Fromme parking open house

Another nice way up is from Braemer or Crippler zig zagging your way to Dempsey, climb up St Mary's to Skid Rd, up that to the new climbing trail. This gets you above the most fun part of BP. Extend your BP gnar experience! (I really like that top part, especially in the wet-good practice in braking control;)

Isn't that part of learning to ride?

This

My opinion here..

BP needs to be dumbed down or twined. Especially since espresso is a blue trail now.

Here's the thing, you get a lot of novice riders coming down espresso. When they're finished, they have the option to ditch out a Dempsey, or traverse BP. A lot of BP is pretty brutal for these kinds of riders. When its wet its even worse, wooden decents with processed wood, polished rock armour, technical tight turns. In many parts, if you make a mistake the price can be high.

Since BP is basically an access trail, it's difficulty should be at the lowest common denominator of the users feeding into it.

I'm not for dumbing down existing trails (new easier trails should be made), but in this case, BP is used by everybody and should be cleanable by anyone that can ride down espresso.

Disclaimer: I'm an advanced rider who recently got his girlfriend into riding. Her favorite trail is espresso. Shes not a fan of BP and I get nervous watching her ride/walk it.

Agreed. Personally I don't like the grunt up lol, but enjoy the technical downhill sections. But, if I send a beginner/intermediates down Expresso I always say "watch out for BP though! Session the corners."

Agreed. Personally I don't like the grunt up lol, but enjoy the technical downhill sections. But, if I send a beginner/intermediates down Expresso I always say "watch out for BP though! Session the corners."

I'm a low intermediate (1 year of riding experience) and enjoy the BP from Expresso back to Mtn Highway. It's a challenge, but very rewarding when you clean a new section for the first time. There's one or two steeper climbs I have to push up and a couple corners I can't get reliably, but that's the fun of riding. I don't think there are any parts that are dangerous to walk?

I agree though, a climbing trail from Dempsey up high would be awesome.

I'm an advanced rider who recently got his girlfriend into riding. Her favorite trail is espresso. Shes not a fan of BP and I get nervous watching her ride/walk it.

the dempsey/braemar exit might be a better option

Wow, I remember the time when I was a beginner rider and I valued the challenges a trail presented.

How will these beginners become intermediate or advanced if they don't have challenges to overcome?

Could you imagine if BP was made as easy as Expresso, people would ride a lot faster which would increase conflicts.

Keep in mind the BP is a multiuse trail so there are other groups to consider and this trail should not be altered to accommodate a part of one user group.

the dempsey/braemar exit might be a better option

Right now, this the only option for those who ride Expresso but are not up to the BP section it spills into. But if you're going to go though the trouble of making a trail intermediates can ride, it doesn't make much sense to have the connector trail it leads into be significantly harder.

But I see the challenge with re-working the BP. It's a very old, worn trail and cleaning up the mess would be an immense project. The section from Stairs of Despair to Mountain Highway would need to be re-aligned. Serious resources would be needed.

Also, I hear those who are saying HTFU. But BP is nothing more than a connector, and it's a shame if someone were to want to ride Expresso but opt out because the connector back is too hard and scary. BP is not the place for HTFU. Those who are saying HTFU probably don't have timid significant others/children that they want to ride with without having to trek to Squamish or the Fraser Valley to find something suitable.

My opinion here..

BP needs to be dumbed down or twined. Especially since espresso is a blue trail now.

Here's the thing, you get a lot of novice riders coming down espresso. When they're finished, they have the option to ditch out a Dempsey, or traverse BP. A lot of BP is pretty brutal for these kinds of riders. When its wet its even worse, wooden decents with processed wood, polished rock armour, technical tight turns. In many parts, if you make a mistake the price can be high.

Since BP is basically an access trail, it's difficulty should be at the lowest common denominator of the users feeding into it.

I'm not for dumbing down existing trails (new easier trails should be made), but in this case, BP is used by everybody and should be cleanable by anyone that can ride down espresso.

Disclaimer: I'm an advanced rider who recently got his girlfriend into riding. Her favorite trail is espresso. Shes not a fan of BP and I get nervous watching her ride/walk it.

+1
With the re-work on Expresso, my wife now enjoys heading up Mtn Hwy for the ride. But BP is way over her head and we always head down Dempsey. The worst of it is definitely the last section before Mtn Hwy. Most of the trail from Expresso to that point is, while technical/physically challenging, not a deal-breaker (for her). She has walked the uphills and the one really tight armoured corner. But that last section is brutal, even for intermediate riders.
The cleaned up exit now onto mtn hwy is great, it would be great to see that level of trail continued even further "up". Always enjoy the trail days for the easier trails that we frequent and I'd be more than happy to help on a BP day.

My opinion here..

BP needs to be dumbed down or twined.

i don't understand where the idea comes from that trails should move backwards or get easier to make it easier for people who don't have the skills to ride said trail. would it not make more sense to develop the skills necessary?

i realize this is something that's been an issue for a long time on the shore, but people have coped by either walking the difficult sections or choosing easier trails to ride. i do believe there is a strong need to develop a beginner route on fromme and it's getting better on seymour, but i don't believe it should come at the expense of making some trails easier.

Those who are saying HTFU probably don't have timid significant others/children that they want to ride with without having to trek to Squamish or the Fraser Valley to find something suitable.

burnaby mountain is a great place to go as is the lscr. you don't need to trek to squamish or the valley.

+1
With the re-work on Expresso, my wife now enjoys heading up Mtn Hwy for the ride. But BP is way over her head and we always head down Dempsey. The worst of it is definitely the last section before Mtn Hwy. Most of the trail from Expresso to that point is, while technical/physically challenging, not a deal-breaker (for her). She has walked the uphills and the one really tight armoured corner. But that last section is brutal, even for intermediate riders.
The cleaned up exit now onto mtn hwy is great, it would be great to see that level of trail continued even further "up". Always enjoy the trail days for the easier trails that we frequent and I'd be more than happy to help on a BP day.

so why is heading out dempsey such a bad thing? or better yet, why the need to exit out to mtn highway and the turnaround by the gate?

all of these question highlight the need to have a cohesive trail plan so people don't get left hanging in an awkward situation.

I dunno. Walking out a bit is not such a big deal, is it? Might take 10 mins longer? And the last bits of BP are challenging, but not "black" difficult. Depening on weather…

Alternatively, go out on breamar, but the pedal back to Coleman (for example) sucks way more….

Lap floppy bunny some more? Then tackle the tougher stuff? Lower griffin? Lots of options to help work up to cleaning the exit from expresso…

That section from the sharp RH corner down has had me on my face waay more times than any whole trail on Fromme :D

There's been various times when I've cleaned a much harder Brah Gnar trail only to hit the final section of BP tired, lose a bit of concentration and then BAM I'm down…..Dumb it down or not, but IMHO it's a horrible section of trail :) If I want baby heads, the final section of Mill St Connector to Coleman is more of a laugh (not really beginner friendly either though…).