Old growth logging

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: chupacabra

Even among the FN themselves there are entities with their own agenda willing to sacrifice the environment for either personal gain or short term gains for their community. The decision making process and the incentives are the same for the tribal leaders as they were for the Hudson Bay Company. 

While I agree with most of your post, let's recognize where this behaviour you mention comes from. Before colonization, Indigenous people and their cultures were not capitalistic and what you describe is borne from the effects of the  colonization and genocide of Indigenous people. I know it's not your intent, but let's not let the examples that do exist tar an entire people or serve as some sort of rationale/excuse to dismiss the concerns they face.

I don't feel like I am tarring a group of people by suggesting the FN leaders are as susceptible as anyone else to the temptations of capitalism.  Mic is wondering if FN people that support pipelines have lost their roots, but my point is that their roots are human.  This goes back to what I was saying before about reconciliation and letting academics tell us who FN people are.  FN people in my experience are as varied as anyone else and so are their concerns.  Their roots might be less important in their decision making than providing for their family and maybe a pipeline helps them do that.  Or they might be 3rd generation loggers.

At the end of the day if there are sides to the battle to save the big trees, or the environment as a whole, it is not FN vs Settlers, it is regular people vs corporate greed.

Sorry that’s just false dude. Every progressive knows that POC’s all think the same and that indigenous people have no interest in wealth or the modern world. That’s why they think that “not all indigenous support logging” is an interesting point to make.

Posted by: chupacabra

I don't feel like I am tarring a group of people by suggesting the FN leaders are as susceptible as anyone else to the temptations of capitalism.  Mic is wondering if FN people that support pipelines have lost their roots, but my point is that their roots are human.  This goes back to what I was saying before about reconciliation and letting academics tell us who FN people are.  FN people in my experience are as varied as anyone else and so are their concerns.  Their roots might be less important in their decision making than providing for their family and maybe a pipeline helps them do that.  Or they might be 3rd generation loggers.

At the end of the day if there are sides to the battle to save the big trees, or the environment as a whole, it is not FN vs Settlers, it is regular people vs corporate greed.

I know you're not, but there are people who use that line of thinking in a pejorative manner towards Indigenous people as a way to further oppress them. The reason it's important to address that is because you have generations of people who have been socialized, or better yet indoctrinated to hate themselves and their culture. That's what residential schools were all about, shaming those kids for being Indigenous. That said, there are plenty of Indigenous people with strong ties to their culture who have adopted some Western economic principles, just like there are Indigenous Elders who feel the harvest of old growth timber goes against their cultural practices. I also get this goes back to what you were saying before about reconciliation, which is exactly why I brought it up.

I think to get a better idea of reconciliation one really needs to appreciate the importance of relationships and people's connection to the land in First Nations culture. Their connection to the land is integral to who they are as a people.

Posted by: tashi

Sorry that’s just false dude. Every progressive knows that POC’s all think the same and that indigenous people have no interest in wealth or the modern world. That’s why they think that “not all indigenous support logging” is an interesting point to make.

The danger of the single story. 

https://www.ted.com/talks/chimamanda_ngozi_adichie_the_danger_of_a_single_story/up-next?language=en

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: chupacabra

I don't feel like I am tarring a group of people by suggesting the FN leaders are as susceptible as anyone else to the temptations of capitalism.  Mic is wondering if FN people that support pipelines have lost their roots, but my point is that their roots are human.  This goes back to what I was saying before about reconciliation and letting academics tell us who FN people are.  FN people in my experience are as varied as anyone else and so are their concerns.  Their roots might be less important in their decision making than providing for their family and maybe a pipeline helps them do that.  Or they might be 3rd generation loggers.

At the end of the day if there are sides to the battle to save the big trees, or the environment as a whole, it is not FN vs Settlers, it is regular people vs corporate greed.

I know you're not, but there are people who use that line of thinking in a pejorative manner towards Indigenous people as a way to further oppress them. The reason it's important to address that is because you have generations of people who have been socialized, or better yet indoctrinated to hate themselves and their culture. That's what residential schools were all about, shaming those kids for being Indigenous. That said, there are plenty of Indigenous people with strong ties to their culture who have adopted some Western economic principles, just like there are Indigenous Elders who feel the harvest of old growth timber goes against their cultural practices. I also get this goes back to what you were saying before about reconciliation, which is exactly why I brought it up.

