wingelabs profile

Posted by: Ride.DMC

... I was expecting my seat tub angle to steepen up a little bit with the angle set installed and was kind of surprised to see no change. I think it may be more of an issue with my phone not being the most accurate measuring device, or something like that - because it makes sense that it would get slightly steeper. Maybe not 2 degrees, but something.

I also put a -2° Works Angleset on my 2019 Process. Mine is an XL 29, so my numbers will be slightly different than yours. But I built a model in CAD to fully examine what was going to change as a result of the angle set (and bumping the fork up to 170), so I can help explain what's going on here.

The first thing to note is that an angle set doesn't change the "Head Tube Angle" as stated in a static geometry chart, it changes the angle that the fork goes through the headtube, which in turn drives a bunch of other changes.

We can look at this in three states.

State 1: Stock Geometry

Your static geometry is (approximately within tolerances) equal to what the manufacturer puts on their geo chart

State 2: You clamp your bike as it stands in State 1 and install a -2° Angle Set. Your geometry is now as follows

Head Tube Angle: -2° Relative to stock (64° in this case)

Wheel base: increases, but your front wheel no longer touches the ground ( Your fork length hasn't changed, but you've angled the fork outwards)

Everything else: no change (but again, your front wheel is floating in the air)

State 3: You unclamp your bike from State 2 and place both wheel on the ground (The bike rotates around the rear axle until the front wheel touches the ground)

State 3 Relative to State 2:

Head Angle: Steepens slightly

Seat Tube Angle: Steepens Slightly

Wheelbase: Decreases Slightly

BB Height: Lowers

Reach: Increases slightly

Stack: Lowers Slightly

State 3 Geo Static Chart (for XL Process 29 with -2° Works Angle Set, 160mm Fork, 51mm Offset)

Head Angle: 64.39° (from 66°)

Seat Angle: 76.16 (from 75.7°)

Wheel Base: 1276.69 (from 1258)

BB Height: 343.12 (from 346)

Reach: 511.87 (from 510)

Stack: 625.35 (from 630)

Alot of these angular changes are too small for your iPhone to measure well, especially when you have to deal with buttons making the sides not flat. (Also all these numbers are basically theoretical, the two decimal places are not particularly useful, and there will be tolerances etc. so they're not exactly representative of a given real bike)

This is where your "effective reach" measurement comes into play, your steerer tube is now more angled back towards you, so your handlebars have moved back because they're held in a stem, not located at a theoretical point, which is why your "effective reach" is reduced. And as you said, stem spacers now have an increased effect on your effective reach, because your fork is intersecting your frame at a greater angle.

What I think you should be looking at is your hand position relative to your BB, in the horizontal and vertical directions. You can then use a combination of handlebars, stems, and spacers to place your hands where you need them relative the BB, which may be in a different place than you had them before, as your front wheel is now farther away

Posted by: D_C_

Pretty lame, a few days have gone by and I have still not heard back. They have some okay prices, but I guess it’s buyer beware…

My advice is to keep pushing them for a full refund of what you’ve paid (including shipping and duty), or the correct product. 

I had them send me a different compound tire than what I’d ordered. Their initial offer was either a partial refund and a credit, or returning it to them for full refund. When I pointed out that their RMA form required me to organize my own shipping and didn’t have any way for me to get a refund for the shipping and duties I’d already paid, they fully refunded the tire and shipping and let me keep the tire as it wasn’t going to be worth it to return. There were a couple days delay though for them offering me that.

I'm glad you're getting closer to a setup that works!

Are you sure you've got a C1 airspring in there? Those numbers are around what I'd expect for the B1 airshaft, but as you said, If it works it work.

Also important to check the pressure with the fork fully extended. Compress the fork a little and then lift it off the ground so that you have a reliable baseline.

LSR: -3 also doesn't sound too far out based on the Rockshox and other's recommendations. It may be worth considering stiffening the HSR shim stack if you'd like to open the LSR back up. The Push recommended tunes only require adding a couple shims in, if you'd like to dig yourself into a deeper rabbit hole.

The Norco Ride Aligned setup guide can also be helpful for getting your fork setup in the right ball park, 2020 Sight for 160mm B1 setup, 2021 for 160mm C1 setup. (although your numbers line up with the B1 setup)

I agree with D_C_ I was going to suggest the B1 spring as well.

Especially if you're feeling like you're losing small bump sensitivity with the air pressure you need to keep the front end at the height you want.

