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vandalism on Leppard

Nov. 2, 2015, 9:22 a.m.
Posts: 2116
Joined: Aug. 4, 2009

Listening to people bitch about free trails being maintained for their enjoyment reminds me of the old saying 'No good deed goes unpunished'.

Nov. 2, 2015, 9:37 a.m.
Posts: 14537
Joined: Dec. 16, 2003

Listening to people bitch about free trails being maintained for their enjoyment reminds me of the old saying 'No good deed goes unpunished'.

It always reminds me of this line from A Few Good Men. Just change "freedom" for trails and "weapon" for shovel.

Col. Jessep:I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Nov. 2, 2015, 9:44 a.m.
Posts: 2116
Joined: Aug. 4, 2009

It always reminds me of this line from A Few Good Men. Just change "freedom" for trails and "weapon" for shovel.

Col. Jessep:I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

You win the Internet today my good man.

Nov. 2, 2015, 10:17 a.m.
Posts: 34323
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

Thank you Dave, and others.

It is easy to dodge our responsibilities, but we cannot dodge the consequences of dodging our responsibilities.
- Josiah Stamp

Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race.
- H.G. Wells

Nov. 2, 2015, 10:38 a.m.
Posts: 4834
Joined: Nov. 25, 2002

Just wanted to thank Pete for doing the work that needed to be done and that most riders will never know was done. They didn,t crash on a rotted structure and rolled off the rockface onto solid ground and carry on down ripping a great trail. He sees things on a trail that are not even noticed by most riders and that those things can be addressed. He cares enough to put the time and energy into fixing things before they are issues. I commend him for his efforts.

jim leppard

holy carp, the man himself! thanks for your contribution (to the trails [HTML_REMOVED] this thread).

Nov. 2, 2015, 12:16 p.m.
Posts: 1748
Joined: Feb. 24, 2004

Yep Pete changed that rock a bit to help with drainage and make the line slightly safer. I was there building with him that day. We also changed the mandatory bathtub line to help with the flow of the trail. Want to complain about that too?

didnt know nsmb was only for pros

its not, its only for dicks.

My Flickr

Nov. 2, 2015, 12:35 p.m.
Posts: 642
Joined: June 8, 2005

Yep Pete changed that rock a bit to help with drainage and make the line slightly safer. I was there building with him that day. We also changed the mandatory bathtub line to help with the flow of the trail. Want to complain about that too?

Sure, where do we line up to bitch. That bathtub should be removed as well, not natural building materials. (This is sarcasm, in case it is missed).

Will miss the logride for sure. Last ride through I was going to ride it as it looked so nice after the new entrance work and resurface work, but gave it a pass. Too bad. Just goes to show that the log structure was not safe. Why would Pete waste all that effort to fix the ramp entrance and resurface the log only to cut it up. Edit, is this the log being referred to that was cut up???

Still haven't completed the new work just after the log ride - ramp to boulder, down to ramp/corner. It's a little harder than what was there, but a nice touch to be sure.

I don't ride Seventh all that much, but every time I do have a blast and like and appreciate all the hard work that goes into it.

Props to Pete and all those making the trails great to ride. :clap: :clap: :clap:

Nov. 2, 2015, 12:54 p.m.
Posts: 8256
Joined: Nov. 21, 2002

Just wanted to thank Pete for doing the work that needed to be done and that most riders will never know was done. They didn,t crash on a rotted structure and rolled off the rockface onto solid ground and carry on down ripping a great trail. He sees things on a trail that are not even noticed by most riders and that those things can be addressed. He cares enough to put the time and energy into fixing things before they are issues. I commend him for his efforts.

jim leppard

hey something good came from this thread - a first post from the original builder Jim Leppard. Respect to you sir :)

and mad respect to Peter Morin too. Everytime I see intricate rockwork I wonder if its his handiwork (and it otfen is)

WTB Frequency i23 rim, 650b NEW - $40

Nov. 2, 2015, 3:11 p.m.
Posts: 77
Joined: Dec. 1, 2012

I was out for a Sunday ride on leppard; the only apparent trail vandalism appeared to be the unfortunate timing of fresh dirt work, rain and the fiver.

Another shout out to Peter for working out there again on Sunday to clean up the trail again!

Nov. 2, 2015, 3:36 p.m.
Posts: 17760
Joined: Oct. 28, 2003

Macaroo, maybe its time to edit your thread title please?

Nov. 2, 2015, 3:39 p.m.
Posts: 8935
Joined: Dec. 23, 2005

I was out for a Sunday ride on leppard; the only apparent trail vandalism appeared to be the unfortunate timing of fresh dirt work, rain and the fiver.

Another shout out to Peter for working out there again on Sunday to clean up the trail again!

Plans are being made to repair the fresh work back to nice and fresh.

Nov. 2, 2015, 8:23 p.m.
Posts: 19
Joined: Sept. 26, 2007

Macaroo, maybe its time to edit your thread title please?

