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EcoRiva's posts

115 posts found

Nov. 27, 2015, 9:55 p.m.
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Joined: Oct. 7, 2006
This is why we should oppose electric bikes

so 100 posts since 2006 and now the leading authority on e-bikes? i smell double account..

Ha! No double account, and no expert on ebikes (I'm just posting too much). I do know about a lot of things that relate to the "ebike debate" though. (Law, government administration and regulation)

100 posts - I never planned to get that far. Just started when a few issues troubled me. Well, I will aim for 200 posts by 2024, so look out.

Nov. 27, 2015, 4:53 p.m.
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Joined: Oct. 7, 2006
This is why we should oppose electric bikes

I wonder what an ebike race/competition would be like. And, would they need equipment standards, like those applied in auto racing, so its all apples racing apples? Or would it be like enduro, except the climbs would no longer have anything to do with it? That would be like mountain bike stage racing with shuttles to each start gate.

Europe has so many trail types overlaid on a fairly dense network of roads of different types, that I can see ebikes fitting in without impacting mountain bike territory (for the most part). Our situation is quite different. Maybe ebikes could take over the mass of old logging roads.

Nov. 27, 2015, 1:02 p.m.
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Joined: Oct. 7, 2006
Burnaby Mountain 2015

What new trail EcoRiva? The new climber?

Yes, I think that is how many people refer to it. The names are Sidewinder and Sidebandit.

Nov. 27, 2015, 1:32 a.m.
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Joined: Oct. 7, 2006
Black Friday - searching for a cycling computer (with gps)

What are your make or break features? I have gone minimalistic with a Lezyne Mini. It generates all the important data. The main restriction is no fancy stuff (maps and graphs) until I get back to my computer. But for me, I prefer the tiny 1.25" x 2" size. Two slightly larger versions (Power and Super models) add more metrics and operate (wireless) with your smartphone. They all pick up satelites quickly, have prooved very acurate and have good battery life (from 10 to 22 hours operation, and 100 to 400 hours of data storage).

Its definitely a different approach than the bigger Garmins, but at $130.00, maybe worth a look. Solid, well thought out units.

Nov. 26, 2015, 4:11 p.m.
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Joined: Oct. 7, 2006
Burnaby Mountain 2015

WTF? Anyone else find it funny that someone has blown the new trails clean?

I'll assume the company that built them has a maintenance period they are responsible for. But walking along with a gas blower? Hmmm.

Nov. 26, 2015, 3:39 p.m.
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Joined: Oct. 7, 2006
This is why we should oppose electric bikes

Sounds about right, but I bet, like here, those voices will gradually lose out to more reasonable one's.

And yes, I think Ontario might be the worst case for access to Crown Land. There is lots but its many hours away from the south west (eastern Great Lakes) and only a bit closer to south east (Ottawa area). I can also understand that the east might be somewhat behind us regarding the general development of mountain biking. While we have acheived critical mass, they might still be facing the Hostile Old Hikers Associations. These might also be the conditions under which some people would want to push ebiking into the mountain biking category. I think they will lose, even if they sway some people in the short term.

Actually, I think that that is an important point for us all to keep in mind: this is and has always been a long term game. I won't be panicking until I see our sport under attack and losing out over several years. I will be fighting for it before then, but not panicking. We need to fight for it even when it is doing well: with constant representation.

Nov. 25, 2015, 8:53 p.m.
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Joined: Oct. 7, 2006
This is why we should oppose electric bikes

I'm actually more worried about stravassholes cutting corners than motorized bike riders.

Interesting. Stravassholes - yet another special interest group. I have also experienced more dirtbikes motoring on the trails than anything else. I've seen a couple of ebikes, but I've seen many motorbikes in the Panorama area, The Woodlot and further up the valley. One day there was a dad using a mini-moto to tow his son (maybe 13 yrs old) back up the main Woodlot climb - all afternoon. It's all out there. Don't forget the naked hiker movement!