I'd recommend tuning by feel, rather than the RS recommendations with the B1, you'll probably end up at a higher pressure than they suggest. I setup my fork to provide the support and dynamic geometry I want/need without trying to ensure I use full travel, I don't think I've ever bottomed out my with the pressure I'm running. If that would be a problem for you, you could also try using a 170mm B1 air spring and set it up so you end up using ~160mm of travel. Really once you have the B1 sealhead and shaft nut you'll be able to swap them out on to either your 170mm or 160mm shaft.

I think that your general idea that you need to set up the Lyrik to be supported by the air spring instead of the damper, tracks with my experience. Setting up with more air and less damping or less air and more damping are both valid setup methods, and just come down to preference. However with more air less damping, you do need to pay much closer attention to the air pressure (again, digital pumps are your friend here). I think try to get the support you need from the air spring first and then decide if you want to upgrade the damper to get the final adjustments. 

You didn't specify how you've got your damper setup currently, but the HSC and LSC circuits are related*, so if you're trying to run HSC wide open with LSC fully closed, the oil will start opening the HSC circuit more often which can make the ride weird/harsh/unsupportive. 

*the amount that this effect becomes an issue will be different depending on which damper you have, to my knowledge, the C2.1 RC2 damper only has 5 clicks of HSC so if may not be possible to create a bad setup with the limited adjustment available, but it is definitely possible to setup the HC97 wrong in this way

I have a 2019 Lyrik RC 170mm B1 Debonair 51mm offset with an HC97. I have complicated feelings about it tbh, I've gone through a lot of different configurations with it and I can't say I've ever been fully satisfied with the performance, but I don't think that the HC97 is necessarily the problem. My setup is as follows:

~190lb with gear

2019 Kona Process XL w/ -2° Angleset, Cascade Link, Super Deluxe MegNeg w/ Tractive Tune

Static Geo: HA: 63.99°, FC: 857mm, RC: 424mm 

Fork Setup:

Spring: 170mm B1 Debonair, 97.5-99.5 psi (depending on terrain), ~0.5 spacer (cut in half, so difficult to know the exact volume)

Damper (all counted from fully closed CW): Oil: Motorex Racing Fork Oil 2.5W, LSC: -22, HSC: -15, LSR: -9, HSR: RP3 shimstack (My damper is a Charger 2, not a 2.1)

I have questions about your setup, but I think that if your only issue with your Lyrik is that you'd like more compression damping range, the HC97 will probably give you that. Whether that solves your problem is a different question imo.

Honestly it does sounds like you just didn't have enough air in the fork for the change in travel, but if you (or anyone else) is interested in getting into details:

- what settings are you running/what's your weight with gear?

- What kind of shock pump are you using? Tuning a modern fork (or air shock) absolutely requires a digital pump, they look like they're from the same factory, so buy the cheapest one you can find

Can you confirm whether you have a Charger 2 (black damper sealhead) or Charger 2.1 (red damper sealhead) damper, they (apparently) made changes to the LSC circuit in the C2.1 which allowed it to actually close (you can check using your serial number on the Rockshox Trailhead webpage, also provides you with their recommended air pressure (for B1 is too soft, for C1 may be closer to correct) and rebound damping, but is setup for whatever length spring your serial number had originally, so you may have to input your model manually)

Has anyone actually had Fluid Function retune the compression side of a Charger 2/2.1 damper, especially the RC2? It doesn't seem like it lends itself well to tuning, what with the big preload spring on the HSC shimstack, and making changes to the LSC would require custom parts

Posted by: T-mack

So I finally got fed up and dealt with my issue. I'm running Shigura with XT levers, MT5 calipers. I decided to take my masters apart and figure out exactly causes the wander. The system is as simple as possible IMO, a rod pushes a piston that pushes the fluid so wtf could it be? I wish I took pictures but I didn't so it is what it is. The problem with Shimano brakes is that the piston gets filthy dirty when you push the shitty fluid up from the caliper during a bleed, so the Marsh gravity bleed technique is your best bet. Even after clean fluid was filling up my bleed cup, the system was still 'sticky' because the piston o-rings were so dirty. The wander is from the piston not retracting all the way fast enough so when you grab the lever again there's already fluid in the system and you're just introducing more. The second problem is the pin that the lever rotates on is press fit into the plastic 'cams' and rotates inside. My pin and plastic were worn so bad I almost threw the levers away. All I did was rotate the pin 180 degrees to take up some of the slack when I put back together. SRAM uses bearings on their higher end brakes which gets rid of this issue. So my advice is to gravity bleed always and keep your levers as clean as possible at all times so mud and gunk doesn't get in there and make the wearing issue on the pin even worse.

Also it was interesting seeing how the 'Free Stroke' screw actually works. It just pushes on a piece of plastic that pushes the piston in, pretty simple, when you unscrew it the piston comes out which is how the system should be bled. Cheers.

