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Moab BLM Bans E-Bikes

Nov. 27, 2014, 10:15 a.m.
Posts: 160
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

I am not so sure about that. There is a gate at the bottom of the Flank at Function that has a sign that states no motorized vehicles and i think also at Loggers lake but I am not positive. I did see trials tire tracks Saturday on my way around Loggers lake last Saturday. I doubt that anyone would be able to take a motorized bike around Lost lake or Sea to Sky, or Riverside farside without getting in to trouble pretty quick, if caught. That said I would assume that other trails like Tunnel Vision and the like are fair game.

I think it behooves us mountainbikers to distance ourselves from the motorized/assisted riders in terms of access advocacy. Old man hiker will be even less inclined to endorse e-bikes than human powered bikes.

I should've clarified my statement somewhat I guess, yes they aren't allowed on RMOW Parks maintained trail systems, or even the Flank, but that doesn't preclude utilizing existing westside trails to access things like the alpine on Sproatt or Rainbow as they have done for years. That being said I know local trail builders who have requested trials riders help break in new trails, as I also know builders who are upset that trials motos have negatively impacted some recent trails.

I actually generally agree with you, re. distancing ourselves, however, historical use definitely blurs many lines and makes this a tricky issue. The big thing for me though is that generally speaking, trials motos are very few in numbers and generally have little impact, so I'm less concerned about that then the industry pushing e-bikes to the masses in the future as technology makes more powerful motors, that are lighter, and last longer, and thereby allow people without proper skills to start accessing places that have traditionally required fitness and skill to access.

Nov. 27, 2014, 10:46 a.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Sept. 20, 2006

allow people without proper skills to start accessing places that have traditionally required fitness and skill to access.

This is something that I see as concerning. Although it's hard to predict the frequency, a situation where someone gets lost and/or injured in the backcountry is a reality with transportation that enables getting out there. Just look at SAR reports on the Shore of unprepared people.

Nov. 27, 2014, 2:05 p.m.
Posts: 8552
Joined: Nov. 15, 2002

Pinkbike had the guts to come out against ebikes.

Cam at NSMB has no problem putting out an article which was basically an ebikes ad.

Lets see what other industry whores sell the trails out.

My god you are tiresome. It didn't take any guts at all to come out against ebikes. It's about as gutsy as government coming out against taxes. But thanks for calling me an industry whore. That's classy.

Do you have any idea how this business works? There is no upside to me 'promoting' ebikes. We aren't going after ebike ad dollars and none have been offered. It's a complete red herring that would only be presented by someone who knows nothing about this business.

If anything it was likely detrimental to our business to point out the community's hypocrisy and to review an ebike. But I feel strongly that we need to know a little about these things if we are going to deal with them and make rational recommendations about if, where and when they should be ridden.

Here are some facts.
Yes I wrote a review.
Yes I told the truth about how the bike works.
NO - I am not an advocate for e mountain bikes - assist or otherwise.
NO - I do no think we should advocate for their use on all trails. I think there are many reasons why we should be very careful about our position. Like Digger's point about them being able to climb singletrack, user conflicts, inexperienced riders getting in over their heads - and mostly the reaction that land managers might have. There are many concerns that I have, but also a few that I think are overblown.

Mostly though I think our current attitude reflects poorly on our sport or our community. We sound a lot like hikers did - and often still do - when talking about us. Blanket statements, fear, elitism, misinformation, hatred. It's like we're Fox News.

A certain local rider posted on FB last night, while I was speaking at the nsmba AGM, and literally put words in my mouth. He cherry picked words I did use and spun them to suit his interpretation of my opinion.

I said - "if we are going to justify banning ebikes because they will put more wear and tear on trails, should we also ban shuttling?" That became "he also said that riding an ebike is no different that shuttling."

I said "there are times when mountain bikers get so irrational about this that we sound a little like Mike Vandeman." That became "Cam's opinion is that anyone who opposes e bikes is the equivalent of Mike Vandeman."

This person also, for reasons that aren't completely clear but I that suppose relate to inflicting maximum damage, presented me as speaking for nsmb.com - when I was quite obviously there as a member of the community and nothing else.

Essentially while I was making a point about us being ignorant and close-minded about an issue he was proving my point by deciding what I was going to say before I said it - and then maliciously transmitting that on Facebook.

To his credit he posted a retraction after we spoke, which showed the sort of character that I had come to expect from this person over the fifteen years I have known him. Unfortunately the damage was already done and many people won't have seen his retraction.

What is someone like Monica Craver or Mike Vandeman going to say when they hear us echoing their exact complaints about another user group, that to the general public doesn't look any different than us? The fact that so many of us are blind to this hypocrisy is shocking.

And it's very likely to be detrimental to our cause.

Flame on and and be sure to misinterpret everything I've said. That'll show the world how worthy of respect we are as a community.

Nov. 27, 2014, 2:20 p.m.
Posts: 3160
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

well said Cam. i think there's too much of a rush to say no and in the end that may be what happens, but let's at least get there with reason.

