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*sigh*

Feb. 22, 2007, 8:29 p.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

Well, that's your take on the thread. I thought the thread was started in reaction to a BBC article about a US soldier confessing to raping and murding a 14 year old Iraqi girl.

Plus, you're taking some pretty good shots at people who may view things differently than you - like the "raped seagull" crack - and that's worthy of retort. Namely, that one of the reasons soldiers have died on our behalf is to preserve the very right of free speech and protest.

You'd prefer an environment that lets you speak to your pro-war agenda (like your creepy Canadian Forces/Taliban joke) without anybody challenging you. So, you deflect responses as being off-topic, or suggest that someone "needs the exercise" instead of actually dealing with the response. Be that as it may, and considering where things seem to be headed in Iran, I'm not sure I want to cut you that slack right now.

Nat

The very right of protest and free speech you mention warriors who have gone before to defend and died for. Is the same one's people like me are prepared to defend.

Meaning that you can say what you want within reason. As well as that you can agree or disagree with anything anyone here posts. And respond to things how one chooses.

At the time if the call is made I will answer, to ensure you and others can enjoy the freedoms you enjoy. Regardless of whether I like or despise your views.

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

Feb. 22, 2007, 8:31 p.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

okay I am way to tired to tell either of you to give it a rest. Just agree that you are both set in your convictions and move along, because that is how you will have peace, instead of endlessly debating around in a circle going no where and just getting more and more upset with each other. Yes E, i agree with Nat way more, and yes know that this is said with much affection, but just quit before it gets ugly.

Peace? Sorry, I'm dealing with in laws right now and there is no such thing as peace. I believe it's called a Mexican Stand off right now.

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

Feb. 22, 2007, 8:35 p.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

Back on topic.

The whole lowering recruiting standards to beef up numbers may have been at one point been done here in Canada after WWII.

Back in the 1950's there was an incident called The Korean War which Canada was part of. Our military at the time was desperate for troops to send. Apparently paid big bucks for the time to bring retired soldiers back in. I wonder if they made the same offer to our prisoners?

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

Feb. 22, 2007, 8:42 p.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

I've seen the movie, and it's called The Dirty Dozen.

There simply is no excuse for atrocity. It demeans us all, and the actions of these soldiers could be argued subvert and ultimately prolong the mission, thus putting the lives of others in uniform at risk for longer.

Nat

You forgot Play Dirty.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063443/

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

Feb. 22, 2007, 9:16 p.m.
Posts: 3631
Joined: Aug. 16, 2006

Peace? Sorry, I'm dealing with in laws right now and there is no such thing as peace. I believe it's called a Mexican Stand off right now.

well for not getting the point, all i gotta say is sigh.

Feb. 22, 2007, 10 p.m.
Posts: 2365
Joined: Dec. 31, 1969

See Nat, I'm torn.

I think you're coming at this from a buddhist-ish perspective on pacifism. Personally, I'm a big fan of peace. Raised mennonite pacifist. The two probably have a lot in common in philosophy of war.

I suppose that's one way of looking at it. I'd like to think that being anti-war isn't limited to Buddhists or Mennonites or any religious sect for that matter. Don't assume that if we were invaded, that people like me wouldn't stand up and fight to protect ourselves and (most) of our way of life.

However, from other experiences, I know that the reason why the West is dominant is one of two things: either a) we were blessed by God, or b) we have become the most effective warriors this planet has ever seen. (or some combination of the two)

Hmm. "Blessed" is a funny word in this context, but I think you're right in noting that it may be some combination of the two things you suggest. Considering how much killing has gone on in God's name over past 2000 years, it's likely an apocolyptic mashup of the missionary zeal of Christianity, rapacious capitalism, and Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel" thesis.

Don't you find it strange that so much killing goes on in God's name, and that whether your a Nazi in WW2 or a jihadi today, that their belief is that God has blessed them too?

I'll admit that you don't hear "Buddha is Great!" shouted as an army charges forward very often.

