Posted by: Polymath
Posted by: Hepcat
Deciding that gun statistics don't apply to you would be enough.
Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Look at the UK.
OK.
Firearms accounted for 81% of homicides in the USA in 2021. Knives or sharp objects accounted for 40% of homicides in the UK.
The UK had 161 firearm related deaths in a year, while the USA had over 37,000.
But the prevalence of guns has nothing to do with the all those deaths. It's just that the USA has way way more crazy people.
Posted by: Polymath
Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Look at the UK. Guns are heavily restricted and guess what the number one weapon of choice is? Knives. Violence always finds a way. The real problem is society, not the tools it uses. Look at school shooters: all male, mostly single (if not all), high prevalence of mental issues but most importantly lack of societal integration. Timothy McVeigh didn't use a gun but a truck with diesel fuel and fertilizer. Going to ban them too? And Fast-Orange brings up good points on the issue of cars too. What do you think the ratio deaths due to driving vrs. guns are. I wonder how many cars there are relative to population. And NV wants to pack in more people to raise the tax base but have they done anything to improve the roads?
It seems that anytime the topic of gun control and gun violence comes up there's always someone who'll use the "people kill people" argument - and it's not a very strong one. Let's at least consider that killing someone with a gun is easier than killing someone with a knife, both from a physical and psychological standpoint (link). While it's important to acknowledge societal factors, we should also consider that Western societies share fairly similar laws and values when making comparisons. To your point though, the USA may be a bit of an anomaly as guns are a large part of their culture. However, is killing a large part of their culture or is the main difference that its citizens have very easy access to highly efficient killing instruments in the form of semi-automatic rifles with high capacity magazines? You brought up school shooters, which ironically kinds of scuttles the point you're trying to make. Do you think those school shootings would have resulted in as many deaths had the assailant been using a knife instead of a gun? So while people do kill people, easy access to firearms, including those with the capacity to shoot a high number of bullets in a short period of time, make it much easier to kill/injure a lot of people.
Another poor point in your post is the inference of firearm bans. The talk is not about banning firearms, the talk is about stronger firearm legislation that includes improved licensing and restrictions to certain types of firearms, magazine sizes and modifications. If there's going to be any meaningful talk on firearms then it has to be based in a fairly realistic understanding of the issue and not one that is based primarily on emotion and personal bias.
United States may have the highest rate of gun ownership but when it comes to murder by guns per 100k people it isn't even in the top 10.
Canada is number 8 in the world for gun ownership but again there are dozens of nations with much higher rates of gun murder.
It's not the guns. It has more to do with economics and development than anything else.
All types of violence in the developed world has been increasing in the last few years as the ugly effects of austerity and late stage capitalism become more and more obvious.
Posted by: Fast-Orange
United States may have the highest rate of gun ownership but when it comes to murder by guns per 100k people it isn't even in the top 10.
It's not the guns. It has more to do with economics and development than anything else.
All types of violence in the developed world has been increasing in the last few years as the ugly effects of austerity and late stage capitalism become more and more obvious.
C'mon man, making the comparison between the US and places like El Salvador, Venezuela and other places with plenty of civil strife is pretty poor. Let's at least try and make some reasonable comparisons based on the general condition of those societies. Depending on which stat list and year you use, the USA will make it into the top 10.
Yes economics and development matters, but saying that access to firearms doesn't matter is like saying that people don't get fat in countries with cheap and plentiful access to high sugar/fat foods.
I don't know if you've noticed but civil strife in the US is increasing. The number of people living in poverty is increasing. Social media is whipping people into a frenzy.
I understand your point that you can call el salvador and venezuala failed states unlike the US but the US is getting there which is why violence is increasing.
Posted by: Fast-Orange
United States may have the highest rate of gun ownership but when it comes to murder by guns per 100k people it isn't even in the top 10.
You seriously going to compare a developed, first world western country to third world countries? Compare the USA to, say, countries of the EU/UK, or Canada, or Australia, or New Zealand and see what the numbers are like.
Posted by: switch
Posted by: Fast-Orange
United States may have the highest rate of gun ownership but when it comes to murder by guns per 100k people it isn't even in the top 10.
You seriously going to compare a developed, first world western country to third world countries? Compare the USA to, say, countries of the EU/UK, or Canada, or Australia, or New Zealand and see what the numbers are like.
You're making my point for me that gun violence is related to factors other than the availabilty of guns.
United states is barely first world anymore.
2021:
297 gun murders in Canada vs.
20,987 in the United states
Americans own 120 guns per 100 people
Canadians own 39 guns per 100 people and that's just counting the legal gun owners we know about.
Why isn't our gun murder rate 1/3 per capita of the united states if the only factor is guns in the hands of the citizens?
I believe that is because Canadians generally enjoy higher living standards and more economic opportunities than most Americans.
Posted by: Fast-Orange
2021:
297 gun murders in Canada vs.
20,987 in the United states
Americans own 120 guns per 100 people
Canadians own 39 guns per 100 people and that's just counting the legal gun owners we know about.
