Originally posted by counterpoint
**i got ya atch and counterpoint films is down for throwing $100 into your pot for the conviction (or maybe just a small beat down) of this individual.the odd nail on the trail and broken rungs don't count… **
Nice…any more reward to shut my pie hole???
My impressions (Sharon et al…) are based not only on what is happening and has happened elsewhere, but from a summer spent talking to the myriad of hikers that were on Fromme this summer (where I was for 8 hours a day six days a week). To the people that can be found hiking during odd hours/days to avoid the noise/percieved dangers associated with mountain bikers. People that see more and more of their "private" hiking haunts dissappear under stunts. If you doubt what I say, take a look at what I have called the "red paint" trail on Fromme. It is nothing but old logging trail connected by a series of red painted dots on the trees along the way. No less than three trails have taken advantage of this "trail" that has been widely used by hikers, joggers and others as their private sanctuary. Quite frankly they were angry, and as new trails continue to eat up old logging road and trail there is less and less for this group.
I am not justifying what these people are doing when it comes to endangering others. Its like the American attitude to terrorism. It may feel good to bomb the shit out of Saddam, but in reality it will only create more problems. Only by looking inward can we truly make these actions stop, after we address what is truly pissing them off…
No question that we have improved our public persona, for a large part due to the actions of the NSMBA and other advocacy groups. Its not the Staff at the NS District that we need to convince, its the activists that will have mountainbiking before District Council before we know. It is the Activists that we must deal with and appease as they have the loudest voice. Look at the skateboard bowl at Lonsdale Rec centre if you need confirmation of this…
And I'm all for ending Naziism on the North Shore…If you hadn't noticed I put $250 of my cold hard cash up in that effort…
Originally posted by Ah-Choo
I am not justifying what these people are doing when it comes to endangering others. Its like the American attitude to terrorism. It may feel good to bomb the shit out of Saddam, but in reality it will only create more problems. Only by looking inward can we truly make these actions stop, after we address what is truly pissing them off…
OK. This statement can go either way. This trail Nazi's approach is no different. It may feel good to place traps all over our trails in an effort to hospitalize us, but in reality it is only going to create more problems. The person(s) responsible need to use a bit of their professionalism and maturity to perhaps redirect their aggression and energy into trying to understand that trails can be shared. Maybe they can open up their mind to the fact that 20 years ago mountain biking didn't flourish like it does now. Maybe they can take a minute to try to understand that we are not an enemy, but a user group sharing similar interests who can co-habitate together.
If these individuals truly cared about nature and trail access and conditions, they wouldn't go out of there way to obstruct them. They'd also see that their criminal actions are recognized by us (though I hate to use the words us/them) and that it is painting all hikers with the same ugly brush. Just like their are bad apples on mtb's, their are bad apples in Merrells.
Trying to hurt eachother and offering a "bounty" is only dumping gas on the fire. By offering a bounty you are stooping to their level by encouraging vigilante action. How will you feel when a hopped up bunch of 16 year old riders who are the "bad apples" beat the hell out of a guy with a walking stick and come to you for the money? Grow up and stop making a joke out of this.
I said it before. If you are such a "big spender", do as you advocated in your Capitalism and JH argument and put that money back in the community and the trails, not some blood thirsty angry mountain biker.
Originally posted by Ah-Choo
If you doubt what I say, take a look at what I have called the "red paint" trail on Fromme. It is nothing but old logging trail connected by a series of red painted dots on the trees along the way. No less than three trails have taken advantage of this "trail" that has been widely used by hikers, joggers and others as their private sanctuary. Quite frankly they were angry, and as new trails continue to eat up old logging road and trail there is less and less for this group.
THat's not good. St Georges, that red paint trail and PeerGynt are pretty much the only hiking trails on that side of the mountain and they should be left that way imo. Do you know who's building that?
On another note, there's someone building awfully close to the stream down Abelard Canyon = the trail comes off Air Supply. I've been told that the stream is fish habitat and if it is then that trail is way too close to it. If you know who's building that one too could you let me know?
no trail nazis on burke but ppl have killed ladders ive made by my house and they were very well built too.:mad:
It looks to me like many points made in this (discussion) argument presume that we are talking about just TWO groups - mtn. bikers and "those against mtn. bikers". That just isn't accurate imo.
The retired avid hiker - who has been hiking the same trails for 15 years - is right to be disturbed by the invasion of DH'ers who rip around blind corners at 60km/h. Maybe that hiker should "learn to share"… but I dunno - I'm pretty sure I would be P.O.ed if (by analogy) a bunch of Motor-bikers showed up on Ned's one day and started racing UP the trail as fast as they could while we were trying to bike down. Fact is, we have competing interests with many other users.
However, this group (hikers etc) are not homogenous and many (most) would be loath to be grouped into a "trail Nazi" definition. That characterizatoin hurts their cause just as much as disrespectful mtn. bikers hurts our cause. I'm in no hurry to cooperate or appease the likes of the so-called trail Nazi, but I don't think we can afford to dismiss other user groups as selfish or irrelvant.
At that reminds me … even mtn. bikers are not a homogenous group. I think that the average biker misses many opportunities to improve/protect our image. There is a lot one can do when on the trail to protect our rep and leave the hikers we encounter with a positive impression. Ask yourself this question: when you see a hiker on a trail that you are riding down, what do you do? Do you even slow down? Do you make an effort to ensure that the hiker feels safe (or do you skid to a seemingly uncontrolled last minute stop)? Do you say "Hello", "Thanks for letting us by?" etc.? When we aren't rider a designated Mtn. Biker course (like at Whistler), we have no greater right to be there than the hikers do.