As to whether we're effective warriors or not, the west has prevailed in classic conflicts between nation states, but considering the Russians were chased out of Afghanistan in the 80s, the US sought "peace with honour" in Vietnam in the mid-seventies, and has now been in Iraq for longer than it took to defeat the Germans and the Japanese in WW2, I'm not sure how effective our warriors are today. It's been said that it's far easier to make war than peace, and sadly, that's probably true.

The reason this country is so great is because we're (the West) good at war. The reason our view of economics, politics, human rights, feminism, and just about everything else is dominant is because we're the best killers ever.
So what's the alternative? Will peace relinquish this dominance?

Wow. Not sure where to start. Are you suggesting that free markets, representational government, civil liberties and basic human rights, feminism(?) etc are values and constructs that must be exported at gunpoint? Not to mention that much of these values are currently under heavy assault in the West _because_we're at "war" right now. One alternative would be to not force our world view on others. Do we take on China ultimately? And why do we have to assume that peace will result in relinquishing dominance? Why not consider the alternative, that peaceful coexistance might actually be more beneficial to everyone than war.

The democrat/liberal/left wing view of the republican/conservative/right wing is that it is just out for selfish greed. Money, oil, exploitation, whatever it takes to get more loot.

The flipside to that is the view that they are, through their greed, selfishness and warmongering, protecting our dominance. And it is that dominance that allows the left to protest.

Thank God for the right to be a consumer. Now there is something worth dying for. The right wing is protecting their dominance, I'll grant you that. Also, you assume that it's only the left that wants or needs to "protest." Should the left wing be grateful for the right to protest? Aren't individual freedoms ultimately right wing ideals? See this is where everything falls apart, and one simply has to follow the money. Republicans demand less government, less spending, and the individual freedom to conduct business without interference. Meaning simply pay less tax. Yet they happily draft legislation to govern the private lives of citizens, from the bedroom to the art gallery to the record store, and the Bush administration takes the US budget from a healthy surplus to a horrific deficit in a couple of years. The right accuses the left of "social engineering" when it tries to make policy that helps disadvantaged people, yet happily seeks a constitutional amendment to prohibit gays from marrying.

I don't know what else to say man, it may very well be that we're here in this time and place because our ancestors were the meanest sons of bitches in their respective time. But that's evolution, and precludes God's blessing for our dominance, so I'll drop that.

Nat

Feb. 23, 2007, 1:29 a.m.
Posts: 1504
Joined: Jan. 16, 2003

i hope thats 90years in a Military Prison where he is raped and beaten for everyday for the rest of his life.

that disgusts me.


MON THE SCOTS

-[Check out my Deviations at http://trailstar.deviantart.com]-

Feb. 23, 2007, 6:01 a.m.
Posts: 13217
Joined: Nov. 24, 2002

me too…this is sick. beyond sick.

BUT: What do you have to expect from people who have been subjected to endless drills, shooting drills, exercises designed to keep them alive under the most gruesome conditions. Soldiers are trained to lose their humanity, or parts of it..and soon the whole thing gets complicated. such stories, such atrocities have been around since the first person was trained to become a professional arms bearer. happened in roman times, in the middle ages, during the 30 years war, the French Revolution, the US civil war….and this war is no exemption whatsoever.

"You don't learn from experience. You learn from reflecting on the experience."
- Kristen Ulmer

Feb. 23, 2007, 6:12 a.m.
Posts: 13940
Joined: March 15, 2003

Wow. Not sure where to start. Are you suggesting that free markets, representational government, civil liberties and basic human rights, feminism(?) etc are values and constructs that must be exported at gunpoint? Not to mention that much of these values are currently under heavy assault in the West _because_we're at "war" right now. One alternative would be to not force our world view on others. Do we take on China ultimately? And why do we have to assume that peace will result in relinquishing dominance? Why not consider the alternative, that peaceful coexistance might actually be more beneficial to everyone than war.

Nat, I am impressed with all of your rebuttal opinions, and I whole heartedly respect this excerpt. I was taking flack from people with my Mao avatar and "Soon you'll be pink" - all the while thinking exactly what you have noted above.

Not everyone wants to be 'Western-ized'. Nor should they be. Urge to travel going up one more notch, before this world is total chaos.