We don't know what our limits are, so to start something with the idea of being limited actually ends up limiting us.
Ellen Langer

Nov. 27, 2014, 2:31 p.m.
Posts: 8935
Joined: Dec. 23, 2005

Cam I have a question for you.

If there was a gas engine assist bike that matched pound for pound and the same operation and performance as the electric assist bike you tested would you have tested if for nsmb.com?

What is it about an electric motor vs a gas motor that opens up a debate about usage on land currently designated as no motorized vehicles?

Nov. 27, 2014, 2:42 p.m.
Posts: 63
Joined: Aug. 6, 2004

I also agree with what Cam said last night at the AGM.

Way to much speculation on something that has not even hit the shore in any tangible way at this point.

Nov. 27, 2014, 2:49 p.m.
Posts: 8552
Joined: Nov. 15, 2002

Or maybe a nuclear one?

Why are we talking about hypotheticals? If and when these things start to appear, made by bike companies and marketed as an alternative to conventional mountain bikes, I guess we'll make a call at that time.

I guess you are trying to make a point but I'm not sure what it is. Maybe you can enlighten me?

Nov. 27, 2014, 3:01 p.m.
Posts: 8935
Joined: Dec. 23, 2005

I guess you are trying to make a point but I'm not sure what it is. Maybe you can enlighten me?

Why does an electric motor now open up the debate to use motorized vehicles on lands designated non-motorized?

Nov. 27, 2014, 3:12 p.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

Why does an electric motor now open up the debate to use motorized vehicles on lands designated non-motorized?

No idea Shirk.

While I do not know the US federal regulations that govern these machines. I do know that our federal regulations allow for a grey area. According to our government these are considered bicycles. Despite the fact that the chain, crank, pedals, and 2 sprockets are nothing more than decoration. Unlike the E Assisted Bicycle this cannot be pedaled.

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

Nov. 27, 2014, 3:14 p.m.
Posts: 160
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

does it have a motor? yes? congrats, you have a motorbike!

Nov. 27, 2014, 3:18 p.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

does it have a motor? yes? congrats, you have a motorbike!

More like a poor mans Vespa.

And if I am going to spend nearly $5,000 on something like this with a motor I will go buy a used Gas Gas or Montessa.

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

Nov. 27, 2014, 4:14 p.m.
Posts: 10
Joined: Jan. 12, 2006

I think the fact that e-bike manufacturers have chosen to market these things as electric mountain bikes, rather than electric motor-bikes, speaks volumes about who they see being the target user group. You don't, after-all, see Tesla marketing their wares as 'luxury golf-karts.'

I also think it's completely reasonable to err on the side of caution so as to avoid potential for conflict among exsting and more established user groups. That is, e-bikes = motorised bikes, and therefore they should be restricted accordingly. If user uptake is such that there is significant demand to open up trails other than those open to motorised traffic then that is a debate to be had nearer the time. Is that not, after-all, what happened with mtbs?

It seems some (Cam, Synchro, apologies if I'm paraphrasing or have missunderstood here) are suggesting that the default should be that e-bikes are allowed on all biking trails until we know better about their impact. I think that approach has the potential to burn bridges with land owners, other user groups and other stakeholders and is ill-advised. Many have fought long and hard to enjoy the access and relationships we have now. Is it worth risking all that? Of course, there are those in the industry who want to sell these things and sell them fast, which requires they not be restricted. I think as a user group we owe it to ourselves to stand against that.

Also, to the point about manufacturers considering producing e-bikes weighing up the impact of buyer backlash on their existing sales, this is not the only possible impact. If e-bikes are allowed everywhere, and trails are lost/closed because of it, they will sell fewer conventional bicycles, and the industry as a whole will suffer. Perhaps a little melodramatic, but it could happen.

Nov. 27, 2014, 4:27 p.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

I think the fact that e-bike manufacturers have chosen to market these things as electric mountain bikes, rather than electric motor-bikes, speaks volumes about who they see being the target user group. You don't, after-all, see Tesla marketing their wares as 'luxury golf-karts.'

Unfortunately the problem as I mentioned is the federal regulations in Canada. For the manufacturers to sell these at a lower cost they have to install cranks, pedals, and chain. By doing this it can be sold as a bicycle. This allows the manufacturer and importer to get around having to get federal certifications, insurance by the owner, and so on.

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

Nov. 27, 2014, 4:34 p.m.
Posts: 9747
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

I'm seeing ton of guys in this thread who personally build and ride trails that are not sanctioned. They don't obey the rules but others should

I get the issues but the hipocracy is pretty blatant.

Nov. 27, 2014, 4:38 p.m.
Posts: 18797
Joined: Oct. 28, 2003

I'm seeing ton of guys in this thread who personally build and ride trails that are not sanctioned. They don't obey the rules but others should

you could ban ebikes from the sanctioned trails…

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