Yet another Expresso thread

I rode the shore for about 6yrs through the late 90's, early 00's. On a good day, 60% of Circus, Seventh, GMG, Pink Starfish, ect… I've since moved away from the shore, traded the big bike for 5"x5" XC bike and am enjoying an injury and repair bill free life now.

I was up on the shore this passed weekend with an old friend to hit up the trails. Wow things have changed. All the trails are still there (excluding Circus). All the land marks are the same, all the big dead logs still the same. But although all the trails are where they used to be, they are different trails now.

Building technics have gotten better, bike suspension has gotten better, which in turn has evolved the trails to resemble something quite different to what they once were. Its been smoothed out and in some cases, sections have been dumbied down (from what they used to be). The advancement of bike tech and building prowess has enabling riders to "flow" through the trails at a much higher speed where once it require a lot of skill at a much slower pace. Picking your line. Im not saying riding the shore doesn't require skill, its just defferent to what it used to be. If you rode the shore in the 90's, you know what Im talking about.

This is all fine. The sports moving forward. I'm older, my priorities and ride style have a changed, its the progression. Paying a morgage, kids, wife, work… all make it ok with me to say thats not my thing anymore.

But after ridding 3 laps of Grouse and hitting up almost all the trails from back in the day. I have to say the best trail I like that was soo remenisent of what I remember Grouse being, was Expresso. It had to be my favorite for the day. Slower, techy and methodical. I was still able to ride everything, no dabs. It was just fun. Quite different then everything else currently on the mountain.

Although Im not a local rider anymore and wont be frequenting Grouse all that often, my two cents: don't change the feel of the trail that it has right now. High speed flow isnt' needed. Keep it techy with all the small (6" to 10") elevated skinnies and rebuild some of the larger stunts. That trail needs something to differentiate itself from Seventh, Ladies, Pipeline and Natural High.

Rode it for the first time today. Was fun, but I'm not a woodwork fan, generally speaking.

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This is my all time favorite Fromme trail. Something about the methodical, somewhat slow techie bits up top that let you take in that "old school" feeling. Then the middle ground lets you build some speed with some fun playful bits and THEN that sharp and steep right hander sends you into a white knuckle death run. I'd prefer this overall progression and feel be retained. Nothing like finishing a trail with soiled pants.

I hope to make this my first trail day this year. Gotta clear it with the fam!

Oh and the trail definitely has flow….HT, DH rig it's all the same.

This just in. I'm in.

I rode the shore for about 6yrs through the late 90's, early 00's. On a good day, 60% of Circus, Seventh, GMG, Pink Starfish, ect… I've since moved away from the shore, traded the big bike for 5"x5" XC bike and am enjoying an injury and repair bill free life now.

I was up on the shore this passed weekend with an old friend to hit up the trails. Wow things have changed. All the trails are still there (excluding Circus). All the land marks are the same, all the big dead logs still the same. But although all the trails are where they used to be, they are different trails now.

Building technics have gotten better, bike suspension has gotten better, which in turn has evolved the trails to resemble something quite different to what they once were. Its been smoothed out and in some cases, sections have been dumbied down (from what they used to be). The advancement of bike tech and building prowess has enabling riders to "flow" through the trails at a much higher speed where once it require a lot of skill at a much slower pace. Picking your line. Im not saying riding the shore doesn't require skill, its just defferent to what it used to be. If you rode the shore in the 90's, you know what Im talking about.

This is all fine. The sports moving forward. I'm older, my priorities and ride style have a changed, its the progression. Paying a morgage, kids, wife, work… all make it ok with me to say thats not my thing anymore.

But after ridding 3 laps of Grouse and hitting up almost all the trails from back in the day. I have to say the best trail I like that was soo remenisent of what I remember Grouse being, was Expresso. It had to be my favorite for the day. Slower, techy and methodical. I was still able to ride everything, no dabs. It was just fun. Quite different then everything else currently on the mountain.

Although Im not a local rider anymore and wont be frequenting Grouse all that often, my two cents: don't change the feel of the trail that it has right now. High speed flow isnt' needed. Keep it techy with all the small (6" to 10") elevated skinnies and rebuild some of the larger stunts. That trail needs something to differentiate itself from Seventh, Ladies, Pipeline and Natural High.

Matt might be on to something here.

Bobsled is a very fun trail in its own right.

Ladies Only, in its rebuilt state is extremely fun for most. (Me included) It's amazing how FAST Ladies is now compared to before. I'd even venture a guess that it might be twice as fast for the average joe. Although as a side note I seem to remember Dangerous Dan doing Circus, Starfish, Groove back in day in 24 mins…that guy's an animal, so perhaps lap speed isn't the best indicator.

So maybe Expresso shouldn't mirror the Ladies formula? Perhaps it should have it's own flavor? As it certainly did previously.

Just food for thought here guys, you are all doing awesome work and I'm sure the results will speak for themselves. Don't let a couple of Valley boys get ya fired up.

Serious props to the TAP crew. :clap:

I was up on the shore this passed weekend with an old friend to hit up the trails. Wow things have changed. All the trails are still there (excluding Circus). All the land marks are the same, all the big dead logs still the same. But although all the trails are where they used to be, they are different trails now.

Yep, the trails really have changed weather we like it or not. Sterl sums it up:

"Sterling remembers clearly what Pre-Reap and Reaper meant to him as a rider before he picked up a camera, “I was, on numerous occasions, left mentally exhausted by one of Dangerous Dan’s trails. I remember being relieved and stoked when I finished Pre-Reaper, so much so that some days I would do just that one trail and be done for the day. I wouldn’t need to keep riding so I’d peel out and ride down the road. It was so technically challenging that it required so much concentration and was just so scary.” "

Those were the days eh?