Feb. 23, 2007, 6:19 a.m.
Posts: 13217
Joined: Nov. 24, 2002

Not everyone wants to be 'Western-ized'. Nor should they be. Urge to travel going up one more notch, before this world is total chaos.

so true. everybody should spend some time (more than 4 weeks) abroad to get other lifestyles to know. although a lot of the currently dangerous places have always been dangerous (i.e. Central Asia, Africa…)

"You don't learn from experience. You learn from reflecting on the experience."
- Kristen Ulmer

Feb. 23, 2007, 8:31 a.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Feb. 5, 2005

I suppose that's one way of looking at it. I'd like to think that being anti-war isn't limited to Buddhists or Mennonites or any religious sect for that matter. Don't assume that if we were invaded, that people like me wouldn't stand up and fight to protect ourselves and (most) of our way of life.

That's why I referred to you as Buddist-ish. :)

Hmm. "Blessed" is a funny word in this context, but I think you're right in noting that it may be some combination of the two things you suggest. Considering how much killing has gone on in God's name over past 2000 years, it's likely an apocolyptic mashup of the missionary zeal of Christianity, rapacious capitalism, and Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel" thesis.

Pretty much every culture that we have record of has acted in a similar way: fight for supremacy. I'd say it's more of a human trait.

However, history remembers the victorious

Don't you find it strange that so much killing goes on in God's name, and that whether your a Nazi in WW2 or a jihadi today, that their belief is that God has blessed them too?

What's the alternative? If you believe in God (or a god,s) then you have to believe that he is on your side. Otherwise you might as well pack up if you believe that God is against you. It's hard to rally others to your cause if they believe that they are fighting against the almighty.

A fair bit of killing has happened for other causes as well, they just haven't survived the ages like religion. Bader-Meinhof could be compared to Al-Qaeda, but no common cause.

I'll admit that you don't hear "Buddha is Great!" shouted as an army charges forward very often.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/buddhism/buddhistethics/war.shtml
_For Buddhist countries this poses the difficult dilemma of how to protect the rights and lives of their citizens without breaking the principle of nonviolence.

The pure Buddhist attitude is shown in this story:

A Vietnam veteran was overheard rebuking the Vietnamese Buddhist monk, Thich Nhat Hanh, about his unswerving dedication to non-violence.

'You're a fool,' said the veteran - 'what if someone had wiped out all the Buddhists in the world and you were the last one left. Would you not try to kill the person who was trying to kill you, and in doing so save Buddhism?!'

Thich Nhat Hanh answered patiently 'It would be better to let him kill me. If there is any truth to Buddhism and the Dharma it will not disappear from the face of the earth, but will reappear when seekers of truth are ready to rediscover it.

'In killing I would be betraying and abandoning the very teachings I would be seeking to preserve. So it would be better to let him kill me and remain true to the spirit of the Dharma.'_

As to whether we're effective warriors or not, the west has prevailed in classic conflicts between nation states, but considering the Russians were chased out of Afghanistan in the 80s, the US sought "peace with honour" in Vietnam in the mid-seventies, and has now been in Iraq for longer than it took to defeat the Germans and the Japanese in WW2, I'm not sure how effective our warriors are today. It's been said that it's far easier to make war than peace, and sadly, that's probably true.

Historically, China has been the most powerful nation on the planet. For something like 90% of recorded history (can't remember the exact number). The past few hundred years of Western dominance has been a historical anomaly; a blip. Why the overtake? Pretty much because Europe experienced so little peace, had no overall emperor, was beset on all sides by interlocutors. So they got really, really good at war.

The more recent "failings" of the West in war have less to do with their proficiency, and more to do with the political distaste for all out war. Few would dispute that the West could destroy virtually any nation (or combination thereof) on the planet. But it's no longer about that. The war in Iraq would have gone quite differently if they had used strategies out of WWII. There wasn't really that much concern for the safety of German civilians in that war.

