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Cambodia decommissioned

July 24, 2015, 12:57 p.m.
Posts: 526
Joined: April 16, 2005

So long Cambodia, you were a good friend. I feel a little empty inside.

July 24, 2015, 1:23 p.m.
Posts: 1713
Joined: Dec. 31, 2006

P_D, based on murmurings, it seems like metro van wants an upper dales type trail down the whole mountain. That's would be a good thing if they weren't so hellbent on destroying other good trails in the process.

The NSMBA is in fact fighting to prevent the loss of TNT. There was nothing they could do about the decommissioning of aftertaste, Lola, gnomer, and now Cambodia. Metro van went full honey badger and just did it.

So P_D hit the nail on the head in his post with everything except NSMBA involvement.

July 24, 2015, 1:32 p.m.
Posts: 108
Joined: July 31, 2007

I have a question. I went to Metro Van's web site. It lists it's member municipalities, which includes the DNV. So does this mean, when we're talking about the north shore, the DNV and Metro Vancouver and LSCR are basically all one in the same? I'd like to know, among other things, who I can contact directly to politely ask them wtf, and who I should vote for/against in the next election.

Having a discussion about certain problematic sections of trail is one thing, but just going in there the way they did smashing everything up, trashing the trail and leaving the remains scattered on the forest floor seems totally inappropriate and shows their true character. They're tearing down skills parks right and left (first Inter River and then Bowen Island), just in time for summer, apparently so the little kids can stay in the safety of their homes playing video games instead of getting outside and riding their bikes. What is the matter with these people? There has to be a particular person or persons who is calling the shots and instituting this mean spirited campaign. And what an unmitigated waste of our tax dollars. First, we pay them to hire Jay Hoots to build the skills parks. Then we pay somebody else to go back and tear them down. Dafuq? I think, for a start, we need some names and email addresses of individual decision makers.

I know a guy from the bmx track who works for the DNV. I will ask him if he has any insights into what's going on.

July 24, 2015, 1:33 p.m.
Posts: 4834
Joined: Nov. 25, 2002

LSCR/Metro did not inform the NSMBA of it's intentions to decom Cambodia.

There were discussion previously to get approval to do work on Cambodia to bring things up to an approved level. Things were looking promising then they go and do this without communication.

it's just bizarre there's absolutely no public notification / consultation /justification of actions, and shit like this "just happens". Does the public not have access to the discussions that transpire prior to such actions taking place? Curious who specifically would be involved in the decision making process. Is it committee based, or is there one trail razing czar responsible?

edit - pd hit reply before i did on the same sentiments…

July 24, 2015, 1:50 p.m.
Posts: 642
Joined: June 8, 2005

P_D, based on murmurings, it seems like metro van wants an upper dales type trail down the whole mountain. That's would be a good thing if they weren't so hellbent on destroying other good trails in the process…

I rode upper dales again this week, my second time on the trail, was bored by the time I got 1/2 way down. Funny thing, never got bored on the old upper dales section. If that thing was all the way down the mountain, the LSCR may achieve their goals by getting all bikes off the mountain as we will all give up and go home.

Its not that most of us are wanting all trails to be like Cambodia or Lower Dales, or TNT, but having those types of trails provide a great mix as compared to Asian Adonis (which although more of flow trail, is an absolute blast to ride), or Bobsled, Espresso.

This is from a hack rider who does't really ride either type of trail (flow or old school) all that well, but likes the option to be able to ride either or both.

I don't get the seemingly 180 degree turn. Things looked like they were progressing in a good way with regard to trails, then we get summer of the chain saw massacre re-deux. Almost as bad as when Cypress was decimated.

What's wrong with TNT. Surely there can't also be environmental concerns there too. Haven't heard of any injuries on the trail. Maybe it's because the name sounds violent or bad. That will put servered and C next.

July 24, 2015, 1:53 p.m.
Posts: 1120
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

one of the issues with metro is that they are not a directly elected body like the DNV, DWV, COB, etc which means they are somewhat insulated by a level of bureaucracy from us, the voters. therefore, we cannot put direct presure on individual council members via council meetings or elect members that are mtb friendly. in order to put pressure on the lscr it means putting pressure on the elected representatives from all the regional governments that sit on the metro board and it's comittees. while it is worthwhile to voice your displeasure directly with the LSCR it is more important to voice it with the board or comittee member from the area you reside in. in order for this to be effective, we as a community need to make enough noise that the elected officials know this may potentially be an election issue for them in the futre.

metro has 38 directors representing 21 municiplaities. the list of directors can be found here:
http://www.metrovancouver.org/boards/membership/board-members/Pages/default.aspx

further, the utilities committee at metro is in charge of the LSCR. those comittee members can be found here:
http://www.metrovancouver.org/boards...s/default.aspx
of note, Robin Hicks, DNV councilor sits on that committee.

