Building for a wider range of riders

Listen Jamie, How many trails are there on the shore that doesn't have some sort of man-made wooden structure on it? Not many. How many trails are as fast as Ned's? None. I'm talking about making it more gnarled for better dh training (like WC). Ned's is a classic that I think should be left natural. If you are to build on it, build natural. I'm surprised to hear that from a fellow dh'er.

Gimped, a little OT but… if you dig on 'Bin Over-ridden line I can turn you on to some hour+ descents of curly, bermed, brake bumped, whooptied, switchbacked ribbons that are absolutely devoid of riders, shuttlers and ski pole toting hikers.

Something about leaving a pack of moto's sucking your dust will change your whole outlook on riding… or is it the 4-5000ft descents? :D

Have you ridden Cypress lately? No stunts there, lots of fall line fast trails.
Sex Boy
Coiler

Perfect for DH training runs, they're already braided and eroded! AND there are no parking issues, yet.

Originally posted by gimped
Listen Jamie, How many trails are there on the shore that doesn't have some sort of man-made wooden structure on it? Not many. How many trails are as fast as Ned's? None. I'm talking about making it more gnarled for better dh training (like WC). Ned's is a classic that I think should be left natural. If you are to build on it, build natural. I'm surprised to hear that from a fellow dh'er.

Cypress is my fav by far for that reason.

Ned I'm there!

Originally posted by gimped
I want to start making Ned's way more technical. I would like to add more rock lines on top of rock lines to slow it down a bit. I wouldn't call it a beginner trail exactly, because it can be tough when going at high speed. More stuff like the root gap and the big rocks with gnarly step-down gaps. Who's with me?

from john

I am not building stunts, Thank You. All I have done so far is fixed shotty work from other builders that were only concerned with building shit ramps and dumb drops. I am only there to preserve the original line. If you modify the original line I will hurt you, do not touch the trail. It is fine; all it needs is basic maintenance. I am sure people would like to leave is as a somewhat technical beginners trail. If it's not technical enough for young o somewhere else or ride faster. If you slow it down (which you can't because like Jamie said we'll just gap over the stuff like we do now.), it will become a stupid trail. It was also make it harder for the beginners, don't forget we all share the trails. Neds is and always will be a beginner style trail, were not going to change it to a WC trail because YOU want too. There are more people than you out there fool. Want to train for DH go ride bear or something else. All I plan to do is fix some dangerous lines and fill in rock and dirt where needed. No more of this building huge stunts, I don't do that on he shore because it's an eye sore and land managers aren't to keen on that high up stuff that breaks necks.

My question is when did neds go from being a beginner trail to a downhill training run? I think people need to be slowed on Neds, not necessarily with big stunts, but with ground level stuff that can be learned on and is fun for an expert rider looking to downsize his or her ride, and with old fasioned tight corners and nose first drops that require the skills necessary to progress to the next level safely…and I'm not crapping on the work, some-one was good enough to make crappy trails ridable again…just putting in my two cents, and I'm sure that I'm not the first who said you shoulda…I got it all summer…

Neds stopped being a beginner trail when its level of erosion got to this current point of disaster.

The combined effect of riders and water running down the trail has made the drops bigger and rocky areas more rocky!

The best thing to do for that trail would be drainage to stop the water erosion. The lower bridges were built over really eroded areas, really because the people were too lazy or didn't know how to do the rock work.

I remember riding that trail on the Slayer (5X5, 2.5inch tires, flat pedals), then riding the XC HT down it (3 inch X-Fly, clipped in, 2.1 FireXC Pros). HOLY CRAP! Was that trail more difficult on the HT! It didn't used to be!

Whoa John!! Get off the high-horse man! You are obviously a young [HTML_REMOVED] brave little POS so watch it son. Please don't threaten anyone because you do not know who you can get on the other side. You are fixing up existing stuff, you're my hero, have a cookie!

Anyway…Gaps and filling in sections with dirt and rock lines is exactly what I am promoting.

Ned's has been a beginner/intermediate/pro-level trail forever. It's how fast/slow you can ride it. Adding more technicality is not nessicarily (sp) going to make it harder. I'm talking about harder at speed, but still somewhat easy going slow.

Originally posted by gimped
Whoa John!! Get off the high-horse man! You are obviously a young [HTML_REMOVED] brave little POS so watch it son. Please don't threaten anyone because you do not know who you can get on the other side. You are fixing up existing stuff, you're my hero, have a cookie!