I think to get a better idea of reconciliation one really needs to appreciate the importance of relationships and people's connection to the land in First Nations culture. Their connection to the land is integral to who they are as a people.

The shame for being native was really apparent where I grew up.  Pretty much every kid of native background in my school rarely mentioned it and wouldn't get their status card.  Some of them that appeared to be mostly native would joke about being apples.  Fast forward 30+ years and a lot of them are status natives and have started to embrace their background, but they have no real connection to their past.

Posted by: Mic

Posted by: tashi

Sorry that’s just false dude. Every progressive knows that POC’s all think the same and that indigenous people have no interest in wealth or the modern world. That’s why they think that “not all indigenous support logging” is an interesting point to make.

The danger of the single story. 

https://www.ted.com/talks/chimamanda_ngozi_adichie_the_danger_of_a_single_story/up-next?language=en

https://youtu.be/lcfepInd8q0

Posted by: chupacabra

Fast forward 30+ years and a lot of them are status natives and have started to embrace their background, but they have no real connection to their past.

Yup, and we have a responsibility to help that along. That was part of my motivation for starting that Indigenous thread. 

Back to logging tho, and part of the discussion around old growth logging should include value added products. There’s a bit of irony there as it pertains to this thread as the log on that logging truck pic in the first post is headed to a company that makes soundboards for guitars. In an interview with the company they started they don’t like logs that big as they’re difficult to work with and that it came as part of a package. 

When I think value added I think of things like furniture, and advanced lumber products like sips and structural members instead of plain old stick lumber and prefab panels as well.

Just read a thing that a dozen plain clothes officers pretending to be backpackers tore down one of the check points.  Amazing how many resources they're throwing at defending corporate interests vs public interests.

All hail the corporation's bottom line!

https://thetyee.ca/News/2021/06/04/Most-Natural-Thing-Gitxsan-House-Group-Closes-Territory-Logging/?fbclid=IwAR2aV48r9TM8g7TlNv9fobY1-6wzB0Cq1PM7X1y0D47GyTH8GHlCGYVJSR8

a good artical, a bunch of local scientists named  in there

Posted by: XXX_er's article

Critics pointed out that the province has not taken the same approach to Indigenous communities that oppose logging on their territories.

Yeah... Funny that.

The Gitxsan house have a fine history of fighting for their lands cuz this is where Delgamuukw went down

Amanda Follett is a fine local writer for the Tyee, same with Matt Simmons at the Narwhal,

people to follow if you go in for that whole enviro thing

Horgan’s government had already signed an agreement (download at end of story) with the Pacheedaht in late February in which the economically impoverished First Nation agreed to accept a small annual payment “to accommodate any potential adverse impacts on the Pacheedaht First Nation’s Aboriginal Interests resulting from Operational Plans or Administrative and/or Operational Decisions.” In other words, logging.

How small? The Pacheedaht accepted the equivalent of glass beads: $242,388 for the first year of the agreement, with no clear indication of what, if any, subsequent payments would be over the agreement’s 3-year term.

https://www.focusonvictoria.ca/forests/72/

Posted by: tashi

Sorry that’s just false dude. Every progressive knows that POC’s all think the same and that indigenous people have no interest in wealth or the modern world. That’s why they think that “not all indigenous support logging” is an interesting point to make.

Here's a funny thing about POCs.

Black and white people don't categorically fit into the POC since white and black are shades and not colors.

The Tyee doing well with this article on Fairy Creek

https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2021/06/01/Three-Days-Fairy-Creek-Theatre/?fbclid=IwAR0voZ6KiB6BnEATe6di610l0nJE30PFjs2bCodDeg_JcIaTgJMgVNb9HPw

But nobody without a financial or political stake in the status quo believes there’s anything sustainable about logging the kinds of trees Fairy Creek and Caycuse are full of, trees that range from 250-to 2,000-years-old. There’s no ambiguity here. The Old Growth Strategic Review that Premier John Horgan commissioned in 2019, and whose recommendation to stop logging precisely these kinds of valleys he endorsed in 2020, explicitly stated that old-growth forests are not renewable. That was a central tenet of the “paradigm shift” they urged the province to embrace"