I agree with your description of the "pumping up" mechanism, this get worse at lower temperatures, the oil becomes more viscous and the seals probably harden slightly.

I personally haven't seen excessive wear on the lever axle bushings or axle, definitely develops some play over time though, it would be nice to have the option to replace those bushing though. You did take the Lever Axle Set Screw Out right?

It would be interesting to see an oil analysis of what's actually in the black oil, the aluminum particle theory makes sense, but the oil in the caliper is always so much worse than the in the master cylinder/hose, I always assumed that some brake dust was being pull through the seals when the pistons retract in the caliper and/or the heat from braking has some sort of effect on the additives in the oil.

Posted by: andy-eunson

Good to know. I always wondered how the pad contact adjust worked. I always turn it out until the lever stops moving then gravity bleed. Seems to work. I also will do a burp whenever the brake starts feeling like the lever is getting too close. 

I’ve read somewhere some time ago that many modern brakes don’t have a lot of oil volume so when pad wear and disc wear add up the lever gets too close. Not enough oil volume to account for a lot of wear. What does the hive mind think?

I've always burped the levers several times over the life of a pad. I figured there is technically enough oil but would bet that if you pulled the levers while the bike is upside-down with the pads 75% worn, you would introduce air into the lines. 

Although, maybe that doesn't actually line up with "burping". Burping does definitely improve lever feel/bite point, so either the extra oil being added into the reservoir adds weight to fill the master cylinder piston slightly more, or air is introduced to the master cylinder as the pads wear: maybe via air and oil mixing due to vibration during riding and then being pulled into the master cylinder?

I've found that there is some degree of venting/weepage in the lever from every shimano brake I've owned. I think this is through the reservoir vent, but could also be from the master cylinder seals.

I also loosen off the contact adjust screw for full bleeds, but I turn it in before closing the reservoir, otherwise, the excess fluid seems to vent out of the reservoir.

I like the Marshy bleed, but I find that covering the caliper with oil ends up being a pain to clean fully, and I often end up with slight contamination that needs to be burned out of the pads.

I’d agree that the transition knob on the Assegai is noticeable and does remove the drift zone on the DHF when the tire is partially leaned over. If you can feel the drift, it’s a good reminder to lean the bike over more. I’ve only ridden DD and DH MaxxGrip Assegais, and I’m not going back. Although I would like to do some back to back testing with an equivalent DHF specifically for summer bike park days. I wonder sometimes if the additional knob surface/height make the Assegai a little less grippy when the tire can’t penetrate the dirt. 

I’d also agree that the Assegai isn’t a fast roller, even worse when you run two of them.

If you like the DHF there is a MaxxGrip EXO version that could be worth trying. 

I haven’t ridden true Aggressor or Dissector. But I picked up a DD Dissector that I was planning on running in the middle of summer this year in between DHR2s

You could also try running double DHFs. Not sure if that’s over kill for your riding, but I did it for years, and liked it a lot. Nice to be able to rotate tires from front to back

I also got #influenced by Mr Major...

Now that I’ve ordered my year’s worth of spares, you’re all welcome to buy from TBS again. They have most of what I needed (Shimano stuff, 12s cassettes, chains, derailleurs, pads, rotors) Their prices are higher this year though. Last year I bought finned H03Cs for $49/pair, this year they’re $54. RT86 rotors are also up in price too $59/203mm in 2019, up to $85/203mm this year. 

They also have 29” MaxxGrip DD, Assegai, DHR2... get em while they’re hot!

Did the howl start immediately after replacing the pads? or after a little bit? If it was delayed, it could be the issue described in this article:

http://blueliquidlabs.com/repairs/solving-that-brake-squeal/

I would definitely check the rotor thickness if you haven't already, also try different rotors/sizes of rotors, swap front to back etc, just to try to isolate the issue.

Also, I've found the most reliable clean method for both rotors and pads is to pour some isopropyl alcohol on them and then light it on fire and let it burn off.

I would also clean the caliper with isopropyl alcohol, someone mentioned issues with the seals, I haven't had any issues personally, but your mileage may vary. The calipers have little pockets in them which can hold mineral oil after bleeding using the Marshy method, I've found isopropyl to be a good way to ensure no oil remains.

Posted by: Taz123

Shimano AM9s for 3 seasons, they still have lots of life and I'm not easy on them.

Shimano AM9s for me too. Had my first pair for 2 seasons, retired them to commuting only because the sole wore down enough to create play and reduce release force. I bought a new pair of the same. I did replace the laces multiple times, the Salomon Quicklaces that MEC sells have worked great, only $10.

My partner's Five Ten Freerider Pros had the soles peel off as well, I was able to repair them pretty cleanly with Shoe Goo.