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Work on Fromme Climbing Trail

Sept. 23, 2019, 9:37 a.m.
Posts: 1781
Joined: Feb. 26, 2015

Posted by: oldmanbuilder

the climbing trail is better than ever and frankly those who are complaining give me the mental image of a bunch of spoiled entitled brats.  sure saying this won't earn me any friends on here but no fucks are given.

think about how many hours of work have gone into this trail over the past 5 years.  think of all the blood sweat and tears. 

think about how much better it is than the boring road climb (give me a fucking gun to end it). 

think about how some of you are complaining about a 10-20 m loss in vertical, on the rolling break section.  who cares.  if you have any fitness it's only 10-15 mins longer than the road.  and instead of a boring road climb you've been on single track the whole time.

i guess the need to save 10-15 mins on the climb is the same need that drives people to e-bikes.  all about the descent.

the Fromme climb is one of the best trails on that mountain, excluding the old-school classics like Ladies, etc.  without a doubt the best trail improvement on Fromme in the past 15 years.  unless you like riding blown out too tight switchbacks of Espresso (meh).

downvote me to oblivion now please

As stated before, it's hard to get the go ahead to build new trails. I think NQ is great, hardly anyone rides it, it's punchy in places but will take that single track climb over the road always. It's not just about how fast I can get to the top, it's just being out there. We all have an opinion on a better route but I that's what the NSMBA was able to wrangle for build permission, and I'm good with that.

Sept. 23, 2019, 9:55 a.m.
Posts: 172
Joined: June 17, 2016

When I park on Braemar Rd, I take either No Quarter, or I go via Dempsey Connector -> Hoskins Rd to Mountain View Park -> Griffen -> King of the Shore -> Mtn Hwy. Both take more or less the same time depending on my fitness of the day. Parking lot + road for a quick rip during the week. With so many options I'don't really see the need for additional climbing trails to be honest.

I really like No Quarter as it is right now. IMHO the "formerly challenging" bits were only challenging because they were energy and soul sucking, not because they were technically difficult. If I didn't clean a section, it was because I was tired. I enjoy it much more now that some sections have been filled in with dirt. I also like the short downhill sections because they allow me to recover a bit.

However, right now most of the top section of the climbing route has turned into tire-sucking peanut butter 🙄

Sept. 23, 2019, 10:43 a.m.
Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 2, 2018

I agree with the folks who see it more as an xc trail that also happens to get you to the top. It's part of the ride, not just a means to an end that you need to dispense with in order to "start " your ride (ie mountain highway).

Sept. 23, 2019, 12:18 p.m.
Posts: 8
Joined: March 2, 2017

A big shoutout to Old Man Pete for the 100's of hours he's volunteered on the climber the past few years. You could tell him what you think of the new work, but he's too busy digging, riding, and not giving a f*ck. Something we should all learn to do more of around here.

If you need a double black techy climb with no elevation loss go ride up the ditch on the side of the road.

Sept. 23, 2019, 2:12 p.m.
Posts: 196
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Climb not hard enough for you? Follow Dave around, he's got the tech. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B2xHl5LnzuA/

Sept. 23, 2019, 5:36 p.m.
Posts: 138
Joined: May 13, 2014

Having ridden Fromme for 39 years I can tell you that the mantra was always about "whatever do what was necessary for the up to get to the down".  This meant the service road, which is nice now, but has not always been so.  Yes it is boring.  Yes it is mandatory, but if you wanted to go down, it was either that or push up St. Georges or other (for me for a long time I pushed up Lower Crippler/Oilcan and then went up the road).  Not only the bike but where I parked mandated that route.

The climbing trail is a Godsend.  First, it is not really easy, so long as you are not on an Ebike (not here, folks) and it essentially separates the mountain.  Those that ride the West and those whom ride the East (and obviously park at the parking lot).  I notice a distinct difference in the rider.

No, the climb is not perfect.  I find it a bit long winded and tedious at times.  But if you think about a more direct route, whom among you would envy a 30 degree or 45 degree climb?  And the scenery is nice.  Very lucky that we live where we do.  It could easily be desert.

And the climbing trail eases pressure off of the East side, not only in terms of parking but usage.  I remember not long ago that parking on Dempsey/Braemar was easy, no other people around.  Funny and fast how times change.  

