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When is drainage too effective?

April 24, 2021, 12:13 p.m.
Posts: 210
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Yep, keep the pavers in Squamish. 

I am also not talking about gold paving whole trails. Just taking extra care to sift for high impact spots like braking zones and berms.

April 24, 2021, 12:23 p.m.
Posts: 1642
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

I'm thinking steep sections into corners where even gold paving won't hold up long term - but of course that can be remedied with better trail layout. Unfortunately lots of old trails have spots where it's either a rut to bedrock or a re-route.

April 24, 2021, 12:32 p.m.
Posts: 210
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Posted by: syncro

I'm thinking steep sections into corners where even gold paving won't hold up long term - but of course that can be remedied with better trail layout. Unfortunately lots of old trails have spots where it's either a rut to bedrock or a re-route.

Have we come full circle to rock armouring?

April 24, 2021, 12:36 p.m.
Posts: 1642
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: earleb

Posted by: syncro

I'm thinking steep sections into corners where even gold paving won't hold up long term - but of course that can be remedied with better trail layout. Unfortunately lots of old trails have spots where it's either a rut to bedrock or a re-route.

Have we come full circle to rock armouring?

I think rock armouring has been overdone in places, but it's useful in certain spots. Steep doesn't have to mean eroded rut, it depends on what happens after the steep.

April 24, 2021, 10:32 p.m.
Posts: 255
Joined: March 14, 2017

riding the steep sections on Pingu is absolutely horrible with the cobblestones.  Lots of old school trails that have steeps in it seem to fair ok... just more maintenance but rider experience is way better.

April 25, 2021, 7:55 a.m.
Posts: 18074
Joined: Oct. 28, 2003

Pingu has 14,000 ride logs on Trailforks and one of the steepest sanctioned mainline, most shuttled sections of dirt on Seymour.  Also built decades ago without knowledge of water management.  

John Deer has 17,000 ride logs for popularity comparison, but it pales in steepness.  Only the drop into the valley compares, but it has no need for brakes as the runout is steep uphill to stepup jump.

Dirty Diapers which I compare in steepness in a few spots, and is “oldschool” has 60.  Only 60!

I’m not disagreeing with you that rider experience on Pingu’s heavy braking zone is terrible, but at least “they” don't have to throw dirt on it monthly to keep it ridable.   I expect the Pingu steeps would have been closed and rerouted as non-sustainable by the land manager and maintainer if not for the rock armours durability.   Its all a careful tradeoff.  

.

April 25, 2021, 8:05 a.m.
Posts: 18074
Joined: Oct. 28, 2003

Grannies - only 509 ride-logs. Thats old-school sustainable by design at its best.


 Last edited by: heckler on April 25, 2021, 8:06 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
April 25, 2021, 8:07 a.m.
Posts: 18074
Joined: Oct. 28, 2003

Anyway...  its pouring again now.  We need moar drainage!

April 25, 2021, 10:19 a.m.
Posts: 1642
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: heckler

I’m not disagreeing with you that rider experience on Pingu’s heavy braking zone is terrible, but at least “they” don't have to throw dirt on it monthly to keep it ridable. I expect the Pingu steeps would have been closed and rerouted as non-sustainable by the land manager and maintainer if not for the rock armours durability. Its all a careful tradeoff.

The problem in that location is Pingu is the only trail to go from the powerlines to BP and is too steep for most beginner/intermediate riders to ride comfortably = locked up brakes and erosion. The smart thing to do would be to cut in a new half of the trail to bypass the steeps and get people down to where it mellows out and traverses down to the BP.


 Last edited by: syncro on April 25, 2021, 10:20 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Reason: sp
April 25, 2021, 11:26 a.m.
Posts: 1455
Joined: Nov. 8, 2003

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: earleb

Thinking a bit about it now, heavy braking zones would benefit from using sifted gold in it's initial build, I think it would save future repair time further down the line.

Grass pavers

Aesthetics are awful though. I will move the earth on trails I've built to keep solutions natural. (Literally, as most solutions unhappily end up being a giant fucking grade reversal).

I'm with Syncro. Hard braking sections are all potential candidate for a re-route. I took one short hard braking section out recently, that lost momentum turned it into a section probably 3x longer with the same speed. Amazing just how much inertia is lost in one hard pull on the brakes.

@Heckler nice link, I'm going to take care of some long ignored tread creep now


 Last edited by: Hepcat on April 25, 2021, 3:48 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
April 25, 2021, 11:33 a.m.
Posts: 1642
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Yeah, I’m thinking really limited sections where a reroute may not be possible. Keep em covered with dirt and they’re not too visible tho. 

Another point this discussion brings up is using gold dirt or mineral soil - glacial till on the Shore. It sounds backwards, but there isn’t an unlimited supply of the stuff and digging pits to “mine gold” can create other problems.

April 25, 2021, 2:38 p.m.
Posts: 255
Joined: March 14, 2017

Posted by: heckler

Pingu has 14,000 ride logs on Trailforks and one of the steepest sanctioned mainline, most shuttled sections of dirt on Seymour.  Also built decades ago without knowledge of water management.  

John Deer has 17,000 ride logs for popularity comparison, but it pales in steepness.  Only the drop into the valley compares, but it has no need for brakes as the runout is steep uphill to stepup jump.

Dirty Diapers which I compare in steepness in a few spots, and is “oldschool” has 60.  Only 60!

I’m not disagreeing with you that rider experience on Pingu’s heavy braking zone is terrible, but at least “they” don't have to throw dirt on it monthly to keep it ridable.   I expect the Pingu steeps would have been closed and rerouted as non-sustainable by the land manager and maintainer if not for the rock armours durability.   Its all a careful tradeoff.  

.

water does more damage than the number of riders.... I think there are other options than laying down cobbled rock beds.  I would much rather ride Incline than Pingu.

April 25, 2021, 3:56 p.m.
Posts: 18074
Joined: Oct. 28, 2003

Lol, we agree. Pingu is straight fall line water-flow in that section. Incline is too, and already washed out to bedrock after many more years of being a logging skidder road.


 Last edited by: heckler on April 25, 2021, 3:57 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
April 26, 2021, 11:48 p.m.
Posts: 1677
Joined: July 11, 2014

Would rather ride dirt of course but I find the first part of Pingu pretty smooth with the rock armour/wood?

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