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Why the IMBA hating

Dec. 12, 2008, 2:35 p.m.
Posts: 862
Joined: June 15, 2007

hehehe, Jay Hoots (Krantz) has done more for this sport than most, he's entitled to his opinion whether or not you (or I) agree.

I was talking about IP Freely, who comes into a thread late, doesn't agree with the discussion, and asks for it to be deleted. It sort of negates the entire point of a discussion forum. I don't really want him banned, but it is a good flipside to his post.

Jay Hoots is cool though, I like that guy.

One of these is not like the others.

Dec. 12, 2008, 2:50 p.m.
Posts: 14543
Joined: Dec. 16, 2003

I was talking about IP Freely, who comes into a thread late, doesn't agree with the discussion, and asks for it to be deleted. It sort of negates the entire point of a discussion forum. I don't really want him banned, but it is a good flipside to his post.

Jay Hoots is cool though, I like that guy.

not getting the connection eh, did you think I pulled Jays name randomly out of a hat?

…..IP Freely is Jay Hoots

Dec. 12, 2008, 3:13 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Aug. 9, 2003

I was talking about IP Freely, who comes into a thread late, doesn't agree with the discussion, and asks for it to be deleted. It sort of negates the entire point of a discussion forum. I don't really want him banned, but it is a good flipside to his post.

Jay Hoots is cool though, I like that guy.

awesome…

River City Cycle Club - www.rivercitycycle.ca

Comox Valley Mountain Biking - www.cvmtb.com

Dec. 12, 2008, 3:18 p.m.
Posts: 8242
Joined: Dec. 23, 2003

i love it when people get outted.

Dec. 12, 2008, 4:39 p.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

I think IMBA represents an excellent baseline standard from which new builders can start to learn the basics. However, as with any standard, users also have to understand inherent limitations and applicability. On the west coast of BC with the the combination of extremely wet weather and rider's preference for steeper trails, the IMBA standards can quickly fall short and site specific experience is required.

I think that the IMBA info can be good when it comes to building info. However it's simply a resource like any resource. The builders have to pick and choose what will work for them. Meaning how it will fit into that builders vision for the trail.

Think about it. Go find a new trail and have 4 builders show up to come up with a plan and you will come up with 4 different approaches to the problem.

There is nothing written in stone of how a trail is to be built. What the goal is to make the terrain and trail work together for a fun ride. And a builder will use various methods to achieve that goal either IMBA suggested or what locally works.

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

Dec. 13, 2008, 4:35 p.m.
Posts: 2387
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

Interesting read. I wasn't gonna wade in until I saw which way the wind was blowing.

Does this mean I'm growing up?

Anyway, it seems to me that IMBA is an association. Therefore, if there's a problem with them and you're not a member, you'll just have to suck salty balls. It's easy to make IMBA more responsible and reflective of our regional differences: step up.

The thing is, we need representation on the prov. and fed. level. Our local clubs are totally killing it as far as taking care of the trails in their respective regions. Totally positive, totally on path forward. However, with a Prov. Trails Strategy in the works, it's not doing us a lot of good to be fractured like this. Divide and conquer. One thing you can count on from IMBA: they will promote our message if we tell them what it is.

So they did some crap work. Yeah, I'll agree to that. I also felt that when they first showed up they were in general pretty arrogant. Coming from SoCal and trying to tell us what to build? Get bent, buddy. However, they're adopting a more progressive stance, and the trail clinics are a way of making that happen.

But if the LOCAL builders don't want to be a part of it, then the IMBA days will continue to suck. I mean, if the event is run by someone who has no local knowledge, what do you think is going to happen?

What IMBA is really good at is getting permission to do stuff. I think that's a pretty big thing in the new reality that is public recreation.

Imagine this….

Say you've got a trail that was informally built and has developed spontaneously over the years. It was built by some stoner dads trying to get outtta the house on weekends in the 90's or something, it doesn't really matter. Except that it was never well planned out, and missed tons of cool terrain features, and in no way can handle the present load of traffic on it. Bring on IMBA, and suddenly you've got the opportunity to re-route and enhance the trail to take advantage of those missed opportunities. Under the scope of terrain and resource management, many scenarios become possible and positive.

Oh, and I disagree with IPfreely on the bashing. It's totally legit bashing and serves to illustrate the situation. The term "sustainable" is fraught with peril. All our trails are sustainable with enough resources. 10[HTML_REMOVED]#37; is a joke. Erode this……


37 YEARS ON THE BIKE :: 1981-2018

Dec. 13, 2008, 5:38 p.m.
Posts: 2835
Joined: Nov. 22, 2002

^^^yo mr. smoke. Well put on the way IMBA interacts and what they are trying to accomplish/ do.

and about eroding the rock, if you had read the book then you would know that it says that the 10[HTML_REMOVED]#37; rule can be broken in specific circumstances, this would be one of them. You can build a trail straight down the hill if it is granite/ rock because the time it takes for it to be eroded is a very long time, just be careful of that run out. you will defiantly see some erosion there.

www.knollybikes.com

:canada:

Dec. 13, 2008, 8:25 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: June 25, 2003

Jay Hoots is cool though, I like that guy.