From John:

"It's assholesd like you that ruin this sport only thinking about yourself. I would advise you to leave me alone as you have no clue who I am or what I can do to you. Don't fuck with smarter people guy. I'll be the merry guy I am and keep workin on neds for people who have respect, not for assholes like yourself. Hope to never meet you in my life. I'm done with this thread, for anyone that wants ot help. I'll be up there on Saturday and sunday from 7-5 all day "

From john himself

reminder he is pretty buff

Wow, I forgot about this thread and it took off!

There is a whole other point now that is starting to surface, and sadly it's at least partially true: All the trails on the shore (and surrounding mountains) are becoming more and more alike. I have to say I DO reaaaally enjoy our trails (in fact I plan to live in BC for a long, long time, largely due to our world famous trails) - if you want to go for a smooth, flowing, faster trail.. well, um, you better get more suspension. We don't have much here for that, all our trails are a bunch of stunts with steep, rooty, tight trail between them.

But then again, that's the card nature has dealt us with the terrain - and the builders do a great job of building what the terrain allows (and the drainage systems are very impressive).

We all have different views on what our idea of the perfect trail is. Best thing we can do is take a look at each trail and decide first what will work best in terms of working with the terrain, and then compare with other trails so you can have as much variety in both terrain and difficulty. I personally like a good variety myself, I'd be up for a tech trail followed by something smoother and flowier, etc.

And thanks to those two supported and considered my ideas. I wouldn't want to make anything less boring or difficult to the experts (after all.. difficulty is what makes the shore famous), but intermediate riders like myself enjoy the stunts but oftentimes have to skip them because of a drop or whatnot.

Maybe it already exists, but here's a trail I'd LOVE to see: A balance line trail, but the stunts staying under 4 feet off the ground. (Maybe some optional side lines going higher). Drops ok, but small ones. Lots and lots of skinny stuff, pretty low to the ground. Berms and flowy stuff in between as well. Maybe several different lines on some balance sections, to add a little more dynamics to the trail.

I'm not sure why as the stunts get narrower, they have to get higher!

Gimped, John. Chill.

John that kind of reply is why you are not allowed to post here anymore.

Lostboyscout, have you ridden Upper Oilcan or Bitches Brew?

Neds needs work, if someone is going to take on that task, then respect his decision about the work that needs to be done. Gimped it sounds like you have the same vision as John, why don't you go help him out?

First, a note on Ned's.

I helped out John one day a couple weekends ago, and I will be helping him some more. The very bottom of Ned's, the last few hundred metres, is essentially a bunch of ladders. Only a couple small sections of these ladders have rungs that are in good condition, and safely nailed down.

The rest of the wood work has a lot of missing rungs (people have even posted this up on the trail conditions forum), rungs that have rotted and broke, and rungs that will not last another season. There's probably 150 to 200 rungs like this. Also, there are nails sticking up where the rungs have broken off.

What John started, and I've tried to help with, is to start at the top of this section, and replace all the rungs with new ones. The first part, where the ladder-on-log crosses back accross the trail, had a ladder section on the left that would lean heavily under weight, and was soon to break. John propped that up right away; it will be made much stronger. The small up-and-over ladder on the log that crosses the trail had rotted and was missing rungs. The intersection with the main ladder was a dangerous hole where a wheel could easily get caught in. The drop-off ladder that was not only very steep, but rotting. We replaced the rungs on the intersection, and replaced the steep drop-off ladder with a new one that is less steep. Why less steep? Because I've personally seen a half dozen endos on that thing, and I've seen people slip off as they try to walk their bike over.

The two ladder drops at the bottom are in good shape, and can be left as is. They go to the side of the trail, and are used a lot (Ned's, being a very wide trail, can support this configuration with ease). The rolling ladder, just below the section John started on, is in bad shape; missing runs, very sketchy to walk on, etc. It will be repaired. There's a gap jump to the right that seems to be in good shape. The ladder bridges on the "exit-stage-left" path are in good shape, and are needed there because of the amount of water that pools up (which cannot be drained).

After fixing what is dangerous, without adding any new kind of stunts, John and I have talked about rocking in some of the rolls up the trail, and putting in drainage where there are ponds of water, or where there is just too much erosion occuring. Also, some of the upper structures, such as the first a-frame, will be repaired (it already has a big gap in it because rungs have broken off).

I see no problems with what John (or I) have done, or plan to do. It's all to do with making the trail safer and more durable. In other words, it's been trail maintenance. That's what the NSMBA has committed to, and we want to see the trails kept open and the opportunity for new trails in the future.