Wow. Not sure where to start. Are you suggesting that free markets, representational government, civil liberties and basic human rights, feminism(?) etc are values and constructs that must be exported at gunpoint? Not to mention that much of these values are currently under heavy assault in the West _because_we're at "war" right now. One alternative would be to not force our world view on others. Do we take on China ultimately? And why do we have to assume that peace will result in relinquishing dominance? Why not consider the alternative, that peaceful coexistance might actually be more beneficial to everyone than war.

Not suggesting that at all. But history has shown that people are drawn or attracted to power. They imitate the powerful. The dominance and might of the West has drawn other nations and cultures towards Western ways. The West dominates international organizations like the UN, WTO and Bretton Woods groups. Why? Because of military and economic power.

Countries have been westernized at gunpoint. But more have been attracted to western ways on their own.

Thank God for the right to be a consumer. Now there is something worth dying for. The right wing is protecting their dominance, I'll grant you that. Also, you assume that it's only the left that wants or needs to "protest." Should the left wing be grateful for the right to protest? Aren't individual freedoms ultimately right wing ideals? See this is where everything falls apart, and one simply has to follow the money. Republicans demand less government, less spending, and the individual freedom to conduct business without interference. Meaning simply pay less tax. Yet they happily draft legislation to govern the private lives of citizens, from the bedroom to the art gallery to the record store, and the Bush administration takes the US budget from a healthy surplus to a horrific deficit in a couple of years. The right accuses the left of "social engineering" when it tries to make policy that helps disadvantaged people, yet happily seeks a constitutional amendment to prohibit gays from marrying.

I would suggest that the majority of protest historically in the US has come from the left (perhaps because the left has produced so few presidents). In the Soviet Union, I'd imagine it wasn't the left that wanted to protest. Or in China or Cuba. In Canada, you get protests from both sides.

I'd say that individual freedoms are a Western ideal, not limited to left or right in America.

I would totally agree that on paper Republicans are hypocritical. But I think that view often stems from ideas of politics from a generation ago. At this point they're a mishmash, just as the Democrats are. Hilary Clinton is probably more of a Republican than John McCain. Personally, I'd love to see them ditch both official parties and reform around current politics. A true left/green party could probably see more success than being hidden in a Democrat party that gives lipservice to leftist ideals. Or have the Reps, Dems and a "Freaking Common Sense" party.

I don't know what else to say man, it may very well be that we're here in this time and place because our ancestors were the meanest sons of bitches in their respective time. But that's evolution, and precludes God's blessing for our dominance, so I'll drop that.

Nat

If you assume the non-existence of a God.

Feb. 23, 2007, 8:58 a.m.
Posts: 16818
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

"So Man created god in his own image, in the image of Man created he him."

Genesis 1:27 (with edits for truth)

Kn.

When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity.

When many people suffer from a delusion, it is called religion.

Feb. 23, 2007, 10:24 a.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Nov. 20, 2002

The very right of protest and free speech you mention warriors who have gone before to defend and died for. Is the same one's people like me are prepared to defend.

the trouble is that this current war has NOTHING to do with defending anyone. that is the very core of the issue.

turn off sigs…it will change your life

Feb. 23, 2007, 10:35 a.m.
Posts: 1213
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

atrocity-producing situation

intelligent designer jeans
cornichons > dills

Feb. 23, 2007, 10:37 a.m.
Posts: 216
Joined: July 8, 2005

That was what the French Forgeign Legion was created for,

From Wikipedia:

"The French Foreign Legion was created by Louis Philippe, then King of the French, on March 10, 1831. The direct reason was that foreigners were forbidden to serve in the French Army after the 1830 July Revolution.[1]

The Legion was to remove disruptive elements from society and put them to use fighting the enemies of France. The recruits came from failed revolutionaries from the rest of Europe, soldiers from the disbanded foreign regiments and troublemakers in general, both foreign and French. Because Algeria was proving to be a very unpopular posting with regular regiments in the French Army, the Legion was welcomed."

The Legion Etrangere was and still is, man for man, the best fighting force on the planet. Getting in with a criminal record/mental flakiness/instability is not that easy anymore. Now, it attracts mainly the "fighter-warrior" types, not so much people running from their past or trying to start a new life. One of my relatives served there during the Algerian campaign and one's serving there now - big difference, according to them.

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