Nov. 25, 2015, 6:51 p.m.
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Joined: Oct. 7, 2006
This is why we should oppose electric bikes

Different yes. However land ownership and access for MTB trails varies greatly in Canada. Some areas like BC have huge areas of Crown land that is available. While other areas like Ontario do not have that so it is completely different. But as I have found out from attending a few meetings when public input is asked…it is amazing how attentive those who can cause us access issues note happenings else where.

I agree. The population centres of most provinces have little local wilderness, and equally so regarding large chunks of Crown land. And obviously the state of mountain biking there reflects this.

I have also noticed that the vocal opposition has always tried to focus the debate on the happenings (in other regions, even world wide) that back their opinions. From my experience, these are people who stew in their anger about what they think they don't like. I think it becomes like a hobby for them and they spend a lot of effort looking for whatever they think helps make their case. It is amazing. But they don't win much. Every politician, official, bureaucrat, manager all know these kind of people: they are vocal and over represent at public forums. After-all, they show up everywhere, complaining about change related to everything that happens in our changing world. Unknown to them, their overextended behaviour actually undermines them. Those exercising power, those they try to convince, acknowledge their point, but then largely tune them out.

Nov. 25, 2015, 1:22 p.m.
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Joined: Oct. 7, 2006
This is why we should oppose electric bikes

I was 4 glasses of wine in when I posted that, and it almost made sense! That's a first!

Well, in the sum, I think it worked for you. The fact that signs are popping up indicates someone is aware of the issue and is taken reasonable first steps. Can you tell who posted them? Were the signs official?

Nov. 24, 2015, 10:04 p.m.
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Joined: Oct. 7, 2006
to Oldfart

I forgot the positive part Oldfart. I actually do appreciate what you have said. I don't agree (as per above) but I also don't rule such negative possibilites out either. For myself, I will keep these thoughts somewhere in the background - but close enough to use them to recognize and quickly get on top of things if the do go haywire wrong. I would be stupid to do otherwise, so thanks.

Nov. 24, 2015, 9:28 p.m.
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Joined: Oct. 7, 2006
This is why we should oppose electric bikes

Read this months issue of Bike for perspective on the issues the US has with bikes being banned from wilderness areas. Also being banned from areas that might be proposed as designated wilderness. I see mountainbikes as being barely accepted as a human powered means of getting out there. The Monica Cravers of the world disagree and she is not alone. The North Shore is immensely popular for riding now and confrontations are making news. We have trails designated hiking only and even some that are mountain bike only and many that are mtb primary. But we share that space. At the moment local governments are on board with riding their but what if Ernie Crist (RIP) or someone like him was a local mayor? Or someone on the fence until people start riding uphill fast on e-bikes? Certainly today's e-bikes are not exceedingly fast but mark my word, if they get a toe hold and there is money to be made, power outputs will climb. On road e-bikes are limited in speed and power but not off road as far as I know and they are easily modified to up the juice. That is the point a I was making when I started this thread, e-bikes will become more powerful in short order. That's how marketing stuff works. We had a wee issue in Whistler this summer. On some really easy trails in Cheakamus. Line of sight is not great in places and people don't see each other and confrontations happen and someone writes to council and suggests that bikes be banned and councils response sounds like that is being given serious consideration. Throw in motorized e-bikes and now uphills are also taken too fast and we will all be coloured by the same brush. Face it, mountain biking has a reputation as being full of young male freaks jumping whipping roosting which does not mix with hiking very well. Add in powered bikes and that does not bode well for advocacy.

I cannot believe the fear and fear-mongering on display here. “I see mountainbikes as being barely accepted as a human powered means of getting out there.” Come off it. Really. Mountain bikes are all over the place: literally on the roads and trails, and figuratively in the public consciousness, industry, imagery, and press. Any single issue of any Mtb Magazine illustrates how fully accepted the whole thing is, and how its continuing to grow in popularity and expand into more and more places. There will always be issues. Mountain biking may be removed from some trails where it is now permitted. But there seems to be a never ending number of new trails. The setbacks are not indicative of some apocalypse coming, in which our sport is radically curtailed or stomped out of existence.