As for what Ned's is: Ned's is a trail that is shuttled hard. Especially in the winter, when it's arguably the best trail to ride in terms of condition. It's a trail that a good novice to intermediate rider can enjoy, and it's also a trail that experienced and pro DH racers enjoy. You can ride it slow, or rip it up, and safely too, because of it's width and excellent visibility. It is a trail for almost all riders because of these things, and I very much doubt that will change.

I cannot speak for John, but if I wanted to modify the trail at all, I would not do so without consulting some people like PD or Jeremy or other NSMBA trail coordinators. I personally feel that the trail ownership issue can be taken too far. A concerted effort by the group makes more sense, and not using the experience of some of the NSMBA's trailbuilders, with regards to the best way to drain, rock, flow, lay down a stunt, etc., would be, well, dumb. Plus, no none has a patent on good ideas.

As for the topic of the thread.

A colleague of mine, at work, overheard myself and another colleague talking about mountain biking. He wanted to get into it, so he bought a nice hardtail. Rode for a while, getting used to the bike. Then, one weekend, he wanted to ride on one of the mountains. A bike shop person told him to do Pipeline ("easiest trail on Fromme"). My colleague showed up for work on Monday with bruises all over his body. It's not an easy trail. If you think about it, there aren't any "easy" trails on the three mountains. I've since told him to ride Bridal Path (our one pseudo XC type trail) to get used to the roots and rocks.

But I'd like to talk about Seymour, as I know it very well.

Most of the trails require maintenance in that they need existing structures fixed, and they need rock/drainage work done. Take Pangor. When it's dry, it's a sweet trail. When wet, it's a trail that's half submerged. Dave has done some great work on the lower section. Chris has fixed up some structures at the top - that new long ladder/log ride is excellent. And they've only just started. Rock work and drainage is very demanding and time consuming. But I think that a year from now Pangor will be a much better trail than it was at the start of this season. And look at CBC - riders are raving about it, yet there's still drainage/rock work to be done. Same with Boogieman. I road Leopard for the first time this summer, and was in awe of the rock work. Solid building, and in the right places. Great trail that the novice and experienced riders can both enjoy. That's what a lot of the trails should be like. Sure, Boogieman being an expert trail makes sense - but without other trail options, such as Severed, C-Buster, or Pangor, it's going to get hit by novice riders. So, the options are to provide good trails for novice and itermedidate riders, or to make all trails rideable for novice/intermediate riders. The former is preferable, and hopefully it will work out that way so that you don't get experienced riders barreling down the run into novice riders.

One thing I'd like to see on Seymour is a stunt area. A small area that has some skinnies, various heights of ladder drops (2ft, 3ft, 4ft, 5ft), a couple teeeter-totters, small gap jump, etc. Riders want to practise these type of stunts to improve their skills for the trails. Without having a "play" area, they'll do it in the middle of a trail. Better to have people off in an area that is safer, and hopefully, easier to maintain.

Anyways, that's my 6 cents worth.

Those are some really good points Switch, but i have a couple things to add, firstly: for beginners, a couple good places to go to get comfortable with skill developement would be places like UBC, Burnaby mtn, Stokes Pitt or the Delta Watershed. These are good areas that offers beginners a wide range of trails that will help bring their skills up before they decide to venture up to the shore.

Secondly, a really good beginner ride on the shore is Leopord Trail to Krikim Krankim to whatever the next trail is called, that's where i would take a newby

Originally posted by Tool **
Those are some really good points Switch, but i have a couple things to add, firstly: for beginners, a couple good places to go to get comfortable with skill developement would be places like UBC, Burnaby mtn, Stokes Pitt or the Delta Watershed. These are good areas that offers beginners a wide range of trails that will help bring their skills up before they decide to venture up to the shore.

Secondly, a really good beginner ride on the shore is Leopord Trail to Krikim Krankim to whatever the next trail is called, that's where i would take a newby **

Good suggestions. Another friend who started riding this year lives on the west side, and he's been riding at UBC a lot. I've not been to the Delta watershed, but would like to some time and see what it is like. Same with Burnaby Mtn. But I don't know where Stokes Pitt is. Since I live at the bottom of Seymour, that's where I mostly ride.

I've done the Leopard-[HTML_REMOVED]Crinkum-[HTML_REMOVED]Kirkford-[HTML_REMOVED]Griffin a few times, and really like it. Flows really well, and yes, if anyone asked about an easy trail on Fromme, that's where I'd point them.