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Vorsprung-Suspension's posts

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March 2, 2015, 3:27 a.m.
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Joined: April 16, 2014
vorsprung corset

Hey guys, Steve here - appreciate the coverage and the discussion. We're stoked about the reception the Corset has had, to say the least!

We've had so many questions about "will this work on my particular frame" that it seemed more efficient to write a small novel on how the Corset interacts with the various linkage types out there than to try to answer each question individually. It's a big, in-depth tech post that's arguably a touch large to reproduce here, but if you're interested in reading it the link is here - How Will The Corset Work With My Frame?

Any other questions, please feel free to hit me up on steve at vorsprungsuspension dot com.

July 4, 2014, 12:49 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: April 16, 2014
Fox 34 woes

I should clarify - we can check fitment if you're actually interested in buying one. If it fits, we charge you for the TLA system, if it doesn't, free service. Punky is first in line as it stands.

July 4, 2014, 11:32 a.m.
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Joined: April 16, 2014
Fox 34 woes

Is it available for a 34 Talas RLC K 29,

We actually haven't checked fitment with the RLC damper (since they were quite uncommon), however if you're interested in finding out, you can send us your fork and we'll check. If it doesn't fit, you just landed yourself a free fork service :)

July 2, 2014, 11:08 a.m.
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Joined: April 16, 2014
Vursprung Fox 34 upgrade

Looks goofy to me with the top being open. I would go for the Push kit it looks cleaner and you don't need Allen keys to adjust it.

We did have a good look at this during the design stage, originally intending to use a fully-covering topcap like most forks do. However, in order to have two separate LSC adjusters, the "open top" is necessary unless you want to use a system like Fox use in the RLC or CTD Trail Adjust dampers, where there is a LSC knob with machined ramps that push a needle down. The reason we avoided that system is that due to the tight tolerances required coupled with the tolerance stacking involved, it's both highly ineffective and inconsistent between units (as proven on the dyno) as well as expensive to make. Expensive + inconsistent + ineffective = not a good choice. We recessed the topcap too because the alternatives were either a higher stack height (which interfered with some frames when you turned the bars 90 degrees) or insufficient purchase of the lever on the adjustment post mechanism (basically making the lever feel cheap and wobbly). This does mean that dirt can settle in the recess, however all adjusters are properly sealed and won't give you any issues - it was our opinion that having a system like Fox's that stayed cleaner was not as valuable as having precise adjustment. This may not sit well with everyone, however from a design point of view we saw it as a better compromise than the alternatives. Is it perfect? No - nothing is.

As far as allen key adjustment - while it isn't a big issue either way really, we are a fan of tooled adjustments because they force you to actually put some consideration into your adjustments, rather than just twiddling knobs trailside without much thought. You can see the effects of this with the CCDB, whereby people take their tools with them in order to focus on setting the damper up, then once it's done properly, they put the tools away and don't need to bother with it again. While it sounds good in theory to have completely tool free adjustments, our experience is that forcing people to actually concentrate on setup means that they do a better job of it. Plus, if you ride with allen keys, it's not too hard to pull them out to make adjustments :)

Hopefully this explains why we've done some of the things we've done. I have no doubt that not everyone will agree with our methodology, and that's fine, but at least you'll see that there's reasoning behind the decisions we've made :)

July 2, 2014, 10:25 a.m.
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Joined: April 16, 2014
Fox 34 woes

I've heard good things about the Vorsprung kit, but it is pricey for what it is for sure.

Update:

Rear shock is being replaced with a Rockshox Monarch Plus RC3, should be a huge improvement.
As for the fork, I'm going to run it until I can scrimp and save the cash for a Marzocchi 350CR. I don't think it's smart to put money into the 34 when it's always just going to be a sub-par fork with a weird steerer size. Something like polishing a turd…

To the best of my knowledge (ie unless some of the alternatives have come down in price recently), the TLA Compression System is actually the least expensive upgrade on the market for the 34. When you consider that you also get a full fork rebuild, new seals etc included in the price, a whole new compression assembly which is literally half the damper, as well as true custom valving (we have more than 15 valving configurations for this kit already, and will continue to generate more for other riders as required) rather than simply soft/medium/firm, it really is about as inexpensive as such a system can be.