LOL I'll give you a sympathy rep for being clueless.

Sucks about shotgun, we rode it last Sunday in Woodlot and noticed ALOT of trucks all over the logging road. Then after second run we ran into those guys but haven't seen that monster being born yet, just a big FREAKING bomb crater on the left of the original line.

I kind of want to take back my "thanks guys, I appreciate it"…

oh hai!

Dec. 14, 2008, 2:22 p.m.
Posts: 9
Joined: March 5, 2007

I realise I'm wading into an area I don't fully understand, so please forgive me if this question is naive or foolish (or addressed already - this thread is pretty long :) ).

But, after reading this stuff, I'm left wondering: is there an opportunity here?

Given that IMBA seems to have inroads with the provincial government, and assuming that it's made up of decent human beings who happen to be lacking some local knowledge, is there an opportunity for one or more IMBA people, and one or more local builders, to walk through the work that was just done and talk about how it could be done better next time?

And, if so, what can I as J. Random Mountain Biker do to help make that happen?

Dec. 14, 2008, 2:54 p.m.
Posts: 1213
Joined: Feb. 23, 2004

Can someone ban IP Freely ? He sounds like a christian preaching about the bible (whister guidelines). His post reminded me of my born again sister.

…issues?

"Walk a mile in another man's shoes. Then, you'll be a mile away from him and have his shoes."

http://www.valleyvetservices.com
www.vmta.ca

Dec. 14, 2008, 2:58 p.m.
Posts: 1213
Joined: Feb. 23, 2004

I'm curious, why didn't you guys just say no?
perhaps offered up some alternative places/trails for the clinic to be held?

Good question. I spoke with the MOTCA rep the day before the clinic and suggested that building on Shotgun or any other Woodlot trail without strong support of the builders was fraught with problems. I suggested that the course be held on Vedder Mountain as there are numerous areas that were essentially "blank canvas" available there. I think it came down to the convenience of the BCIT facility and easy access to established trail that set this juggernaut in motion.

"Walk a mile in another man's shoes. Then, you'll be a mile away from him and have his shoes."

http://www.valleyvetservices.com
www.vmta.ca

Dec. 15, 2008, 9:36 a.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: May 1, 2006

Threads like this make this

Kamloops Bike Riders Association
Build It.__Ride It.

Dec. 15, 2008, 10:24 a.m.
Posts: 1922
Joined: Nov. 22, 2002

Threads like this make this [HTML_REMOVED]#8220;discussion forum[HTML_REMOVED]#8221; very dangerous.
Give people a keyboard equipped with some anonymity and an audience, and watch the bashing and negativity fly. Get everyone in a room together and then let[HTML_REMOVED]#8217;s see[HTML_REMOVED]#8230; oh sorry, never mind [HTML_REMOVED]#8230; it[HTML_REMOVED]#8217;s the same 20[HTML_REMOVED]#37; of folks that showed up again[HTML_REMOVED]#8230;

i have no problem with you standing beside imba in this debate BUT…

if you're talking about my response to the recent trail clinic, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. i've done the paperwork, spent hours on e-mails, built websites, organized trail days, and sunk 1000s of hours building and maintaining area trails. ask around about volunteer dedication and long-term involvement for the area in question before you spout off again about this specific instance. local builders should've had a REAL say in what went down on the trails they built, and that didn't happen. we definitely didn't build the line to become a repository for poorly-informed trail building clinics.

our complaints are legitimate and well-documented because the work falls far short of being acceptable, given the long-term trail building efforts that have been made in the area, and paid reps for an international biking organization should be held to task for shitty work, just like unpaid volunteers would be.

the internet is a great leveller in that it allows people and groups with extremely limited budgets to publicize instances where they feel agrieved. that's what's going on here. i'll agree that there's a bunch of garbage posts in this thread, but it's pretty easy to filter the wheat from the chaff.

"It's, like, so much fun."

Dec. 15, 2008, 11:24 a.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: May 1, 2006

sigh…
See this is why it's a dangerous tool.
Apparently my own frustrations and emotions took over my own response and the underlying point was lost. So I'll try again:

Robot, I wasn't directing anything towards you or any of the other relevant players in this thread. I didn't quote anyone's post and it was a general statement for all the readers.

This issue needs to be discussed, and yes, the IMBA folks need to be "held accountable" but not roasted and slammed on an open forum for all to read. Hopefully some real world follow up and discussion with the appropriate people has already taken place.

I'm trying to suggest that negative bashing of an organization, a local club, a group of builders (beginners or experts), or anyone's efforts to make trails better is hurting everyone and pointlessly raising tempers and emotions.

If 20 or 30 people have read this thread and then choose to not support IMBA with a membership, or not show up at a club's trail day due to fears it could be lame or teaching bad techniques, then how has this been productive?

Kamloops Bike Riders Association
Build It.__Ride It.

Dec. 15, 2008, 12:47 p.m.
Posts: 862
Joined: June 15, 2007

Perhaps the Internet isn't a place for you…

One of these is not like the others.

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