same rollback. It's right around 0mm right now so it was negative before with the 31mm stem.
fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
Andrew, if your running 16s I would expect similar numbers to mine. How did you find the -ESL? I need to tippex my 16s at the stem and mark so I have a reference point on the SQs. Thats my only complaint is that they dont have guide marks like Renthals.
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rainozeros
1 year, 6 months ago
I might be a little late to the party here, but I need to through in the aspect of uphill performance as well. I am riding a rigid lls (long,low,slack) Hardtail singlespeed and experiment with bar rise as well. I found that on the steep climbs the 60mm rise on my sixpack does the opposite of what it does on the downhills: less controll, or at least it’s much harder to push the bars and lean forward. It might be something related specially to singlespeed use, since front end pushing in low cadence requires a lower bar to be more efficient. At least in my experience. I changed it back to 25mm rise, where it seems to me could be my sweet spot. I just had to through that in, since you are riding singlespeed as well. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on this.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 6 months ago
It really depends on your head tube angle, Reach, and rear-center length.
Certainly raising the bar with a bike that has an actual or maybe proportionately short chainstay will affect climbing control and traction. My bike is so long that I can play with some fairly extreme setups without it affecting traction (front or rear) or stability.
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fartymarty
1 year, 6 months ago
For me SS rigid is a different beast - it needs to work standing and too high a bar doesn’t work on my Krampus which is short and not that slack with a long CS and slack STA.
FS which is L+S can take a higher bar as i'm seated climbing and it has a steeper STA and gears.
Definitely a case of horses for courses.
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