As for the performance of the 34, don't take my word for it when I say the TLA completely transforms the fork - ask anybody else who rides one. The stock damper is really the only substantially sub-par aspect of the 34, and with that sorted, it rips.

June 6, 2014, 1:13 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: April 16, 2014
RS Revelation RLT Ti Dual Position Air woes

It's most likely the check valve that allows air to move from the negative to the positive chamber - if this isn't sealing properly, air can vent from positive to negative sides of the piston, particularly when there's not much load on the bike. Feel free to shoot me an email if you'd like us to have a look at it, steve at vorsprungsuspension dot com. We guarantee our work - no fix, no charge. But having seen and fixed this issue before, it shouldn't be a problem.

June 4, 2014, 6:07 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: April 16, 2014
Offset shock bushings?

Rodie - I should mention that I just noticed you're looking to extend your i2i rather than shorten it? This is not a good idea - the forces acting on your shock bolts are trying to compress the shock virtually all the time (the only time the opposite happens is when your suspension tops out as your wheel leaves the ground), and are likely to rotate the reducers within your eyelets, such that you actually end up shortening the eye to eye below stock. If you have frame interference issues, this will make it worse rather than better.

June 4, 2014, 5:13 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: April 16, 2014
Understanding Suspension: Cavitation

@Vorsprung Suspension

thank you for your continuing replies to my questions

another question.

since suspension appears to be a lot more complex than many layman (or laywomen) may assume, does the shock tune / setup actually play a larger role in the overall experience of riding a full suspension bike, than the suspension design itself does?

in other words, would a simple single pivot design with a dialled setup ride "better" than a short-link virtual pivot design with a bad tune or incorrect setup.

Or does some inherent advantage in the second example, overcome or mask to some degree a bad tune or setup?

The short answer is that both of them matter a lot. If one is good, shortcomings of the other can be reduced somewhat, but really both play fairly equal parts in making your suspension work well.

June 4, 2014, 10:32 a.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: April 16, 2014
Understanding Suspension: Cavitation

@Vorsprung Suspension

thanks for taking the time to answer my question, I certainly learnt a good deal from your information

from own experiences working as a wrench, I've found a good number of customer have gotten confused with their DB shock setup, due to the wide range of adjustment and number of adjusters on that shock

Is a simpler shock with a good tune, correct spring rate and only perhaps rebound adjustment, more suitable for many riders?

From your experience do many bikes come with specific tunes for the suspension design? (this is something many manufacturers will claim).

Or do many bikes come with a generic tune, and the rider would benefit from a specific tune?

one last question, some years back one of the German MTB mags did quite an in depth suspension test where they took something like a dozen Fox piggyback coil shocks, dyno tested them and found wildly varying results even though each shock had the same specification.

Have you seen this during your experience with different shocks?

I wouldn't say removal of the adjusters entirely (so that you only have say a rebound adjuster) is a good thing. What is a good thing is a smaller but more usable range for your adjusters - like what Ohlins are trying to do with their shocks, and like BOS have always done (the adjustment range on those is really quite small).

What Fox claim as say a "Medium" tune can vary quite a bit, esp from year to year. Unless those guys actually pulled the things apart and verified that the valving was the same, I would say they've simply missed that. From running them on the dyno, Fox stuff is typically very consistent between one shock and another. Where Fox shocks in the past have not been so consistent is with heat - because the Boost Valve is dependent on the air/nitrogen pressure in the shock, when the oil heats that air/nitrogen up it increases the pressure, all the while the oil is getting thinner as the temperature increases (although the stock Fox oil is one of the most thermally stable oils on the market FYI). As a result you end up with increased end-stroke compression damping, and decreased low-speed rebound damping. This is one of the legitimate drawbacks of position-sensitive damping.

