Yet another Expresso thread

I definitely fall into the category of people that love this trail. Honestly, I didn't think the entrance ladder was that bad (I rode the trail on sunday and monday last week), but other than a very brief glance each time I hit the trail to make sure the ladder is actually still there, I haven't looked closely at it in ages. That picture is definitely a little dated, as the missing rung has been replaced.

I really like the idea of restoring the other entrance. I've long looked at that, a little disappointed that the spot isn't being used.

The next spot that needs some work is just a few seconds further down. After that starting ladder, you do a sharp left down some rocks and then a right. After this right is a spot that needs some better drainage. It's rock underneath, but the dirt that's there turns into a mud pit for days after any rainfall.

I'm pretty excited to see how this goes. While I've got a lot of love for E[x/s]presso, I have to admit the last few years haven't been so good to it. That said, other than a few obvious defects, I thought rode pretty well on monday.

The rung was still missing this past Thursday and I'd bet a pound of nails that it hasn't been replaced in the last two days - but you never know.

Sounds like we'll be seeing you on the 27th Scott. It'll be good to have you along!

The rung was still missing this past Thursday and I'd bet a pound of nails that it hasn't been replaced in the last two days - but you never know.

Sounds like we'll be seeing you on the 27th Scott. It'll be good to have you along!

Actually, we're both right, Cam. The rung is missing, of course, but has been replaced with a fairly solid rock. I should have been more concise in my previous post. It's a moot point, anyway, as the ladder is hardly sustainable and I agree that it's due for replacement. As for my attendence, I hope to be there. I'm not sure if that's the weekend I'm in Manning for a family reunion, but will surely come to lend a hand if I can.

Good thread, by the way.

I believe we have a responsibility to keep maintaining the "shore" on the shore (to coin a phrase from the rest of the world that refers to woodwork).

However, that woodwork needs to be done in the right places (not heavy braking downhills that tears the rungs out as in the above location), and done with the proper wood - split cedar. I've stopped using round logs as stringers, opting for split 4"x6" or larger stringers. The woodwork on CBC and Salvation is a testament to being able to build wood that lasts. It's more work, but worth it.

The landowner (DNV) wants to get away from wooden structures for liability and maintenace reasons. This is the terms of reference we have to work with. To create a structure it is not as simple or quick as everyone thinks either. NSMB only has 5 days as well as MEC.
When Expresso was originally built, there were no structures.

I agree with this. I prefer trails with minimal woodwork because they seem to provide a more enjoyable ride. Perhaps it's just my riding style or abilities, or the fact that I learned to ride in Squamish, but I view less woodwork as a good thing.

I have been looking into this point for 3 years now and have based my efforts on that alone. From what I have seen and personally done on the shore,squamish and coquitlam I have determined that dirt in a certain instant does stand better in non fall line trail. Yes even rock work will eventually wear away the soils in which hold it together will disperse, especially if the grade is steep no surprise Yes cribbed in sections still count in this. Yes on high brake point areas rock will hold very well after a long period of time but with any trail work it needs maintenance. To think everyone will be braking and riding the exact same line in which the trail was created is just a joke I have seen people trying to force people from braided lines onto rock to make them ride a certain line fail and end up doing what? More maintenance. The masses brains still see a trail bed thats fully armoured as a battlefield and they stay off it. Yes dirt is a heck lot more maintenance but with a trail that is a certain grade I do not see a problem with it. Does that mean rock work is not needed? Hell no it is needed our terrain determins that for sure certain sections need to be armoured but not a whole trail. When a trail is bedded in properly and it uses new standard building techniques it can withstand the masses. Dont think so? Well I have about 20 pages of photos that have worked in the sea to sky corridor and its not as different terrain that we have here. I was once told to never come into a situation with my mind closed because if you do your oppinion will be based on facts someone else created not your own. I am still learning but every situation has a different answer and as a trail builder its my job to figure out what needs to be done to create a sustainable trail not what is right or wrong.

Could not agree more.

If I'm in town, I look forward to seeing everyone on the 27th!

I suggest you rename it "Tall extra hot extra foam triple shot soy caramel machiatto." I guarantee that'll piss people off more than any amount of trail updates.

I will be happy to have another buffed option down Fromme. If changes to the character have to be made, that's just life. No doubting the team cred here; go at it!

1. Sigh. The entrance is fine as-is. Replace a rung and done. If we only have 5 days then focus on more important things. Sustainable doesn't mean replacing things ahead of their time.

2. Drainage, good.

3. First 2 planks are fine, leave them. Add one more over stream and done. Remove the existing skinnies if you must but why not leave them for those want them (I ride the easier second one sometimes.