It will be difficult to find a way to totally share the trails with multiple user groups - especially with the evolution of the DH aspect of our sport … but if we aren't careful, further (enforced) trail regulation is certainly around the corner … just look south to see what can happen to your access to your favourite trails.
Originally posted by Mulletron
**I said it before. If you are such a "big spender", do as you advocated in your Capitalism and JH argument and put that money back in the community and the trails, not some blood thirsty angry mountain biker. **
Mulletron perhaps you dont know who Achoo is but I think its pretty fair to say that there are very few people who put more back into the trails AND community than Achoo. In fact I Doubt there is anyone that does more of both of these things.
There are other trial builders that do great work on the shore but few who help the community as much as achoo.
Originally posted by Mulletron
**OK. The person(s) responsible need to use a bit of their professionalism and maturity to perhaps redirect their aggression and energy into trying to understand that trails can be shared…Trying to hurt eachother and offering a "bounty" is only dumping gas on the fire. By offering a bounty you are stooping to their level by encouraging vigilante action…Grow up and stop making a joke out of this.
I said it before. If you are such a "big spender", do as you advocated in your Capitalism and JH argument and put that money back in the community and the trails, not some blood thirsty angry mountain biker. **
Trails cannot be shared…the reality is that loud fast and heavy mountain bikes careening downhill at unaware and unsuspecting hikers is not a combination that will please either group. The sooner we realize that as mountainbikers the better off we are.
It is not a "bounty"…I did not say "Dead or Alive" or "beaten to a pulp" I said "information that leads to the conviction…". I'm not sure if you're aware of a group called Crime Stoppers, but they have been quite successful in the past using just this method.
As for the last one, well I'll just keep that in mind…
Merry Christmas, and thanks for the debate…
As for the last one, well I'll just keep that in mind…
Merry Christmas, and thanks for the debate…
Sorry dude … my questions were rhetorical and not directed at you in particular. I think that we largely agree …
Merry x-mass.
Originally posted by LeeLau
On another note, there's someone building awfully close to the stream down Abelard Canyon = the trail comes off Air Supply. I've been told that the stream is fish habitat and if it is then that trail is way too close to it. If you know who's building that one too could you let me know?
i know who it is..
i told them to contact you
they told me that they dont want to talk to anyone about it..
some people!
Big Bike: Santa Cruz Bullit
Bigger Bike: Suzuki RM125
Originally posted by Ransak
**As for the last one, well I'll just keep that in mind…Merry Christmas, and thanks for the debate… **
Sorry dude … my questions were rhetorical and not directed at you in particular. I think that we largely agree …
Merry x-mass.
That wasn't directed @ you…I meant the last part of the mulletron quote…
Originally posted by Ransak
**As for the last one, well I'll just keep that in mind…Merry Christmas, and thanks for the debate… **
Sorry dude … my questions were rhetorical and not directed at you in particular. I think that we largely agree …
Merry x-mass.
RansaK
who are you, and where in the cove do u live ?
Originally posted by Ah-Choo
People that see more and more of their "private" hiking haunts dissappear under stunts. If you doubt what I say, take a look at what I have called the "red paint" trail on Fromme. It is nothing but old logging trail connected by a series of red painted dots on the trees along the way. No less than three trails have taken advantage of this "trail" that has been widely used by hikers, joggers and others as their private sanctuary. Quite frankly they were angry, and as new trails continue to eat up old logging road and trail there is less and less for this group.
Are there any hiking only trails on Fromme? Or Seymour? I would think that would be a solution.
It is easy to dodge our responsibilities, but we cannot dodge the consequences of dodging our responsibilities.
- Josiah Stamp
Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race.
- H.G. Wells
Originally posted by Ah-Choo
I'm not sure if you're aware of a group called Crime Stoppers, but they have been quite successful in the past using just this method.
…Save the sarcasm, it adds nothing to this debate.
I am not looking to go toe to toe here. The issue is that somebody is building structures designed to hurt us, both yourself and I.
Your initial reaction to this current event came across as making light of it and brushing it off. While you did explain the historical events that have led to this kind of action (which I DO agree with), it felt as though you were trying to say such actions are justified. Any action to hurt another person over shared interests is never justification to hurt.
My point regarding your bounty is that a lot of the people who hear of this lack the intellectual capacity to fully grasp the fine print in your offer. I think that putting that money into the NSMBA will be a safer move that will likely have greater ramifications for our trails and public voice than giving some kid cash for staking out a trail vandal. As sincere as your intentions may have been, not all who hear of it will understand that.
This is not a personal issue I have with Ah-Choo, and I am sure he feels the same. RAT, I am aware of who he is, and who everyone on the board is. We are mountain bikers who share the same love for riding and for our trails, and who want to keep things safe, accessable and fun for everyone.
I don't want to see a Trail Nazi paint all hikers with a bad brush. I also don't want to see aggresive, unfriendly and ignorant mountain bikers paint us with theri bad brush.
The public face of our sport is undergoing some major changes. What we enjoy now is going to be very hard to preserve. Now is a good time to band together and find solutions, not squabble amongst ourselves.
I missed the replies over the last two days…So Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!!
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