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whistler bike park gets a change of face

April 4, 2008, 10:08 p.m.
Posts: 14564
Joined: Dec. 16, 2003

Thanks Dude. I never plan much, just do my thing and cruise along. If you do good things, good things will happen to you. Lifestyle is where it's at.

Conrgrats!

If you do good things, good things will happen to you

and that would explain why you are where you are, and bitter little parksvilleguy is working at the IGA.

April 4, 2008, 10:09 p.m.
Posts: 798
Joined: March 22, 2007

Holy S*[HTML_REMOVED]t! $30 000K/km of trail?! So lets see…30cents for a pencil, .5cents for a sheet of paper, $10 an hour for some labour grunts…now let me get my abacus out-how much did I just make! Give me a shovel and I'll do it for $5K! Maybe I'll open my own uber consultancy firm too! Sounds like there's money to burn:flame:

Trail builders earn about twice what you think and you forgot to factor in the heavy machinery, operator, and materials costs.

I ride Bikes

April 4, 2008, 11:04 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Feb. 2, 2005

Holy S*[HTML_REMOVED]t! $30 000K/km of trail?! So lets see…30cents for a pencil, .5cents for a sheet of paper, $10 an hour for some labour grunts…now let me get my abacus out-how much did I just make! Give me a shovel and I'll do it for $5K! Maybe I'll open my own uber consultancy firm too! Sounds like there's money to burn:flame:

Says the man who never built a trail that can withstand 20,000 people riding and
skidding on.

Here I was thinking that's a lot cheaper than i thought it would be.

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"i surf because, i"m always a better person when i come in"-Andy Irons
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April 5, 2008, 7:47 a.m.
Posts: 137
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

Holy S*[HTML_REMOVED]t! $30 000K/km of trail?! So lets see…30cents for a pencil, .5cents for a sheet of paper, $10 an hour for some labour grunts…now let me get my abacus out-how much did I just make! Give me a shovel and I'll do it for $5K! Maybe I'll open my own uber consultancy firm too! Sounds like there's money to burn:flame:

worca's rate to replace trail lost to development, as in, we ask for developers to compensate at a rate of $30/m…..trail building at the acceptable standards is not cheap…..but like the people in parks that I've talked to at the municipailty have said, it's a lot cheaper than traditional recreational ammenities…..

April 5, 2008, 9:26 a.m.
Posts: 10077
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

Anyone know what it costs to develop 1km of golf course fairway?
How about 1km of paved bike path?

April 5, 2008, 10:26 a.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: May 3, 2004

Holy S*[HTML_REMOVED]t! $30 000K/km of trail?! So lets see…30cents for a pencil, .5cents for a sheet of paper, $10 an hour for some labour grunts…now let me get my abacus out-how much did I just make! Give me a shovel and I'll do it for $5K! Maybe I'll open my own uber consultancy firm too! Sounds like there's money to burn:flame:

Oh yeah? Good luck.

TomPro

April 5, 2008, 11:59 a.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Dec. 12, 2007

Holy S*[HTML_REMOVED]t! $30 000K/km of trail?! So lets see…30cents for a pencil, .5cents for a sheet of paper, $10 an hour for some labour grunts…now let me get my abacus out-how much did I just make! Give me a shovel and I'll do it for $5K! Maybe I'll open my own uber consultancy firm too! Sounds like there's money to burn:flame:

Here's a common situation in construction. Someone who can do a project right the first time might put in a bid for say $100k and some jackass will look at it and figure they can get some grunts to work at $10 per hour for a total cost of let's say $25k. $75k in savings right?

In reality it'll cost more than $125k. $25k wasted on the jackass, $100k to get the pros to finally do it right (not to mention money lost due to delays), plus additional costs to fix what the jackass screwed up.

Do it once, do it right!

April 8, 2008, 9:02 a.m.
Posts: 2502
Joined: Jan. 3, 2003

First of all, Digger did everything essentially for free. He gave his own blood and sweat to it, and I don't think anyone of us has paid him directly for the work we all enjoy.

Whistler / Blackcomb is a business; part of their business is to develop tourist attractions that draw a clientele to the resort. They have a fee to access the BP. These clients end up spending a lot of money at the resort as a result.