Does anyone see the volume of riders that ride Fromme these days especially on any given weekend????? The sport is'nt what it was back in the day so if you keep living in the past how the hell are gonna move into the future. For trails to be open they have to be sustainable and thats what anyone thats part of TAP is looking to accompolish to create the best of both worlds. I respect Cam for reaching out to the riders and asking on input, nobody wants every trail to become the same but on the other hand there are some moves on Expresso that are expired. So what is the solution then? We cant leave it in the state it is in now sometimes in life we need a compromise and thats what I feel we need here.

Does anyone see the volume of riders that ride Fromme these days especially on any given weekend????? The sport is'nt what it was back in the day so if you keep living in the past how the hell are gonna move into the future. For trails to be open they have to be sustainable and thats what anyone thats part of TAP is looking to accompolish to create the best of both worlds. I respect Cam for reaching out to the riders and asking on input, nobody wants every trail to become the same but on the other hand there are some moves on Expresso that are expired. So what is the solution then? We cant leave it in the state it is in now sometimes in life we need a compromise and thats what I feel we need here.

I don't think anybody is arguing against sustainability, at all. Cam and TAP (and I've even spoken to Digger about it) have all indicated that that plan is to maintain the flavor of the trail while increasing its sustainability. I'm not seeing a whole lot of negativity in the comments at all, but rather people speaking up about their perceptions of what that flavor actually is. For some, the woodwork is key and for others it's about overall slow(ish) tech, while some don't like the trail and would like to see it molded to something different altogether.

Obviously there will be compromise. Some lines will get likely get easier and some will likely be removed altogether. If a beloved feature is decomissioned for the sake of sustainability, then so be it. They key is that those deciding how to modify the trail are given as much data as possible to make informed decisions. This information could be the difference between ripping out a line they think nobody likes anyway and just creating a ride-around/alternate line. It's a progressive way to approach trail work and I think it's great that Cam and TAP are taking into account the feelings of the people that actually ride this trail and even the ones that don't.

It looks like I've managed to escape that family reunion in Manning, so I'm planning to be there for this trail day.

I used to ride Espresso a lot in the early 90's. On a hardtail with minimal fork travel and rim brakes. That trail had a much different surface back then. One was able to use brakes without skidding on all the steeper sections because it wasn't so rutted rooted and bumpy. Better brakes and more suspension kept the challenge of that trail as it changed approximately the same. Last time I rode it it had become pretty crappy. The lines some trails take can be challenging to maintain, we all know that. More use means more rocked in and more wood to prevent the trial from rutting down the opposite side of the world. I don't see that as dumbing down but a return to what it was more or less. If you find it too easy then I would suggest other trials or better yet, get a smarter bike for the dumber trail to get that challenge you want.

I see the challenge and attraction to rutted out trails for sure. It is similar to moguls on a ski run. Some will seek them out, others avoid them. Ski hills groom them out on many runs and snowfall buries them and they come back. Trails on the other hand do not reinstate themselves by any natural process unless the trail is abandoned for a significant amount of time. I don't think a practical alternative would be to routinely close trials and open a new one 25 meters over that follows a similar line.

Yep, the trails really have changed weather we like it or not. Sterl sums it up:

"Sterling remembers clearly what Pre-Reap and Reaper meant to him as a rider before he picked up a camera, “I was, on numerous occasions, left mentally exhausted by one of Dangerous Dan’s trails. I remember being relieved and stoked when I finished Pre-Reaper, so much so that some days I would do just that one trail and be done for the day. I wouldn’t need to keep riding so I’d peel out and ride down the road. It was so technically challenging that it required so much concentration and was just so scary.” "

Those were the days eh?

indeed. every ride was an adventure; whether you'd finally rail said stunt(s), or get spanked (damn you mother tongue!). not so much interested in the 'if you screw this up, you WILL get hurt' level of consequential trail building any more (not that much exists), but made for some fun memories.

Does anyone see the volume of riders that ride Fromme these days especially on any given weekend?????

Not only that, but notice the trails that are attracting the most riders -[HTML_REMOVED] Bobsled, Lower Ladies, Pipeline. I would argue that it's because they're smoother, faster, and (in my opinion) more fun than tech/gnar/eroded trails. The sport has grown significantly and I think most of the growth is by riders seeking out a new school style of trail, which on this board seems to equate to 'dumbed-down' (which I don't agree with, the challenge changes from a 'slow' to 'fast' one). In the interest of spreading these types of riders across more than just a few trails, I would think that 'new-schooling' a portion of the trails would be a good thing.

Not only that, but notice the trails that are attracting the most riders -[HTML_REMOVED] Bobsled, Lower Ladies, Pipeline.

Lower Ladies? I'm sure you meant to say Ladies, because Lower Ladies does not strike me as the type of trail that people riding Bobsled are interested in.

speaking of which, digger has done a fine job of buffing LL.

and: is anyone doubling up the end of the roller coaster? it looks like this was the intention, but fear the case…

Lower Ladies? I'm sure you meant to say Ladies

You are correct sir. Ladies Only is what I meant

I'd be interested in knowing how people define a section of trail to be 'unsustainable'. To me it means a line that channels water in such a way that the trail is getting washed out, a section of trail that is getting wider and wider (due perhaps to puddles that people ride around, I can't think of anything else offhand). Old structures can be dangerous, or in danger of becoming dangerous because of rot, or a lack of maintenance but I'm not sure I'd call them unsustainable.