Further, the US situation doesn’t translate well to us and never has. The legal structure of land ownership there is very different from here.

Yes, the “Monica Cravers [are] not alone.” So? You seem so scared of any vocal/forcefull opposition. These voices are shrinking, and have been for a long time. Is your fear of them really in correct proportion. Do you not realize how strong the voices of mountain biker’s are? It’s just possible that its the other side that should be scared.

And what about a bad “local mayor.” And, council’s always respond that they are giving “it” serious consideration. It is part of their job to the extent that “serious consideration” is a typical (even used in legal documentation) action descriptor. Further, the process from that to taking any kind of action is a long road full of consultation (i.e., all voices).

And lastly I must comment on this one too. “Face it, mountain biking has a reputation as being full of young male freaks jumping whipping roosting which does not mix with hiking very well.” With all due respect, that reputation has been succeeded by one which is more likely to be full of affluent multi-cross-sectional (multiple ages, sexes, families, incomes) riders on $500.00 to $10,000.00 machines. Even the freaks you mention have grown up, and likely have matured points of view. I bet they still ride like hell, but I bet its on better suspension. And they might even be excited about the kid that's on the way. Who knows.

Our sport did have a difficult birth itself. But, in the big picture, it has never ceased to get better every year. Have some optimism Oldfart.

Nov. 23, 2015, 9:10 p.m.
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Joined: Oct. 7, 2006
This is why we should oppose electric bikes

I really hope they aren't disruptive, but you know who will get thrown under the bus with them if they are? non-motorized mtb's. lots of people not involved in advocacy seem to like to tell those that are how it will be, and what we should do, I'd like e-bike aficionados to form their own groups and start working with all the other user groups to convince us that they won't be a problem, not going to take their word for it and end up being responsible for cleaning up the mess. I'm not against motorized recreation where it's allowed, but I firmly disagree with it being allowed everywhere, especially on non-motorized trail systems. Mountain bikes aren't allowed everywhere, and neither should motorized users.

Oh, and as for advocacy, don't assume people you don't operate with don't advocate. The world is complicated. Some people are on the inside (so to speak) and might exercise power and persuasion that you will never hear about. On the outside, I don't tell people what to think or how it will be, I just tell you what I am thinking.

Nov. 23, 2015, 9:04 p.m.
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Joined: Oct. 7, 2006
This is why we should oppose electric bikes

I really hope they aren't disruptive, but you know who will get thrown under the bus with them if they are? non-motorized mtb's. lots of people not involved in advocacy seem to like to tell those that are how it will be, and what we should do, I'd like e-bike aficionados to form their own groups and start working with all the other user groups to convince us that they won't be a problem, not going to take their word for it and end up being responsible for cleaning up the mess. I'm not against motorized recreation where it's allowed, but I firmly disagree with it being allowed everywhere, especially on non-motorized trail systems. Mountain bikes aren't allowed everywhere, and neither should motorized users.

I'm not sure if you are disagreeing with me, but I agree with you except for one thing: I don't agree that we will get thrown under the bus with ebikes: it's a lot more complicated and the powers that throw people under these buses have a much better understanding of it all. I don't think highly of a lot of how our municipal governments operate, but they know the difference between a mountainbike and an ebike and they know their constituants, who by and large look favorably upon our activity.

As for DemonMike's points, I haven't even given a thought to Electric Dirt bikes. Keeping them off the trails better be a no brainer or its time to picket.

