Boulder CO - Another Mass Shooting

Posted by: chupacabra

You have a point Syncro, although there are 9 unclear ones that could bump those numbers up. According to the NYT they have mainly covered the mass shooting where the perp was a lone white male so I will lay the blame on them. The mass killing at the nightclub in Orlando and Virginia Tech were 2 of the worst as far as deaths are concerned and neither were white, so there is that as well.

OK, so can we at least agree that it almost all men. Looking at the stats for mass shootings with over 10 dead it is also clear that the use of semi-auto rifles is also on the rise.

I would guess that what skews our perception is that the highly publicized shootings at work/school/business locations are primarily white males. So in that context you are correct. What's not getting the same airplay are gang/urban related shootings where the perpetrator is less likely to be white - shootings in Chicago come to mind.

The gun lobby has a valid point when they say that responsible gun owners aren't the ones committing these killings. In light of that, there are two separate types of "mass shootings" going on and they both have very different reasons. It seems that the "white guy" shootings are committed by someone who has some sort of mental issue/grievance going on and has obtained a gun legally and the urban/gang types of shooting are crime related and most likely committed with illegally obtained guns.

I think in both instances tighter firearm regulations that are federally mandated will make a difference as having state control over gun laws is like having peeing and no peeing sections in a pool. As for the mental health aspect, that's a harder thing to tackle and for sure the darker side of gun culture, vigilantism and payback figure into that prominently. There are so many guns floating around in the US and highly disparate attitudes that it will take decades, if ever, for this problem to be sorted out. I think they've passed the point of no return on the gun issue and it will take some sort of catastrophic event to get things under some sort of control.

Tungsten is making a lot of sense in this thread.

Posted by: syncro

The gun lobby has a valid point when they say that responsible gun owners are the ones committing these killings. 

huh?

I think in both instances tighter firearm regulations that are federally mandated will make a difference as having state control over gun laws is like having peeing and no peeing sections in a pool. 

Good analogy.

Funny story. My older bro' travels round the country to pen shows in a Dodge van crammed with a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of antique pens. For awhile he carried around a .38 Special revolver "just in case". 

One day rolling down the freeway he crossed a state line, forget which one, Carolina or some such place and saw a billboard that announced "Unregistered Handgun - 10 years, NO PAROLE".

Stopped at the first turn out, drove into the woods and threw the gun as far as he could into the bush. lol...

Tungsten is making a lot of sense in this thread.

Quoted for posterity.

^^^ typo

should be aren't

Posted by: Schnickelfritz

That's gun ownership. Looking at mass shootings specifically, which I think is what Chup was talking about, 66% of mass shootings are perpetrated by white males.

Not 66% ... 66 incidents.  Read the axis!!  Totals up to 122, so actually 54%.

Posted by: syncro

I would guess that what skews our perception is that the highly publicized shootings at work/school/business locations are primarily white males. So in that context you are correct. What's not getting the same airplay are gang/urban related shootings where the perpetrator is less likely to be white - shootings in Chicago come to mind.

The gun lobby has a valid point when they say that responsible gun owners aren't the ones committing these killings. In light of that, there are two separate types of "mass shootings" going on and they both have very different reasons. It seems that the "white guy" shootings are committed by someone who has some sort of mental issue/grievance going on and has obtained a gun legally and the urban/gang types of shooting are crime related and most likely committed with illegally obtained guns.

I think in both instances tighter firearm regulations that are federally mandated will make a difference as having state control over gun laws is like having peeing and no peeing sections in a pool. As for the mental health aspect, that's a harder thing to tackle and for sure the darker side of gun culture, vigilantism and payback figure into that prominently. There are so many guns floating around in the US and highly disparate attitudes that it will take decades, if ever, for this problem to be sorted out. I think they've passed the point of no return on the gun issue and it will take some sort of catastrophic event to get things under some sort of control.

And I for sure have the bias of seeing most gun toting Americans as looking like the cast of Duck Dynasty.  The Pulse Nightclub and Virginia Tech shootings were widely covered and had the 2nd and 3rd worst death counts.

