Kram profile

So who is saying this is all good because he's a white guy? Where?

They are calling it a terror attack in the media. They are reporting it to be a white guy. No one is saying it's all good.

It's just another example of an 'ism' wreaking havoc. In this case it seems to be of the national kind.

Do you know any Muslims?

Yes, and I know plenty of Christians. I oppose all religions. Religions are a threat to secularism and western values.

I am not opposed to immigration. I am not opposed to Muslim immigration. Immigration is a problem when it happens too quickly and the immigrants don't integrate into their new country's culture. Doesn't matter where you are from or what you believe. I don't think we have a problem in Canada. I do think they have a huge problem in Europe, and I think that there are lessons to be learned there. I do think that current policy in Canada should be scrutinized and honest discussion should be had in light of the failures in Europe.

How about you Yellowdog. Do you think the European immigration crisis is mislabeled as a crisis? Do you think Christianity and Islam are on the same footing? Do you think shark attacks are more relevant than rapidly rising rates of Islamist attacks in western countries? Do you think that having a discussion about it is racist? Do you think Islam should be immune from criticism?

EDIT: What was the purpose of your comment? What point did I make that you take issue with? Do you have a problem with the data sources I provided?

Absolutely. Both religions favour exclusiveness, a life after death either in heaven or hell depending on your deeds or sins, both have prophets as a central part of their beliefs and both support violence against persons of other faith.

Just read the Koran and the New Testament which is way more than the writings of Matthew and the others.

I have never done anything but argue Christianity has been as bad or worse than Islam. My argument is that Christianity has by and large lost its power to secularism. Even the Pope is secularizing his views at a rapid rate in an attempt to stay relevant. Christian numbers are are massive decline, while Islam is in rapid incline. Data is your friend.

And Kram, I think that closing the borders and spending more money on surveillance, border patrols and security instead of education and aid is not going to work, no matter how much the European populists and fear-mongers believe. A higher wall has never worked. Not once.

Never said anything about surveillance, border patrols, building walls etc. Every country has an immigration policy. That policy affects… immigration. That policy has had a huge effect in Europe. Even Angela Merkel is admitting the folly of loose policy. Do you deny the link between immigration policy and the people that end up within your borders? Do you not agree that the preservation of a country's culture is dependent upon the pace of immigration being consistent with the pace at which those immigrants can assimilate into that culture?

Most people from Europe who support IS and go to Syria to slaughter other muslims are actually Europeans or converts.

A perfect example of the problem being the doctrine and not a race. This supports my argument. Islam is a not a race; it's terrible ideas that liberals have made it a phobia to criticize.

I think your solution or approach is too simplistic.

What solution have I tried to present? So far this conversation is all about trying to come to an agreement that the doctrine of Islam is the problem, and that the threat is real and rising, and that it is in contrast to Christianity where the threat has fallen to being of almost no threat and continues to lose power at a fast rate. I provide data, and you guys just say 'no'. Hard to have a conversation like that.

Here's more data…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_January_2017

More than 140 acts of terror in the first 30 days in 2017. Likely another 5-10 will be added tonight. A quick scan reveals Quebec shooting, IRA and perhaps 3 or 4 others unrelated to Islam. Most likely none related to Christianity.

More data
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/12/upshot/big-drop-in-share-of-americans-calling-themselves-christian.html?_r=0

5 million less Christian in US from 2007 to 2014. Google reveals this trend is global, and suggest in 20-30 churches will be empty.

On the contrary, Muslims are increasing faster than world population
http://freebeacon.com/issues/muslim-population-increasing-faster-than-entire-world-population/

Now, if I lived in a completely secular country and Christians were on crusades, increasing in numbers fast and killing people who don't submit to Jesus, I would be calling for our government to make sure our immigration policy was consistent with keeping the country secular. This is not about race, and it's only about Islam as a reflection of the current state of affairs. Islam is the greatest threat to secularism and western values, which I am not ashamed to want to defend. I believe in the right to believe what you want, but when a group of people (dissociated to a specific race) basically declares war on your culture, openly admits they are going to try and breed you out of existence, follows through with those threats at an alarming rate, I feel it's foolish to ignore it. I don't know the full solution, but it's clear even to those that made the policy, that open borders is failing Europe and they are now trying to clean up the mess. Current policy is at risk of making countries like France and Britain majority Islam in our lifetime. Take a look at existing majority Muslim countries and tell me if you think it's wrong to want to make damn sure that it doesn't happen in your own country.

And just to be clear, Trump is an idiot and handled this about as poorly as could have been done.

I am suggesting "Christians" are affecting my life far more negatively right now than muslims.

Muslims only exist through LED panels.

"Christians" make policy that creates more terrorists. That is bad.

We only have the option to elect "Christians".