June 3, 2014, 9 a.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: April 16, 2014
Understanding Suspension: Cavitation

Great information here!! What's your opinion (if any) on BOS shocks?… I have a Kirk on my AM bike and I think its flipping brilliant, although I am not a technical suspension geek. I also have a CCDB Air on my DH bike which I really like as well.

Hard to have an opinion on a whole brand or line of products, but for the most part I like their stuff. It's all very well made stuff, with very low friction, although the spring and damping curves work extremely well for some people on certain frames, and not so well for others. Again though, pretty solid stuff and typically good if not great.

But if you already own one, you know exactly what it's like, so no need to ask my opinion :)

How does a shock with no reservoir (like an old fox vanilla) deal with shaft displacement during compression?

They have an IFP inside the barrel that separates the damping oil from a nitrogen/air charge.

June 3, 2014, 12:09 a.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: April 16, 2014
Understanding Suspension: Cavitation

how would you compare it to a manitou isx-6?

but, but, whatabout all of the guys who buy one and swear that it totally transformed their bike (with the caveat that they're still working on getting it properly set up)?

I have never had the opportunity to do anything with an ISX-6 so I'm not the best person to tell you.

The CCDB is a very low-friction shock with good baseline settings provided by Cane Creek for most people. If you run appropriate sag (the ideal amount for each person/frame varies quite a bit) and set it to the baseline settings, chances are you've got a shock that rides quite decently. What it's very good at is not sucking in any particular way - there are a few occasions (ie frame/rider/terrain combinations) where I would say that there are other shocks that outperform it, but on the whole it's a very solid unit. If you've got a shock that performs poorly, isn't well suited to your frame, isn't valved appropriately, is not well maintained, and/or is not well set up (this is a big one), then installing a super smooth new shock with good baseline settings probably IS a big improvement. In that respect it's a bit like buying a Trek or a Specialized or a Norco or a Giant - you may not be buying THE best bike on the market but you can be pretty sure that what you're getting is at least very good and won't have lots of characteristic foibles that just annoy you.

Is it the be-all, end-all of suspension? No - nothing is. Is it a good solid shock with performance ranging from good to excellent depending on application? Yes.

For the record, my personal bike has a CCDB Air on it. It's good. :)

June 2, 2014, 11:33 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: April 16, 2014
Offset shock bushings?

We are currently setting up to make these, let us know the dimensions you need and we can have them ready for you in a couple of days. Alternatively, we can look at shortening the stroke of the shock if you prefer.

June 2, 2014, 11:28 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: April 16, 2014
Understanding Suspension: Cavitation

Are you looking to understand the physical differences in layout/function, the conceptual differences, or how the two affect real world performance?

I've read Cane Creek's pamphlet on the "Double Barrel" which had some graphics and kind of understand the idea, but not enough to understand how it would actually effect a real world riding scenario

It seems the DB setup allows more control of the oil flow using the adjusters, whereas 'de carbon' shocks have a very limited adjustment range as the adjusters account for a very small amount of the oil flow going through the piston. I also read something about DB shocks recirculating oil.

What I am having problems understanding is if the DB shock just allows a better initial setup for a specific frame(which could be achieved on de carbon shocks using a shim-stack rebuild or whatever other trickery is involved)

Or is the DB just physically a superior shock because of the way it works when dealing with the real terrain?

Any information you could provide without getting too technical (I don't mind reading tech stuff..I enjoy it! but don't want to waste your time) would be appreciated

many thanks!

Rob C

The CCDB has 3 main selling points:
1. It's very adjustable - with separate (I avoid the term "independent" because it just isn't accurate, all HS/LS adjusters have overlap) high speed and low speed adjusters for both compression and rebound, all of which have a fairly wide range, it does work well off the shelf on a wide variety of bikes. Cane Creek also give pretty good starting points for their damper settings for almost any bike on the market, and the adjustments are consistent and precise.
2. Cavitation is almost impossible within this damper. Because oil reaches the back side of the piston both through the main piston's ports/shim stack, and simultaneously through the adjusters, cavitation can't really occur if the shock is functioning correctly (correct nitrogen pressure, standard valving etc). However, this is a fairly theoretical advantage since cavitation is actually very rare in the other high end De Carbon dampers on the market.
3. Because it has no Boost Valve or any kind of platform setting (bar the CCDBA with the Climb Switch), and it has a very small chrome plated shaft, friction is very low.