now besdies wrting a letter to the right people, as voters we are also allowed to speak to the metro board and it's committees. in this case, the utilities committee. in order to do so, an application must be made in order to speak.

to speak before the metro baord, specifically the GVRD:
http://www.metrovancouver.org/boards/delegations/boards/Pages/default.aspx

to speak before the untilities committee:
http://www.metrovancouver.org/boards/delegations/committees/Pages/default.aspx

the next board meeting takes place at 9am, Fri July 28th and a minimum of 48 hours notice is required to submit an application to speak before the board. if people wish to speak then an application should be made in the next few days.

the next utilities committee meeting takes place at 9am on Thur, Sept 10th and a minimum of 9 working days is required to submit an application to speak before the comittee. there is a process to apply as a late delegation, but only if there is a report on their agenda that realtes to our topic.

if someone is going to speak at the upcoming metro board meeting, the application needs to happen quickly. i would also suggest not delaying in applying to speak before the parks committee.

link to the agendas for the meeting on July 28th:
gvrd - http://www.metrovancouver.org/boards/GVRD/RD_2015-Jul-31_AGE.pdf

context is everything

July 24, 2015, 2:11 p.m.
Posts: 108
Joined: July 31, 2007

The NSMBA is in fact fighting to prevent the loss of TNT. There was nothing they could do about the decommissioning of aftertaste, Lola, gnomer, and now Cambodia. Metro van went full honey badger and just did it.

So P_D hit the nail on the head in his post with everything except NSMBA involvement.

Thanks for the clarification. Trying to throw NSMBA under the bus was unfair. I apologize.

I know resources are limited, but one criticism that might be legitimate is that it's hard to get a sense for what's actually going on in terms of this fight to save the trails, at least not on the NSMBA web site-

http://www.nsmba.ca/content/2014-06_2014-metro-work-plan

http://www.nsmba.ca/category/tags/advocacy

Looking through their web site I really don't get a sense that there's much of a problem at all that we should be too concerned about. Which trails are under threat? What can we do? Which LSCR decision makers can we write to? It would be great to see more of that kind of timely and accurate information on their web site.

Plans to destroy CBC et al and replace them with trails built with a bulldozer is a big deal but I don't get a sense of that happening at all. The message from the NSMBA seems to be that everything is rosy, and for sure there are a lot of great things happening and a lot to be thankful for. But this LSCR thing seems like a pretty big problem that's not going away. They keep adding insult to injury. It would be great if NSMBA can share a little more light on what is happening with the LSCR, and what if anything can be done to get involved in that side of the trail advocacy battle and help them fight the good fight. If people don't know their trails are at risk, then they can't make their voices heard until it's too late.

Peace.

July 24, 2015, 2:14 p.m.
Posts: 10077
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

Nothing on Metro Van's public site discussing the Cambodia trail.

Google search "cambodia site:metrovancouver.org"

July 24, 2015, 2:21 p.m.
Posts: 10077
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

Only reference to Dale's, other than a couple of maps.

http://www.metrovancouver.org/services/parks/lists/parkadvisories/allitems.aspx

2/3rds of the way down the page:

"Mountain Bike Structure Decommissioning
Safety inspections of existing mountain bike structures on LSCR land are being conducted. Some mountain bike structures on popular LSCR trails (Ned’s, Dale’s, etc.) have reached their lifespan and may now present a safety hazard to users due to structural or surfacing deficiencies. Those structures deemed to be unsafe and beyond repair are being removed."

"NSMBA Trail Adoption Program (TAP)
Metro Vancouver is supporting the North Shore Mountain Bike Association (NSMBA) in their commitment to trail maintenance and restoration. Expect some work to be underway on the following trails this season within the LSCR: Circuit-8, Corkscrew, TNT, Dale’s, and Forever After. Note that this work will include the removal of structures in unsatisfactory condition. If you have any questions or concerns, please contact the NSMBA or LSCR staff 604.432.6200 or email."
LSCR@metrovancouver.org

Linked to:

http://www.metrovancouver.org/services/parks/Lists/ParkAdvisories/DispForm.aspx?ID=196[HTML_REMOVED]Source=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Emetrovancouver%2Eorg%2Fservices%2Fparks%2Flists%2Fparkadvisories%2Fallitems%2Easpx[HTML_REMOVED]ContentTypeId=0x0100BB7001873EC88E4ABEDC8EAEE393C1DE

[HTML_REMOVED]

http://www.metrovancouver.org/services/parks/Lists/ParkAdvisories/DispForm.aspx?ID=194[HTML_REMOVED]Source=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Emetrovancouver%2Eorg%2Fservices%2Fparks%2Flists%2Fparkadvisories%2Fallitems%2Easpx[HTML_REMOVED]ContentTypeId=0x0100BB7001873EC88E4ABEDC8EAEE393C1DE

July 24, 2015, 2:25 p.m.
Posts: 364
Joined: July 8, 2005

It would be great if NSMBA can share a little more light on what is happening with the LSCR, and what if anything can be done to get involved in that side of the trail advocacy battle and help them fight the good fight. If people don't know their trails are at risk, then they can't make their voices heard until it's too late.