Why isn't our gun murder rate 1/3 per capita of the united states if the only factor is guns in the hands of the citizens?
I believe that is because Canadians generally enjoy higher living standards and more economic opportunities than most Americans.
Gun regulation is significantly stricter in Canada than the United States. The types of regulations that are blocked in the USA by fascist NRA owned Republicans wouldn't even get them to our level of restriction.
But yeah, it's cars or mental health, or drag queens or some other talking point causing the problem down there.
Wonder if we'll generally see disingenuous talking points begin to dry up now that the fountain of misinformation that was Tucker Carlson has stopped spewing?
I suppose there will always be a new spring to chug from, or downstream mud to wallow in.
But, yeah, don't even want to ask why America is barely first world, etc...I'm sure it was all slickly laid out by a right-wing pundit at some point.
Posted by: Hepcat
Wonder if we'll generally see disingenuous talking points begin to dry up now that the fountain of misinformation that was Tucker Carlson has stopped spewing?
I suppose there will always be a new spring to chug from, or downstream mud to wallow in.
But, yeah, don't even want to ask why America is barely first world, etc...I'm sure it was all slickly laid out by a right-wing pundit at some point.
I don't think people realize how awful, decayed and impoverished most of the United States is now.
And do you seriously think I'm right wing? That fucking hurts...I'm so far to thr anarchist left i don't even belive people should be allowed to own land.
Posted by: Couch_Surfer
Posted by: Fast-Orange
2021:
297 gun murders in Canada vs.
20,987 in the United states
Americans own 120 guns per 100 people
Canadians own 39 guns per 100 people and that's just counting the legal gun owners we know about.
Why isn't our gun murder rate 1/3 per capita of the united states if the only factor is guns in the hands of the citizens?
I believe that is because Canadians generally enjoy higher living standards and more economic opportunities than most Americans.
Gun regulation is significantly stricter in Canada than the United States. The types of regulations that are blocked in the USA by fascist NRA owned Republicans wouldn't even get them to our level of restriction.
But yeah, it's cars or mental health, or drag queens or some other talking point causing the problem down there.
But "it's the guns"
If that's an accurate claim then nothing matters aside from the amount of guns in people's posession.
If regulation has any effect then "it's mostly the guns"
Posted by: Hepcat
Posted by: chupacabra
So how many of my fellow gun non-owners would buy one if they lived in a state where everyone and their dog was packing? There must be a tipping point in society where the "can't beat em, join em" mentality kicks in. I don't shoot for sport and I don't feel the need just for protection, but I can't say I would feel the same in rural Texas.
I'm in the States, guns are easily accessible and shooting at the range is fun, but fuck no. Odds of someone dying in my house would go through the roof.
Where in the US? Do you feel unsafe where you live?
Posted by: Fast-Orange
But "it's the guns"
If that's an accurate claim then nothing matters aside from the amount of guns in people's posession.
If regulation has any effect then "it's mostly the guns"
Sorry, but "availability of guns" and "# of guns per capita" are not the same thing. If you are a would be killer without a gun, how hard would it be and how long would it take to get one so you could start killing? That is availability. In America there are a lot of legal options for that killer and in some states you are fully armed by lunch as to not let that murderous rage fade. There are also a lot more homes with guns to steal. A lot more illegal guns to buy, etc.
I get your point that there is more to the gun violence in America than simply the number of guns, but their rate of murders by firearm is far and away worse than in Canada where we have similar laws and culture so it is impossible to ignore their significance. Poverty and disenfranchisement have other known effects on society. Are any of those effects 8 or 9 times worse than ours?
Posted by: chupacabra
I get your point that there is more to the gun violence in America than simply the number of guns, but their rate of murders by firearm is far and away worse than in Canada where we have similar laws and culture so it is impossible to ignore their significance. Poverty and disenfranchisement have other known effects on society. Are any of those effects 8 or 9 times worse than ours?
Poverty, disenfranchisement and racism are easily 10 times worse in large parts of the United States. I'm not talking about Seattle, I'm not talking about New York I'm talking about podunk towns in Kentucky or ghettos in Michigan that are bereft of any real opportunities for people and extended periods of being poor, hungry and unsafe makes people nuts. Not all of the states is like this obviously but enough of it is to make it way more violent than it should be. I don't think Canada has reached the same level of economic and cultural decay but when we do I'm pretty sure we're gonna see our senseless violence stats going up right along with it. It's already happening.
Most of the gun violence in the states is gang violence and when you learn about all the different ways blacks and hispanics have historically been purposefully blocked from creating generational wealth (i.e. redlining, the bombing of Tulsa... racists rejections of mortgage apllications..etc..) then it's no surprise there's often 3rd world levels of violence in the US. Similar to how First Nations are over represented in these stats in Canada for similar reasons.
No matter which way you slice it if you wanna make America safer, shrink the wealth gap and stop being racist it's literally the only solution that lasts. Focusing on the guns is ignoring the elephant in the room and any new American gun legislation is only going to disarm marginalized groups that are under an ever growing threat of a more unhinged and reactionary and heavily armed right wing.
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