Dirtiest Oil on Earth

Would this be considered a strawman or a false dichotomy fallacy? Or a combination of the two? Perhaps with a just a dab of red herring in there for flavour?

he's got a strong point - consider how many people actually go out of their way to make the harder choice when it comes to transportaion. i wonder how many people could commute by bicycle compared to the numbers that actually do. it's easy to find an excuse not to make the hard choice. the bulk of the population simply doesn't care enough to make choices that will improve things.

the bulk of the population simply doesn't care enough to make choices that will improve things.

yup.

most people are too busy working and making ends meet to give two shits about the environment and climate change. especially if it means even less money in their pockets.

i agree with your ideas on taxation, however, no politician who goes this route is likely to get re-elected. i believe the new Australian PM is (or will be) repealing their carbon tax.

yeah, after all, who needs clean air to breathe or clean water to drink? pussies, that's who.

he's got a strong point…

That is completely separate from the discussion at hand.

yup.

most people are too busy working and making ends meet to give two shits about the environment and climate change. especially if it means even less money in their pockets.

i agree with your ideas on taxation, however, no politician who goes this route is likely to get re-elected. i believe the new Australian PM is (or will be) repealing their carbon tax.

People are to busy? "Average Canadian is watching 30 hours per week of TV"

From the people I engage with regarding the oil sands, the Embridge planned pipeline and our environment in general the overwhelming response is one of complete Defeatism.

They really think that there is no point in fighting or changing because the Government in the end is going to do what ever the hell it wants and that we are already screwed anyways.

Scary I find this way of thinking.

That is completely separate from the discussion at hand.

fair enough.

over the last couple of weeks i've watched quite a few docs on CL and other enviro issues facing humanity and i have to admit my picture of the future is pretty bleak.
i'd almost guess the best thing now is to let cvilization collapse and hope that enough people survive to rebuild. i feel the best i can hope for is that it doesn't happen in my life time. either way, i'm still going to do what i can to limit my impact - it strikes as the ethical thing to do. use less than what you need.

People are to busy? "Average Canadian is watching 30 hours per week of TV"

From the people I engage with regarding the oil sands, the Embridge planned pipeline and our environment in general the overwhelming response is one of complete Defeatism.

They really think that there is no point in fighting or changing because the Government in the end is going to do what ever the hell it wants and that we are already screwed anyways.

Scary I find this way of thinking.

Without bringing too much idealism to it, to launch a decent opposition to these mega infrastructure projects takes a team of people dedicated full time to the cause.

The defeatist attitude, thought maybe not right, is somewhat justified when put into perspective.

These companies spend hundredths of millions of lobbying dollars a year to push these projects through, it can be difficult to even figure where to start when you are faced with prime time televised ads tellings millions that these pipelines are the best thing since sliced bread.

Add to that the fact that the younger generation typically motivated enough with these challenges is in an overwhelming amount of student debt, faced with lacklustre job opportunities, and underemployment.

The more immediate issues become how to pay off tens of thousands of student debt and make the monthly rent at the same time.

Not unlike anything else today, these issues are all intertwined. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

fair enough.

over the last couple of weeks i've watched quite a few docs on CL and other enviro issues facing humanity and i have to admit my picture of the future is pretty bleak.
i'd almost guess the best thing now is to let cvilization collapse and hope that enough people survive to rebuild. i feel the best i can hope for is that it doesn't happen in my life time. either way, i'm still going to do what i can to limit my impact - it strikes as the ethical thing to do. use less than what you need.

I agree.

Humans are much better at reacting than planning, the normalcy bias gets in the way big time.

By the time the change becomes bad enough to effect Joe Plumber it will be too late to do anything meaningful.

The only question is how accurate the current predictions are.

Not to derail the thread, but here are a few good reads if anyone has the time, or inclination.

You can "take issue" with this, that and the other or whatever you want. But if the best you can do is cut-and-paste on interwebz forums and avoid filling up at Shell stations whenever its not too inconvenient, no amount of critical thinking will accomplish any change.

Yup.

From now on, no more chainsaws on trail days; bow saws only. Do your part.

That is completely separate from the discussion at hand.

There is an entire industry devoted to the mockery of rich/famous/powerful and even ordinary people who profess one set of principles and then live their lives by another. "Be the change you wish to see in the world". That's the most direct way to put your money where your mouth is. It begins with you or STFU with the blah-blah-blah.

Yup.

From now on, no more chainsaws on trail days; bow saws only. Do your part.

and wooden wheels on yer bicycles

and wooden wheels on yer bicycles

Tree Murderer!

There is an entire industry devoted to the mockery of rich/famous/powerful and even ordinary people who profess one set of principles and then live their lives by another. "Be the change you wish to see in the world". That's the most direct way to put your money where your mouth is. It begins with you or STFU with the blah-blah-blah.

and wooden wheels on yer bicycles

I know these are both meant to be tongue-in-cheek (slightly, anyways). But this is the part of the debate where I do get a bit irritated. There's a bit too much of the "if you use any oil/petroleum product then you don't care" argument. It forces people to feel helpless and then just say "f*ck it". If you read the literature, to decrease our oil dependence doesnt require every person in the world to ditch their cars and never use any more petroleum products ever again. Its a lot smaller than that, the problem is that it takes a bit of change by EVERYONE. Similar to selling a product to make a profit, if the margin is small, then the volume has to be high. Its similar to decrease oil dependence.