What would you like it edited to? "Unnecessary permanent modification of natural features that can never be replaced"? It seems my post got hijacked to talk on and on about a rotting wood structure so I didn't really see any need to reply. My post had nothing to do with replaceable structures and I made no mention of this, nor do I care. There are lots of trees and they grow etc etc. I posted because I was concerned that it seems someone is/was taking it upon him/herself to permanently modify something that cannot be undone. I don't need to yell at posters and tell them to 'f-off' because I don't agree with them or tell them they are stupid because they don't agree. I also don't need to PM the person who did the deed… I don't know what that would solve. I already said I like Pete and the work he does (Leppard and 7th are my two favorite trails on Fromme). I had no idea it was him that did the rock damage. Should I have run across him or anyone else doing such a thing then or now I would still stop and ask them why they are doing it and most probably get into an argument about it.
People keep saying it is the builder's discretion. I agree with this to a point. I guess that point is when we start making irreversible decisions.
Sorry for giving a damn about trying to leave the same experience for the next rider. The rock damage had nothing do with safety, flow or anything else… it was about a bit of water.
If you want to debate that everyone (builders, hikers, riders) who goes into the forest has the right to permanently modify or deface the area etc then by all means I am happy to continue the discussion. If you want to complain about a log then perhaps start a different thread?

Nov. 2, 2015, 9:14 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Aug. 15, 2007

Well said Macaroo. While apparently not a popular position to take, I completely agree with your stance on this. This wasn't an attack on a specific builder or those that build. Especially Peter who is an amazing steward and visionary in our trail building history. Your post was instead an entirely appropriate question posed about a questionably "necessary" alteration to one of the trails that we enjoy.

Moving dirt, piling rocks, clearing deadfall, etc. That all works for me. Hammering away rock to drain a bit of water? Maybe not. Rock climbers figured out the chipping debate a decade or more ago. Maybe we should too. To be frank, this kind of trail alteration isn't "the builder's choice" in my opinion. Routing around a natural feature that impedes a builder's vision certainly is, digging to maintain a line in a more sustainable manner, probably. Hammering away a chunk of granite to promote a little water drainage so you don't get wet (on a section of trail that has been ridden successfully and without concern THOUSANDS of times) seems a bit off side. Even for one of our most respected and accomplished builders.

Peter would not have done this without good reason and I have to default to his good judgement on this but……chipping away granite seems like a thing I would prefer not to see on any trail, let alone one of our hallmark Fromme gems.

And for all of you who might have missed it……Macaroo had no idea who did this at first. He seems to have had legitimate concern tat someone was going out and altering (vandalizing) a trail in a destructive manner. Get over it, he didn't know at the time that it was actually Peter doing the work nor was he disrespectful in how he framed his concerns. His questions were legit and he didn't intend to dis Peter or any other "builder" as far as I can see.

Nov. 2, 2015, 9:18 p.m.
Posts: 351
Joined: March 4, 2013

i guess water is a vandal too. you know, seeing as it will erode those rocks over time.

won't someone please think of the rocks!

Nov. 2, 2015, 9:22 p.m.
Posts: 5
Joined: March 13, 2008

What would you like it edited to? "Unnecessary permanent modification of natural features that can never be replaced"? It seems my post got hijacked to talk on and on about a rotting wood structure so I didn't really see any need to reply. My post had nothing to do with replaceable structures and I made no mention of this, nor do I care. There are lots of trees and they grow etc etc. I posted because I was concerned that it seems someone is/was taking it upon him/herself to permanently modify something that cannot be undone. I don't need to yell at posters and tell them to 'f-off' because I don't agree with them or tell them they are stupid because they don't agree. I also don't need to PM the person who did the deed… I don't know what that would solve. I already said I like Pete and the work he does (Leppard and 7th are my two favorite trails on Fromme). I had no idea it was him that did the rock damage. Should I have run across him or anyone else doing such a thing then or now I would still stop and ask them why they are doing it and most probably get into an argument about it.
People keep saying it is the builder's discretion. I agree with this to a point. I guess that point is when we start making irreversible decisions.
Sorry for giving a damn about trying to leave the same experience for the next rider. The rock damage had nothing do with safety, flow or anything else… it was about a bit of water.
If you want to debate that everyone (builders, hikers, riders) who goes into the forest has the right to permanently modify or deface the area etc then by all means I am happy to continue the discussion. If you want to complain about a log then perhaps start a different thread?

The issue here is the lens through which you're looking at this. You seem to be set on interpreting Pete's trail work as "damage" or "vandalism" to the rock in question. This is seriously flawed - applying the same logic would mean that you should characterize any trail work done on the shore as "vandalism." Of course, this is ridiculous - almost entering Monica-like territory.

It's too bad that a feature that you clearly valued has been altered. However, perhaps next time you should be asking constructive questions and keeping an open mind as to why an experienced (and legendary) trail builder is changing a line rather than labelling it as vandalism.

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