4. Planks that serve little purpose and have zero consequences, leave them. Slippery wood happens in the rainforest. Gold beside them, OK.

5. Broken bridge, no argument, goodbye.

6. Decayed stunt. The first half of this, using the huge fallen log, is low liability and should be kept. Second half is too scarey for me, and if in bad shape, OK get rid of it.

7. Noooooo! Please leave the woodwork over the swamp! This is a great feature in good shape. Build a bypass if desired, because yeah it is difficult to get around if you don't want to take the bridge. Taking this out would be a shame, a make-work dumbing down with no purpose.

The rest - ok. Sorry to sound all negative, but this trail is very good as is, with its own unique challenges - I love it.

I don't mind the bombed out aesthetics on the lower half, it gives the trail its own character. It is probably the ugliest trail on the hill, but one of them has to be.

I'm tending to agree with pipeline here. You gotta leave some gnar on classic shore trails (that includes steep ladders, 4 foot drops to flat, skinnys and nearly unrideable sections of gnar). It is a Black Diamond shore trail, which historically means at least as hard as a double black anywhere else.

I would also be concerned that with the high attention to detail that Digger and Jerry are known for, and with only 5 days of work, the focus should be highly prioritized. I don't think 5 days is enough time to go over it section by section to do a Ladies style revamp.

Multiple bombed out lines should be permanently blocked first (think unremovable cedar type fencing). Then pull out the ladders that are actually fallen apart. Then maybe work on changing existing and not yet dead ladders. I think trails should change, but entrance stunts should stay as historical elements. Yes that first ladder wasn't always there, but neither was Hotel Vancouver or any other historical element. Entrance stunts are also key to discouraging beginner riders from getting in over their head.

Things will never be truly sustainable on the shore, unless we want to close everything and replace it with mellow, bench cut, hiking paths.

I would not tolerate DNV pushing to remove ladder bridges on the shore.

Unfortunately I am no longer down there to help with trail work or advocacy on the shore so all you get is my opinion. Take it for what it is.

Pipeline probably rides 29'er hardtail. Expresso is totally punched with ZERO ZERO ZERO flow, you're out of your mind bro :)

I rode Expresso today for the first time in years and I had a great time.

I'd say I agree with pipeline. My view is that it has flow, a good degree of technical difficulty, some decaying stunts that should be ripped out or repaired and a lot of decent woodwork that should stay. The trail might not have originally had a lot of woodwork, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't have any now. If we took the view that trails should remain the same as when they were originally put in, we'd spend the 5 days shoveling loam/duff onto the trail so we could pretend it's 1995. For what it's worth I enjoy that ladder bridge at the start and the low skinnies over the wet sections.

And scotter, the rung in that first ladder is gone, but someone's jammed a rock in there, so that's probably why you haven't noticed the gap.

To clarify, Expresso is to be Tapped by two crews; nsmb.com/Rock Shox and MEC.

On top of that the Trail fund that we established with the support of nsmb (MEC provides the funds and we administer it by doling out the cash to worthy projects/builders) will be directing funds to this project as well. The majority of this money ([HTML_REMOVED] $10,000) will be paid to Digger. Digger will also be the maintainer for the MEC trail days so we know we can all work together well.

I agree with many of the suggestions above and I'm hopeful we can preserve some of the current character of the trail while improving the flow, sustainability and the overall experience. A challenge is that we do have a responsibility to the landowner (DNV) and their wishes. It's a delicate balancing act but I remain optimistic.

Thanks for the input thus far and I look forward to more.

Pipeline probably rides 29'er hardtail. Expresso is totally punched with ZERO ZERO ZERO flow, you're out of your mind bro :)

One man's no flow is another man's flow I guess. With Executioner totally smoothed out now, Ladies buffed as hell, Pipeline paved… I think there is a strong case in the name of variety to be gentle with Expresso. I love those other trails but really enjoy the challenge that Expresso offers.

One man's no flow is another man's flow I guess. With Executioner totally smoothed out now, Ladies buffed as hell, Pipeline paved… I think there is a strong case in the name of variety to be gentle with Expresso. I love those other trails but really enjoy the challenge that Expresso offers.

Well, good point. Perhaps TAP should focus on Starfish instead? Myself, and many others would love to see that one running again.

With Executioner totally smoothed out now

LOL, I rode Executioner yesterday on a hardtail with the wrong sized wheels and it didn't feel all that smooth!

Good to see Digger getting a good chunk of money. I didn't realize that there were two different crews TAPing Expresso.