Like it or not, every one of us is a "tourist" contributing to the bottom line there.

And, as a result, Tom [HTML_REMOVED] his company have a right to set a fair price if a company is willing to pay that price. I assume there is a lot more included in their pricing schemes than the simplistic logic you are using. That being said, as a company, they have the right to earn as high a profit as they can.

It

***Disclaimer: this post is in no way, shape, or form intended to insult anybody, anything, any animal, any lifeform, or non lifeform, or otherwise, of any kind.

April 8, 2008, 10:31 a.m.
Posts: 2502
Joined: Jan. 3, 2003

Well, technically you're correct, but you are looking at it from a very simplistic point of view. You may have the RIGHT to question their pricing, but you are uneducated in doing so.

You know almost none of the input costs or factors. Frankly, neither do I. I judge them and WB with my wallet. If I like what they put out, I buy it. If I don't, I, you know, don't buy it. I've stated elsewhere that this season I am buying an Edge Card for the first time in 6 or 7 years instead of a full pass (essentially as long as they've had the park and season's passes available) because for me there isn[HTML_REMOVED]#8217;t enough value for me the way the park is currently configured. Maybe after seeing some new stuff up top, and a new No Joke line, I'll upgrade back to the full pass. But, you know[HTML_REMOVED]#8230;for every guy like me there are probably 50 young rippers that never see the top section, that don[HTML_REMOVED]#8217;t have two kids, responsibilities, and limited time, and do nothing but rip A-Line and the Boneyard all day. So for those guys, I bet they get great value.

This is why your opinion and mine aren't worth two cents.

Besides, why would they be in this business, shoulder all the risk, ect., if they didn't have the opportunity to realize a profit?

***Disclaimer: this post is in no way, shape, or form intended to insult anybody, anything, any animal, any lifeform, or non lifeform, or otherwise, of any kind.

April 8, 2008, 1:33 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: May 7, 2006

Conrgrats!

and that would explain why you are where you are, and bitter little parksvilleguy is working at the IGA.

He's actually like in his 20's…with checkered hair.

LMM :thepimp:

believe it or not… I read a lot. big books too.

April 8, 2008, 11:53 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Feb. 2, 2005

Ask Digger how much 1 km of trail took to build on the Shore, I thought and still think $30K was/is a lot for 1km…in fact, I can't fathom how smoothing over some dirt and digging out a few trees can cost so much…and I know that we built some great shit back in the day that's still around and it was basically with a shovel [HTML_REMOVED] rake…no, 20 000 people don't ride it but dirt is dirt. Ah…life used to be so simple. The original beauty of this sport is that it wasn't like that guy in Jerry McGuire screaming "Show me the money!"

Ask Digger how much he would charge someone to make 1km of trail that was
strong enough for 20,000 hacks to skid and something that can handle having
15-20ft of snow on it for 6+ months and that can handle the melt afterward, and
have it good enough to ride when it's wet.

See how much he would charge. See, I think it's cheap, to make what they
make for a bike park, each stunt on a particular trail has to be consistent and
don't forget that includes survey work (ever seen how much those guys make),
that includes making a topo map with all the features of the hill (major trees,
logs, rock outcrops, etc).

There's a piece of land over here, I've thought would be a great bike hill (good
location, private property, lots of trees, dry(ish). I've thought about how much
it would cost to get local contractors and "cheap" labor, etc. I think if you really
sit down and think about how much it would cost to build a commercial trail,
dealing with all the logistics, liability, mapping, planning (for fun, stability,
sustainability, etc), I think you would change your mind on how much a k of
trail should cost.

AND

When you've come to the conclusion that I have, you then understand and
appreciate what these volunteer builders have done that much more. I can
appreciate your opinion, but it's off base with reality.

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"i surf because, i"m always a better person when i come in"-Andy Irons
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April 9, 2008, 2:57 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Feb. 2, 2005

^That kind of thinking is why 1/2 of all restaurants go out of business in their
first year. That kind of thinking is why most business don't last more than a year
or two.