I remember the old days of the tech uphill of Old Buck.  I don't mind the work of the up for the downhill but not at the expense of the downhill.  You want tech uphill?  Try Eagle and go up the Lungbuster.  Tell me how it goes.  Even Burke is much more civil today; at one time babyheads was the coin of the realm and the brutality of the steepness was an afterthought.  And I saw a group of gentlemen in their 60s do it (on hardtails) many years ago.  I couldn't imagine it at the time.  

Related, we have it easy and thanks to all for making the climbing trail happen.  Best thing to happen to Fromme in a very long time.

Sept. 23, 2019, 9:39 p.m.
Posts: 86
Joined: Aug. 22, 2011

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: oldmanbuilder

i guess the need to save 10-15 mins on the climb is the same need that drives people to e-bikes.  all about the descent.

People are actually saying the opposite, they're complaining that it's been made easier and isn't enough of a challenge anymore.

Boring? If people find it boring, just do it faster.

Sept. 23, 2019, 10:01 p.m.
Posts: 3
Joined: July 10, 2014

This climb trail is great and keeps getting better. More than anything else, it’s opened up the place to a whole new kind of rider: one who likes a good singletrack climb too. Love the work and am looking forward to more.

Sept. 23, 2019, 10:16 p.m.
Posts: 1541
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: Captain-Snappy

Boring? If people find it boring, just do it faster.

I'm going to guess not so much boring but simply regret at the loss of some technical sections, and I understand that point of view. When you get used to having to deal with the challenge of a particularly hard section, even if you lose more than you win you still like the idea of seeing if you can win. When that challenge gets removed, it's disappointing. It's the same on any trail really, whether it's up or down. I think it comes down to the mindset of the rider and you can't say one way is better than the other, it's just how someone perceives that patch of dirt.

Sept. 23, 2019, 11:24 p.m.
Posts: 967
Joined: May 11, 2018

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: Brocklanders

Syncro, the yellow routes are the climb trail idea? Straight up the center, up the contour face with no switchbacks? That would be a huge cardio challenge, sign me up.

Yeah, the idea somewhat follows what craw mentioned. It's just a line scrawled in with Paint.

- the basic line gets you back up to the meat of the lower Fromme trails - Ladies, Expresos, etc and access to Leppard, Crinkum, Kirkford
- the offshoot to the east lets you get in a Skull loop or back towards the parking lot and a finish on Bobsled or Floppy Bunny instead of BP all the way
- the offshoot to the west gets you back up top with far less road riding and makes use of existing trailbed

The main line up the centre would have switch backs to deal with the grade, some would be tight and some would be more open. It would have tech sections and paved sections. Overall it would be a challenge, but something that most people who could do the road up from the yellow gate to 7th in 45 minutes or less could manage. Think of a nice combo of challenge sections and recovery sections. For fun there could be some switchback shortcut sections to help make your heart exlode if that's what your after. The nice thing is you then have three approaches to get up Fromme, road, this new climbing route and the current No Quarter route, part of which could be incorporated to get to the BP and the bottom of Expresso. A huge advantage for everyone - residents, hikers and bikers - is the ability to take advantage of parking opportunities along Dempsey including a lot under the power lines where no trees would need to be cut down. This would spread out traffic all across the bottom flank of Fromme instead of having most of it sequestered by the lot on Mtn Hwy.

ps - updated the map a bit

This is the single best idea I have seen in a month. It really must happen.

Sept. 24, 2019, 12:58 p.m.
Posts: 883
Joined: Nov. 18, 2015

Yeah is that route to the 2nd an actual GPS track or is it some freehand pipedream? I love that idea too. Looks to me like an actual GPS route, but I wonder how it deals with the private land of the naked people?

And re the Fromme climbing trail - its beautiful - you can find some techy sections on it if you want to skip the go arounds but in my view its 1000% better than the road.....I find that most of my climbs these days have significant hike-a-bike sections so I find it refreshing myself to find a windey, single track route that doesnt meanander too much that is still a hefty climb (Im usually pretty beat by the time Im at the top). I like it more now than I did a few years ago when it was technically harder. I get to keep my pace going easier without disruptions of f'ing up segments..and Im not hiking some god forsaken out and back with the bike on my back!!! WIN!!!


