Why the IMBA hating

Anyone remember the IMBA trail day to reroute ewok village on Eagle a few years ago with Joey? I think that trail has gone back to the forest.

actually it's alive and well, although it was closed for a couple of years due to a number of different issues, mostly political.

Can you have sustainable and challenging together? If you need to sanitize it so a pebble won't be displaced while riding it, we might as well just take up riding the seawall.

Can you have sustainable and challenging together?

I firmly believe yes. It takes more effoort but it can be done.

God I hate that term "sustainable" because it gets thrown around improperly all the time. Every trail is sustainable if you throw enough maintenance at it. The Trans Canada Highway is a frickin "trail" if you think about it. And that highway needs repaving and work all the time.

I think people think sustainable trail means a trail that is well built and requires almost no maintenance. We all know that is a fantasy as all trails that get used require work to keep them from changing into more eroded trails.

God I hate that term "sustainable" because it gets thrown around improperly all the time. Every trail is sustainable if you throw enough maintenance at it. The Trans Canada Highway is a frickin "trail" if you think about it. And that highway needs repaving and work all the time.

I think people think sustainable trail means a trail that is well built and requires almost no maintenance. We all know that is a fantasy as all trails that get used require work to keep them from changing into more eroded trails.

To me a 'sustainable' trail is one that will not erode naturally. For example, a trail that avoids slide hazards, does not cut thru natural drainage paths and debris chutes, or bridge over wetland areas. Unfortunately, most ttf's qualify as unsustainable as they will rot away. Also, seldom can a fall-line trail fit these sustainable criteria.

As stated, no trail can ever be 'sustainable' in the sense that it can take traffic and not require maintenance.

Good examples of sustainable trails can be found in deer paths. Nnot that the deer are particularly awesome at trail building, but the trails that last are the ones that take a sustainable path.

actually it's alive and well, although it was closed for a couple of years due to a number of different issues, mostly political.

That's good to hear. There were quite a few criticism on the trail alignment and work done on that day.

It was PISSING rain on that trail day and there was still a lot of water on the route despite its alignment.

Good examples of sustainable trails can be found in deer paths. Nnot that the deer are particularly awesome at trail building, but the trails that last are the ones that take a sustainable path.

Cows make the best trails!

The trails on the north shore mountains were all 'built' more then 15 years ago.

And the North Shore is a different environment to the Woodlot and other area entirely, it sees much higher volume, and I think a slightly different type of rider. The trails at the woodlot are well maintained and have a highly motivated, very functional group of builders who seem to have a strong vision (or at least the appearance of all this from an outsiders POV). One huge problem I see with the IMBA approach is it doesn't take into account all circumstances, I can see it would be valuable if you were starting to develop a trail network in a fresh area, but a lot of established trails with dedicated builders will go beyond the scope of the IMBA guidelines, and that's a good thing.

Anyone remember the IMBA trail day to reroute ewok village on Eagle a few years ago with Joey? I think that trail has gone back to the forest.

I was going to point that one out. Randy's, B[HTML_REMOVED]A/Ewok Village, were at the time, very technical structure filled trails, when the housing develpment encroached a re-route was necessary. The re-route was built by IMBA, with a strong showing from the newly formed TORCC, and considering the crap weather and the amount of work needed, enough people showed up and we got the trail roughed out. No follow up work was done to my knowledge, and the trail re-route at the bottom of Randy's (A steep technical trail), was a swampy, twisting XC trail that was no fun to pedal. It's now more or less reclaimed by the forest, and a new exit to Randy's has developed that is really nice, and even though it dumps into the housing development (although the lower backyard trail has now re-opened).

IMBA's idea of trail building is to build easy boring shit. Period. The reason why the BC area is THE BEST PLACE to ride in the world is because the trails here were built without IMBA's bullshit "guidelines". As for the "world renowned trailbuilders coming here and laughing at the original trail lines," well let them go back to their flatlands with 4' wide buff "singletrack" and roll on it with their 29ers and talk about how shitty the trails on the shore are. There's a reason why the North Shore is imitated the world over, and no part of that reason is IMBA.

-m

IMBA's idea of trail building is to build easy boring shit. Period. The reason why the BC area is THE BEST PLACE to ride in the world is because the trails here were built without IMBA's bullshit "guidelines". As for the "world renowned trailbuilders coming here and laughing at the original trail lines," well let them go back to their flatlands with 4' wide buff "singletrack" and roll on it with their 29ers and talk about how shitty the trails on the shore are. There's a reason why the North Shore is imitated the world over, and no part of that reason is IMBA.

-m

Yah, that's the core of the issue right there. Take some of these guys to ladies only, crash 'em on the rocks at the a-frame, let 'em fall in the lake at the teeter and then bitch all the way home about how poor digger's line choice was…

And fwiw ladies is a fairly sustainable trail, as they go.

IMBA's idea of trail building is to build easy boring shit. Period. The reason why the BC area is THE BEST PLACE to ride in the world is because the trails here were built without IMBA's bullshit "guidelines". As for the "world renowned trailbuilders coming here and laughing at the original trail lines," well let them go back to their flatlands with 4' wide buff "singletrack" and roll on it with their 29ers and talk about how shitty the trails on the shore are. There's a reason why the North Shore is imitated the world over, and no part of that reason is IMBA.

-m

I love you man :D

It's now more or less reclaimed by the forest, and a new exit to Randy's has developed that is really nice, and even though it dumps into the housing development (although the lower backyard trail has now re-opened).

oops, sorry Sharon, I thought you were talking about what we call the lower backyard trail. I wasn't aware of another trail that was built and left to disappear.

Those who have ridden with me know of my love for trails that can be ridden with equal flow whether one is riding a mountain bike or a shopping cart…

-m

oops, sorry Sharon, I thought you were talking about what we call the lower backyard trail. I wasn't aware of another trail that was built and left to disappear.

Yeah, the trail went off to the right at the bottom of Randy's and is still there, but overgrown and the new school cuts the bottom part of the trail off (how's that for sustainability!). The trail was never used because it was crap, unfinished and a total mismatch for what was above it.

Wow, this is a very passionate subject for tones!!! thats a good thing to see. I wish I could respond right now but I'm the only one at work right and there is much to do. I need time to get the thoughts organized but i will try to answer a bunch of questions when I get home tonight.