I'll give you a what I know example:
Tour boat, 49 passengers, two trips per day ~300 per year:
AM trip: $170.00 = $8300.00
PM trip: $120.00 = $5800.00

People look at that and think wow, they are raking it in.
They forget about all the expenses like:
One engine per year (two every two years) @ $20,000.00 per engine
Insurance @ $150,000 per year
pay roll (can't tell you but average crew makes $15 captain $22)
Office space @ ~ $15,000 per month
Office insurance @ ~ $20,000 per year
Office utilities
Boat Fuel
Dry-dock every year (~ $50,000)
General Boat maintenance ~100,000 per year
This list goes on and on. Maybe take a business course when you graduate high
school and you might get a better understanding of how business works.

People like you come out on the boat every day and say "you guys must make
good money in tips". They think if everyone gave us $1.00 each we'd walk away
with $49.00 per trip. These are the pricks that don't tip. The more businesses
I am involved with, the more I understand what it takes to make a business
succeed. I wish I would have learned that when I was 20 or 30.

PS- I know what it takes to make and keep up a trail. If you ever come out
to Kauai, pm me and I'll take you on the one and only dh trail here.

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"i surf because, i"m always a better person when i come in"-Andy Irons
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April 9, 2008, 9:36 p.m.
Posts: 15569
Joined: May 29, 2004

Don't believe the hype-you don't need excavators and a team of surveyors and all the complications to build a good trail. Think dirt-shovel-beer-ride.

I have a CWSAA book on risk management around here somewhere…I should lend it to you.

I could only imagine what it would cost to build a commercial bike trail without using a mini excavator……….

April 10, 2008, 4:56 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: May 3, 2004

Don't believe the hype-you don't need excavators and a team of surveyors and all the complications to build a good trail. Think dirt-shovel-beer-ride. And by the way, Digger's trails have stood the crowds, the snow, are rideable in the wet, and have stood the test of time thanks to good building practices and NSMBA trail days-gawd bless em both. It is a self fulfilling prophecy-if you believe it costs $30 000/km, then thats what it will cost you to build your trail in Kauai. I know you could make a great trail for a lot less.

You are right on the above points - you don't need excavators to build cool trails. You can build trails with volunteer labor and beer. Digger has built killer trails that have withstood time and elements. And yes, you could build a trail for less than $30K/km.
But, you do need excavators to build A-Line type trails, you don't need or want them for single tracks. When you build a trail for a bike park, you need to get it done in a timely fashion. You can't take 2 years to build a trail, you need that revenue when you run a business - ROI (return on investment). The only way to get that done is to pay people to come to work 40 hours a week and that costs money. Volunteer labor, as noble as it may be, is unreliable, therefore not realistic for a commercial operation. Finaly, when you build an excavated trail you need less labor but you have machine costs. When you build a single track, you have greater labor costs and no machine costs. In the end it is about the same costs for both scenarios, but you can build a lot faster with machines.
In short - back woods trail building is a bit different from commercial operation trail building.
I hope that this helps with this debate

TomPro

April 10, 2008, 9:36 p.m.
Posts: 33
Joined: Sept. 4, 2007

. You can't take 2 years to build a trail, you need that revenue when you run a business - ROI (return on investment).

so true!

I will talk about my own experience I worked in austria for wagrain mountain bike park the year of the opening.
how can you build fast without machines when you can build just during 2 months there is snow all over the place on the other time and riders at least for the last 3 months

I don't know if you did some maintenance on a trail likle Aline or even a single track like In Deep but with the amount of rider is crazy everything is destroy in about a couple of days

you can't compare shore trail to bike park trail

and well about price (vegas) you live juste next to the best place on earth for a MTbiker and you should be more than happy
some people like me can go to BC once a year or even once a life
we cme for the quality and the diversity.

I hope coming this year again but this time I will take a part ask to be a volonteer for couple of days. Probably you should try because this can show the back door of the business of trail building and this can be a pain beleive me

30k$/km i think it's fair for thr quality
in france they put that amount to build a whole bike park
there is a massive but the quality is far to be like what you can find in whistler

ride hard guys

let see you at whistler ( i cross my finger)

was in heaven last summer whistler I'll be back:france:

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