The gang shootings are not in the stats from Mother Jones.  I think they had their own classification of 3 or more dead where the victims were random or something like that.  The mass shootings are really just a minor part of their overall problem but I think they are the canary in the coal mine for a country that has too many guns and not enough restrictions.  Gangland shooting are typically targeted to some degree, or from committing other crimes.  Those shooting make up the vast majority of the stats and are mainly from handguns so a ban on semi-auto handguns across America would have a much larger impact but I think there would be a much bigger pushback and more people have them at home for "protection".  

Responsible gun owners don't commit any of the crimes with the guns or they lose their "responsible" adjective.  But pretty much all the illegal guns started as legal ones so their point is complete bullshit when you include their other argument that they don't want any additional regulations like registration, licensing or tracking.

The Big Lie is that "responsible gun owner" is static.  The gun fetishist lobby likes to perpetuate the fallacy that a "responsible gun owner" will never have a mental health breakdown, lose their shit, and become yet another mass shooter.

Posted by: chupacabra

Responsible gun owners don't commit any of the crimes with the guns or they lose their "responsible" adjective.  But pretty much all the illegal guns started as legal ones so their point is complete bullshit when you include their other argument that they don't want any additional regulations like registration, licensing or tracking.

This right here. 

This is how the NRA uses the word responsible. 

By their definition, the people doing these things are irresponsible gun owners.

It’s a specious argument.

I found this article interesting, look at what countries America lines up with WRT gun violence. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/03/24/980838151/gun-violence-deaths-how-the-u-s-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-world

Amazing.  Cruz manages to become more of a disgusting weasel every day!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WZ3R60tIFY

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExRuxl3W8AUJc4r?format=jpg&name=medium

Posted by: tashi

Posted by: chupacabra

Responsible gun owners don't commit any of the crimes with the guns or they lose their "responsible" adjective.  But pretty much all the illegal guns started as legal ones so their point is complete bullshit when you include their other argument that they don't want any additional regulations like registration, licensing or tracking.

This right here. 

This is how the NRA uses the word responsible. 

By their definition, the people doing these things are irresponsible gun owners.

It’s a specious argument.

I found this article interesting, look at what countries America lines up with WRT gun violence. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/03/24/980838151/gun-violence-deaths-how-the-u-s-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-world

It looks like Afghanistan should be setting up bases in the US to keep the peace, not the other way around.

Posted by: chupacabra

Responsible gun owners don't commit any of the crimes with the guns or they lose their "responsible" adjective.  But pretty much all the illegal guns started as legal ones so their point is complete bullshit when you include their other argument that they don't want any additional regulations like registration, licensing or tracking.

For sure. I'm not arguing against additional regulations and think they are dearly needed. The biggest problem in the US though is the amount of oversight that states have vs the feds. Unless there are consistent laws for all states you'll have the problem of guns being easily bought in a jurisdiction with lax regulations and transported to another with strict regulations. The perfect example of this is Illinois and Indiana. I honestly think the situation will never improve unless the US has another civil war or breaks up into some number of smaller countries. The attitudes and beliefs are just too disparate across the nation as a whole.

https://www.propublica.org/article/how-chicago-gets-its-guns

Posted by: KenN

The Big Lie is that "responsible gun owner" is static.  The gun fetishist lobby likes to perpetuate the fallacy that a "responsible gun owner" will never have a mental health breakdown, lose their shit, and become yet another mass shooter.

Realistically how often does that happen? You're just hypothesizing to feed your own narrative of dislike for gun owners and the gun lobby  - which is fair - but using bad arguments to counter their bad arguments doesn't win any points.

Posted by: tashi

This right here. 

This is how the NRA uses the word responsible. 

By their definition, the people doing these things are irresponsible gun owners.

It’s a specious argument.

I found this article interesting, look at what countries America lines up with WRT gun violence. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/03/24/980838151/gun-violence-deaths-how-the-u-s-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-world

Yup, but you can't lump every gun owner into one basket of numb nuts. The idea of responsible gun owners is not a specious argument, but I would agree that it can be applied in a specious manner.