 Last edited by: Ddean on Sept. 24, 2019, 1 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
Sept. 24, 2019, 2:23 p.m.
Posts: 1541
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: Ddean

Yeah is that route to the 2nd an actual GPS track or is it some freehand pipedream? I love that idea too. Looks to me like an actual GPS route, but I wonder how it deals with the private land of the naked people?

And re the Fromme climbing trail - its beautiful - you can find some techy sections on it if you want to skip the go arounds but in my view its 1000% better than the road.....I find that most of my climbs these days have significant hike-a-bike sections so I find it refreshing myself to find a windey, single track route that doesnt meanander too much that is still a hefty climb (Im usually pretty beat by the time Im at the top). I like it more now than I did a few years ago when it was technically harder. I get to keep my pace going easier without disruptions of f'ing up segments..and Im not hiking some god forsaken out and back with the bike on my back!!! WIN!!!

It's a thoughtful freehand pipedream and it's something the DNV should be all over as it solves a whole host of issues and gets bikes off of a good chunk of the BP. It would be in their best interests to do something like that.

ps - tweaked the line to the second switchback a bit to take it a bit further away from Buck Nekked's Hot Tub Pub party palace.


 Last edited by: syncro on Sept. 24, 2019, 2:54 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
Sept. 25, 2019, 10:01 a.m.
Posts: 196
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: Brocklanders

Syncro, the yellow routes are the climb trail idea? Straight up the center, up the contour face with no switchbacks? That would be a huge cardio challenge, sign me up.

Yeah, the idea somewhat follows what craw mentioned. It's just a line scrawled in with Paint.

- the basic line gets you back up to the meat of the lower Fromme trails - Ladies, Expresos, etc and access to Leppard, Crinkum, Kirkford
- the offshoot to the east lets you get in a Skull loop or back towards the parking lot and a finish on Bobsled or Floppy Bunny instead of BP all the way
- the offshoot to the west gets you back up top with far less road riding and makes use of existing trailbed

The main line up the centre would have switch backs to deal with the grade, some would be tight and some would be more open. It would have tech sections and paved sections. Overall it would be a challenge, but something that most people who could do the road up from the yellow gate to 7th in 45 minutes or less could manage. Think of a nice combo of challenge sections and recovery sections. For fun there could be some switchback shortcut sections to help make your heart exlode if that's what your after. The nice thing is you then have three approaches to get up Fromme, road, this new climbing route and the current No Quarter route, part of which could be incorporated to get to the BP and the bottom of Expresso. A huge advantage for everyone - residents, hikers and bikers - is the ability to take advantage of parking opportunities along Dempsey including a lot under the power lines where no trees would need to be cut down. This would spread out traffic all across the bottom flank of Fromme instead of having most of it sequestered by the lot on Mtn Hwy.

ps - updated the map a bit

When do you start building? Got all the permits lined up? Environmental assessments? Must have taken a number of years to get that all lined up. Who will take over Salvation maintenance while you are building this?

Sept. 25, 2019, 11:45 a.m.
Posts: 1541
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: earleb

Posted by: syncro

It's just a line scrawled in with Paint.

When do you start building? Got all the permits lined up? Environmental assessments? Must have taken a number of years to get that all lined up. Who will take over Salvation maintenance while you are building this?

Did you miss the part where this is just an idea and an open ended discussion about something that would benefit all stakeholders?

Sept. 25, 2019, 12:08 p.m.
Posts: 196
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

I know. 

Always endless ideas and discussions but very few taking action (not aimed at you directly). If someone wants to see better connectivity they need to do more than just talk about it on a forum.

If there is one thing I learned in my 5 years on the board and 7 years now organizing the Fivers and events is that if someone doesn't step up themselves and push forward what they want, it's not going to happen. To get ANY project done it needs a single champion pushing it forward at every meeting, once the ball is rolling they also need to be involved in keeping it rolling. 

While I was still on the board I walked and marked a line with Digger to connect the BP to the 2nd. It was verbally presented to the DNV back then, but it really hasn't been pushed forward much since then. The current board has had their own projects to push forward and challenges to face, but my point is that if anyone really feels passionate about it they need to step up and take it on.

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