However, there are a few things worth noting:
1. The CCDB also has highly digressive compression and rebound curves. This means lots of low speed damping with proportionally less high speed damping. Regardless of what you do, this is what you'll have to some degree. For compression it is pretty well unanimously agreed upon that a digressive damper curve is a good thing, otherwise you end up with nowhere near enough LSC and way too much HSC. However, the rebound curve involved much slower LSR than most other shocks on the market - Fox for example are pretty well dead linear across the board, Elka/MRP use a very progressive rebound curve (which I personally am quite a fan of on a DH bike), which means lots of high-speed rebound damping with fairly open and free moving low speed rebound, and BOS use various curve shapes depending on application.
2. The claim that you can't get as wide an adjustment range out of a De Carbon shock is a fallacy - the adjusters simply run smaller ports and/or heavier valving if less oil is being displaced through them. However, no other shocks on the market attempt to be the one-size-fits-all shock that the CCDB tries to be, every other shock I can think of is available with multiple tunes, and as a result the range of adjustment usually doesn't need to be as wide. Keep in mind that a wide range of adjustment typically also means a lot of the range is not usable for you, and that a narrower, entirely usable range of adjustment can be more useful.
3. The CCDB is a strictly speed-sensitive shock. On certain frames, it's absolutely brilliant, but on any frame that lacks sufficient ramp up you'll be making a lot of use of the bottom out bumper unless you spring it quite stiff. Singlepivots, Demos etc aren't an ideal match for the CCDB coil for that reason, at least in this part of the world where seriously big hits are so frequent.
4. The layout configuration of your shock (twin tube, De Carbon, inline, whatever) does not dictate the characteristics of the damping curves (and thus on-trail performance) that you get from your shock. Within reason, pretty well any curve can be generated by any style of shock - the parameters that directly control the generation of pressure and thus force within the shock (valving, port dimensions, shaft diameter, bore diameters etc) are what dictate the way the damper behaves.

What this basically brings us to is that the CCDB is a very good damper, in the right frame, but that the twin-tube design, whilst technically excellent, doesn't offer the inherent and noticeable benefits that marketing departments would have you believe. Real world performance in modern DH shocks is primarily determined by the actual damping curve that the damper is generating, and as mentioned before, that isn't directly related to the layout of the damper. As with all things suspension, the devil is in the details - but details are very, very hard to market!

May 31, 2014, 1:37 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: April 16, 2014
Understanding Suspension: Cavitation

thanks for the great information, very interesting to read!

please could you give a layman's explanation of the difference between 'de carbon' type rear shocks (i.e. most of the shocks on the market) and the Ohlins technology 'double barrel' used in the Cane Creek DB mountain bike shocks?

Are you looking to understand the physical differences in layout/function, the conceptual differences, or how the two affect real world performance? Because the first one is simple, the second one is a longer explanation, the third is a long, long discussion with a lot of background knowledge required to fully understand.

May 29, 2014, 7:25 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: April 16, 2014
Charger damper for BoXXer

If you only have the boxxer RC, do you have to buy the solo-air cartridge as well or am I just mixing up marketing buzz words?

Nope, you can stick with your coil spring (in fact unless weight is a concern, the coil spring will perform better than the air) and just install the damper in place of the Mission/Motion Control damper. The spring is in the left leg (as viewed by the rider), damper in the right leg.

For those interested in upgrading though, Avalanche also do a very nice Boxxer cartridge too for about the same price, worth checking out. It's open bath, which compared to the Charger damper has the upside of less to go wrong, more oil to lubricate the fork and longer service intervals, but with the downside of more weight and the potential for aeration of your damper oil. We aren't affiliated with Avalanche in any way btw, just suspension nerds appreciating good work :)

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