Executioner

I'd say until now most of the jumpy bermy flow on the shore has actually been on untapped secret trails. Yeah the secret trails on the shore have gnarlier features and sections, but in between the gnar they are typically smoother and flowier. (1.) Because they're still soft and loamy (2.) because builders are willing to put the work in when there trails wont be immediately ridden to death.

furthermore all this tapping diverts traffic from your beloved hardcore shitbeat trails. stop complaining and go ride your bike.

Now that was an awesome vid! Not too many mapped trails in that one though. I'm surprised how much I didn't recognize.

go for a bushwhack or three….

this thread needs some of this.

http://www.pinkbike.com/video/261458/

I think we can prolly shut this thread down right here.

the land is PUBLIC land and the "land managers" are supposedly working for the taxpayer… Of course we can't go around wrecking the shit, but they do need to be regularly reminded what the shore looked like 60 years ago.

Exactly. Fromme's value lies almost entirely in recreation. And if weren't for recreation, subdivisions would be climbing higher every day.

You are right, fall line can be sustainable if several criteria are met:
There is adequate drainage before the fall section to keep water flow away from the trail and,
1: the line is bedrock, or totally armoured with massive rock.
or,
2: the line is smooth, uninterrupted and ends with either a grade reversal or a berm to change your direction while minimising braking.

There are a few spots where this is done very well, but the line choice has to be made very carefully when implementing a section like this, and these thoughts were not in existence when the shore trails were first cut.

Just to add to the disclosure statement that Woodro suggested; I've been digging with the NSMBA, BMBA, FVMBA and TORCC for 6 years, leading on some trail days. I'm currently helping Heckler on Pangor with the MuddBunnies, and Chris (who is working on Executioner) and I have built new trail which has held up to BC weather and the required drainage, and is still fun and technical.

Obviously you have experience building. I liked that armchair builder comment. I have been dealing with the same issues trying to convince my friends and other local riders that we CAN build challenging trails that are also sustainable here in Flagstaff, AZ. I am working on the final steps for our initial proposal for the Forrest Service and we are finishing up our NEPA study this year so if all goes well we should be building next spring! This is a BIG deal down here in the states so I am very excited! Also, those side walks you folks are complaining about is just the way to develop well built tread, the singletrack will be back as the forest grows back in and the lines are beaten in, that complaint is common with the inexperienced.

I'd say until now most of the jumpy bermy flow on the shore has actually been on untapped secret trails. Yeah the secret trails on the shore have gnarlier features and sections, but in between the gnar they are typically smoother and flowier. (1.) Because they're still soft and loamy (2.) because builders are willing to put the work in when there trails wont be immediately ridden to death.

Yes, this is exactly right. Back in "the day", the natural sections of, for example, Ladies weren't all that much different than they are now (well, other than the bermed bits). The bombed-out gnar comes from erosion and overuse. If anything, the TAP trails are being returned to a state reminiscent of how they rode earlier, but far more sustainable and friendly to the powers that be.

I rode my first NS trails in 1994, by the way. Several years later, I took a decade-long break. I think the trails are better now.

For some reason I ride Grannies once or twice a year, no idea why, and not only have I never seen anyone on it, I haven't even see traces of others' passing. Every year, that "trail" gets more nebulous and overgrown. So where are all the gnar-lovers?

As for Ladies being "too easy": cleaning the whole trail, including the uphill and rooty sections, is challenging, especially when it's wet. Most people push their bikes on the rooty and steep uphill parts and then claim they've done the trail. Nope.

Most people push their bikes on the rooty and steep uphill parts and then claim they've done the trail. Nope.

i like how you think.

Just don't do Grannies by yourself. If you have a bad crash, it might be a couple of months until someone finds you.

Oh there are still a few people around riding Grannies. My buddies and I hit it every time we are on Fromme - for a while there we rode it every weekend and often ran into others at the trail head. Bookwus to Grannies to Boundary or Crippler and then back up to Lower Ladies will satisfy anyones need for "old school gnar".