Nov. 23, 2015, 2:16 p.m.
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Joined: Oct. 7, 2006
This is why we should oppose electric bikes

Mountain bike advocates have been successful in getting more trail access over the past decades because we were successful at differentiating ourselves (rightly) from motorized users, and many of us who fought that very hard battle are loathe at the suggestion that now we have to advocate on behalf of them…and make no mistake, they do have the potential to threaten hard fought access and relationships with other non-motorized user groups.

Thanks to everyone who "fought the very hard battle." I understand you would loath advocating "on behalf of them." I would loath that as well. But, I don't see anyone pushing such a thing. I politely disagree. That battle is very largely over in terms of the gains made, and the threats to "hard fought access" is simply not true. The regulating authorities (and I know this from the inside) know that an e-mountainbike is not equivalent to a pedal mountain bike, which results in the fact that they would require specific regulations.

My apologies FlipFantasia, I hear what your saying, but I also hear too much fear mongering which is not a good basis from which to proceed. Perceived threats and attachments to old fights just don't help. They don't help to build us something to advocate.

Nov. 23, 2015, 1:43 a.m.
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Joined: Oct. 7, 2006
This is why we should oppose electric bikes

yellowdogx says: "Mountain bikers have had to work hard to gain any footing with hikers, land owners, etc." True. But I find it hard to buy this anymore. Mountainbiking is solidly established and the authorities are too deep into it to do anything but help make it all work across all of the user groups.

and also: "Every trail is now a shuttle trail. How many laps could the average rider pull off slowly pedaling the way up mountain hiway vs. a twist of the throttle? Trails like Fromme so close to a major metropoitan area like Vancouver are going to take shit kicking if the majority of riders are someday on e-bikes." Again, True. Throttles would accellerate this, but generally this doesn't ring true to me anymore either. The growing number of regular mountain bikers blows shuttling and ebikes out of the water.

Tashi's point is bang on: "Trails and management have had to adapt, 20 years ago I never would have thought my dirtbag sport would be as organized, legimitized and managed as it is now. I wouldn't be too surprised if busy areas end up with a mix of e-moto friendly and mtb only trails."

The cat's out of the bag. The industry is pushing/developing ebikes and who knows what it will all come to. But it started a long time before this 'latest' development . . . right at the very beginning. The first mountain biker couldn't wait to tell his buddies and get them out there. The entire mountain bike industry (and a large chunk of the ridership) has inherently and overtly focused on "growing the sport." More trails, but more importantly, More riders able to ride More terrain. Let's look in the mirror. We are consuming the trails. Increasing our fitness, buying a new bike, improving our skills, getting friends into the sport, driving to hell and back to find new trailheads, buying guidebooks, and on, and on, and on - this is what will wipe our beloved trails off the mountainside. Tashi's right. Trails are changing, how they are managed is changing, the place of our sport in the bigger picture continues to change, the economics are evolving, the tools are morphing, and the busy areas will continue to need everyone's close attention. There will be new trails and older trails will no doubt change. User groups may also change. Think about networks of handicapped double track designed to be as fun/challenging as any of our singletrack. Maybe ebike trails (I hope not, and I doubt it).

The point is not to be happy and let it all go to hell. The point is to work rationally to make it all work as best as possible, and not to let emotion rule. I really don't want ebikes on our trails. But I also know, in spite of any efforts I might make, I might lose this one. Maybe when I am 70 I will have even changed my mind (though I doubt it).

I just read Mic's post. Agree or disagree, its a bit of reason/thought that presents some points to think about. He even pushed the emotion driven fear mongering (the old hiker vs mtb'er debate) to the wayside. And he's right: we have to deal with ebikes; we can reject them or work them in, but biting a fishing hook set by norona is to be distracted. As for the points made by grumpy builder: you are the representative of common sense mountain bikers, not guys like norona. Sooth your fear. If hundreds of norona-posts become the norm, then you can worry (maybe). But, look into the mirror: you are not so different if you would like to expand our territory into BCParks. Like I said, if we all get in there it will be us destroying the trails. Ebikes might need limits, but mountainbikers need them too.

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