"Christians" really aren't that different from muslims though, so I don't see what all the fuss is about.

American Christianity is.

Given that I don't want to spend too much time on this, I'll just leave this here, and note that I'm at risk of seeming to be a Sam Harris fanboy. I'll also add that this doesn't go into enough depth to show the degree to which I feel I have the basis to be in disagreement with you, but this is a reasonable start…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxYP0PRXDWA

I'll add that I do agree that Christianity probably has more easily identifiable negative influences on your life at this point, but I'd say that in Britain, France or Germany that this is not the case. I think I have good grounds to believe that opening borders in Europe has caused serious negative outcomes, and that continuing this policy poses a grave threat to western culture that Christianity simply no longer has the power to do. Reformation in Christianity is so far underway that their influence and threat to secular values is in rapid decline. In contrast I'll stand by my argument that the opposite is true for Islam. I don't think it's irrational to want to do things differently to the way Europe has for the last few years. Hugs and kisses for all? It's not working out well over there, and I refer you back to the quote from ISIS as to why they fight us for clues as to why.

Not sure what you're missing when you say Christians aren't that different from Muslims. If you were to burn both a Quaran and a bible, and draw a cartoon mocking Jesus and Mohammed and post it on Youtube, do you really believe the response from both religious affiliates would be equal? This has already been tested by Charlie Hebdo.

I totally just said that. And I mean it.

The Democrats and Republicans are in business to make us scared.

Where am I wrong?

Let me preface with "I think Trump's policy is at best flawed and at worst a grave threat".

Are you suggesting that Islam does not pose a threat to anyone? How about women? Other Muslims? Freedom of speech, which is the single most important value in western culture? Have you seen what is happening in Europe?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_2016

I can replace every implication of muslim in the sentence above and replace it with christian and can still be in agreement with you[1].

[1] - United States of America, 2017

Do you really think that Christianity in 2017 is on equal footing as Islam? Really?? I'll give you that they were just as bad, or worse in recent history but that is what you think in the modern world right now?

And it's also a shame more people die from shark attacks every year yet that isn't a major platform item for most politician's.

Did you really just say that? You can do better.

I have always agreed with Harris's stance on terrorism and Islam, although I think the focus on border security is foolish when the threat is an ideology and the perpetrators can get their ideas and influence over the internet. Unfortunately, the most effective way to stop domestic terrorists is to increase surveillance, which is also deemed the work of fascists.

Agreed. The nonsense at the border won't achieve much. Although I do wonder if it was done simply to provoke attacks to justify further action.

Great vid you posted. I believe it's the failure of the left to admit the link between ideologies and action that has brought this upon themselves.

It's not that Islam is historically so special as to be singled out, it's that it is at a point in the timeline where it poses the greatest threat. 300 years ago we'd be having the same discussion about Christianity. It does boggle my mind that religion is not behind us by now, and I do hope humanity will overcome the delusion at some point. In the meantime there's no getting around the fact that there is one religion that stands ahead of the others when it comes to being a threat to logic and reason, human/women's rights and western culture, than the one who has unabashedly declared war on all of the above. Christianity has thankfully lost its power, and sitting around singing kumbaya and proclaiming 'Islamaphobe' when anyone criticizes terrible ideas is how you end up with Trump in power. Would have been so easy for the left to just admit there is a problem, rather than have Obama stand up the day after the Orlando shooting and proclaim "Islamist terrorism has less to do with Islam than any other religion", when it was an Orlando mosque preaching to 'out of compassion, kill the gays now'. Talk about having your head so far up your ass you can't breath.

ISIS was so sick of hearing the rhetoric that it's the west's fault for oppressing those nations, they wanted to set the record straight. Again, democrats just needed to admit what we already knew.
"The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam. Even if you were to pay jizyah [tax for infidels] and live under the authority of Islam in humiliation, we would continue to hate you."

So, as Frum noted, if you don't take care of what needs taking care of, you'll get some crackpot taking a swing at it. What a shit show this is going to be.

Fascism. I warned of this some time ago and you mocked me. Remember that.

“When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders, then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won’t do.” David Frum

A thought to ponder.

Found within other well reasoned arguments here (unsupportive of Trumps actions)… https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/a-few-thoughts-on-the-muslim-ban

Cant believe none of yall are talking bout it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m46Z0-HXySo

I had totally written these guys off after Justice. But this song actually has a lot of what I loved about them in it, and not very much of what I hate about them now. Only song of theirs since Justice I can actually turn up and totally enjoy.

Rent may have little to do with cost, but seeing as the owner must pay those taxes the rent they receive will go to the taxman before anything else. Obviously, this is all academic as the rent actually goes straight to the owner and money is fluid, but I think we can safely say that renters contribute to property taxes and therefore to education.

Hence why 'I agree in principle' ;)