Peace.

Unfortunately, as Shirk noted, NSMBA was not informed about the decommissioning.

As I mentioned previously, NSMBA was initially given the go ahead to work on CBC and Cambodia through TAP, but Metro then changed their mind. This was published in the Town Hall minutes. Not all that rosy from my perspective (with respect to Metro managed land).

Where things are rosier, is on DNV managed lands - as DNV is not only willing to work with NSMBA, but has also given NSMBA money for trail work. There are a lot of land managers at play on the North Shore trails; fortunately Metro is only one (smaller) "slice of the pie".

July 24, 2015, 2:37 p.m.
Posts: 23
Joined: Dec. 12, 2014

Nothing on Metro Van's public site discussing the Cambodia trail.

Google search "cambodia site:metrovancouver.org"

Probably because operational details (which trail needs work, decommissioning, etc) of one unit of metrovancouver (such as LSCR) are discussed internally to that unit.
Eventually some details might make it into a published work plan, but that's it.

As for Cambodia itself, if they leave it as is now, as someone else mentioned I think, it can still be used by hikers and bikers.

In any argument about trails, the local land manager has to consider insurance, I suppose. To what extent would metrovancouver be responsible for a serious accident (like the one recently on Cam) or death (like Lola), on one of their official sanctioned trails?
And on one of their unofficial trails?

July 24, 2015, 3:13 p.m.
Posts: 108
Joined: July 31, 2007

In any argument about trails, the local land manager has to consider insurance, I suppose. To what extent would metrovancouver be responsible for a serious accident (like the one recently on Cam) or death (like Lola), on one of their official sanctioned trails?
And on one of their unofficial trails?

Who is the land manager on Fromme? The death on Pipeline comes to mind. I didn't know there was a fatality on Lola. I think they are not liable, but that doesn't mean someone couldn't try to sue them anyway. I have a feeling it's more an issue of a decision maker going out there and saying, omg, look at that section, that's way too dangerous. Cambodia has a lot of sections like that.

If Lola and Cambodia was going to be the end of it, I'd be disappointed, frustrated, sad, but not angry. But if their ultimate plan is to destroy CBC and everything east of Severed (with the exception of Dales and FA), and all the others will be replaced with wide unmaintainable machine built swaths of dirt, then that's something to bust out the pitch forks over.

It's maddening that they won't tell us what they're actually planning to do, but all indications seem to be that it's not good.

July 24, 2015, 3:32 p.m.
Posts: 2099
Joined: April 22, 2006

Here's some good reading.

Article on Risk Management and liability on Trails in Canada (not an official government source but is a well written document on the topic.)
http://www.tctontario.ca/library/files/Insurance[HTML_REMOVED]Trails.pdf

Occupiers Liability Act.
http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/96337_01

July 24, 2015, 4:30 p.m.
Posts: 23
Joined: Dec. 12, 2014

Who is the land manager on Fromme? The death on Pipeline comes to mind. I didn't know there was a fatality on Lola. I think they are not liable, but that doesn't mean someone couldn't try to sue them anyway. I have a feeling it's more an issue of a decision maker going out there and saying, omg, look at that section, that's way too dangerous. Cambodia has a lot of sections like that.

Someone recently posted a map showing the confusing situation of land management on Fromme. All of it is within the DNV I believe, but some is owned by Grouse Mtn., and some is within Lynn Headwaters Regional Park (Metrovancouver).

Lola was named after the woman who died on the trail. I hope that if Lola is decommissioned they will leave the metal plaque on a rock on the trail that commemorates her.

July 24, 2015, 4:34 p.m.
Posts: 23
Joined: Dec. 12, 2014

Here's some good reading.

Article on Risk Management and liability on Trails in Canada (not an official government source but is a well written document on the topic.)
http://www.tctontario.ca/library/files/Insurance[HTML_REMOVED]Trails.pdf

Occupiers Liability Act.
http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/96337_01

Yes, good reading. Seems most court decisions are like many car accident cases. Some liability attributed to the driver, some to the road and/or other drivers involved.

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