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Why the IMBA hating

Dec. 9, 2008, 7:06 p.m.
Posts: 1130
Joined: June 29, 2005

Just to clarify,

What BC calls XC is what Ontario calls freeride.

Could not agree more. I was living in New England for a bit and some of the things that were presenting themselves on one of the trails we were building - such as 4-5 foot drops to natural transition were being scoffed out of consideration even though they fit the flow of the trail beautifully. Instead we got switchback go- arounds for anything that even resembled an obstacle.

Thanks for posting the Whistler Standard document. I had not seen it before.

Dec. 9, 2008, 7:21 p.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

Could not agree more. I was living in New England for a bit and some of the things that were presenting themselves on one of the trails we were building - such as 4-5 foot drops to natural transition were being scoffed out of consideration even though they fit the flow of the trail beautifully. Instead we got switchback go- arounds for anything that even resembled an obstacle.

Thanks for posting the Whistler Standard document. I had not seen it before.

After further thought. I think that's the problem especially in North America when refering to the Whistler Standard. And especially in some states and provinces.

The problem is the ingrained fear factor of anything that isn't no more then 20 inches high. Especially when one adds the word lawsuit and the other word liability. Which in some places causes more non action then anything else. And once the word liability is mentioned it seems that chainsaws get fired up.

Sure in an ideal world the Whistler Standard would be great. But the sad reality is that there is more then one standard of trail building. Out here we will call it the Ontario standard which is governed by fear and lawsuits.

This is where IMBA can help. As these areas don't need as much help building trail as dealing with this fear factor.

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

Dec. 9, 2008, 7:26 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Aug. 7, 2003

I was up Woodlot on Sunday and walked the portion of Shotgun that was being worked on at around 12:00pm and could not believe how much of the trail was still torn up considering it starts to get dark on the trails by 4:00pm. As mentioned previously in the thread the amount of work that was taken on was simply too much. I am by no means an expert trail builder but have been to enough trail days to realize that they simply could not do a good job based on the size of the project that was being attempted versus the number of people that were working. When I walked by one of the guys working on the drop/ bridge section shown in the photo on the first page was talking about a drop with hip type landing. I guess he was over ruled.

Dec. 9, 2008, 7:27 p.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

Those who have ridden with me know of my love for trails that can be ridden with equal flow whether one is riding a mountain bike or a shopping cart…

-m

I didn't know that it was possible to rail a shopping cart down Espresso.

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

Dec. 9, 2008, 7:56 p.m.
Posts: 14564
Joined: Dec. 16, 2003

Instead we got switchback go- arounds for anything that even resembled an obstacle.

isn't that what they consider "sustainable?"

Dec. 9, 2008, 8:53 p.m.
Posts: 1130
Joined: June 29, 2005

isn't that what they consider "sustainable?"

Yeah, but it has nothing to do with runoff, erosion or anything like that. More to do with "legally responsible."

"Is our defense sustainable before a judge?"

Dec. 9, 2008, 9:16 p.m.
Posts: 1065
Joined: Oct. 23, 2003

10[HTML_REMOVED]#37; grade rule is wack.

What is a sustainable trail? Should a trail that's built in a park be held to the same standards as a trail that's built on logging land that's going to be clearcut in 10-20 years anyways? I have a hard time taking bike erosion complaints seriously when your talking about land with clearcuts and mudslides.

Dec. 9, 2008, 10:01 p.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

Yeah, but it has nothing to do with runoff, erosion or anything like that. More to do with "legally responsible."

"Is our defense sustainable before a judge?"

That's the problem. The ideal is what is done and seen in BC. But sadly in parts of Canada riders want that but lose out as everyone is fearfull of lawsuits.

Because of this alot of building is done by secret.

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

Dec. 9, 2008, 10:23 p.m.
Posts: 3989
Joined: Feb. 23, 2005

A sustainable trail is one that you can't ride fast enough to skid the trail.

Please let me demonstrate the ride around; really it's no trouble.

Dec. 9, 2008, 11:09 p.m.
Posts: 6328
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

A sustainable trail is one that you can't ride fast enough to skid the trail.

That puts all the graveled paths the District is putting in OUT!

Ever since they graveled the Baden Powell between the road to Rice Lake and Lynn Creek its the best trail for high speed rippin'!

Looking to ride the shore but don't know where to go?

Get a copy of the Locals Guide to North Shore Rides!

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Dec. 10, 2008, 5:18 p.m.
Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

Would someone please erase this retarded bashing thread!

There are three posts worthy of being on here (based on contributing to global trail knowledge) the rest is a lot of people admitting they don't know what sustainable trails are and then jumping on a bash wagon…

Jeeze.

I will see if we can get IMBA or someone to say super sorry for building in the Woodlot builders back yard and not telling them. Holy heck, I am sorry for them and I have nothing to do with it! You guys can call a spade a spade but don't bash very unbecoming.

Seems that a thread like this also pulls out other bashers that want to join in… Sweet there is brain time I will never get back again…

I can surely think of ten gazzillion things that you can complain about other than people actually out on the trail building according to proven guideline… If any of you have spent the time to read the books then you would not be writing and bashing in this post…. ***I can see it now, every one rolling their eyes thinking they already know it, precisely the reason the whole thread hurts to read….. The obvious and overwhelming knowledge (and common sense) of trailbuilding on this thread is amazing… might I quote …"10% grade rule is wack, what is a sustainable trail?" --[HTML_REMOVED] doh?

Yo Ontario, stop fueling the fire… Don't make me have to spank you with a stanky dread!

Dec. 10, 2008, 5:24 p.m.
Posts: 1612
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Would someone please erase this retarded bashing thread!

There are three posts worthy of being on here (based on contributing to global trail knowledge) the rest is a lot of people admitting they don't know what sustainable trails are and then jumping on a bash wagon…

Jeeze.

I will see if we can get IMBA or someone to say super sorry for building in the Woodlot builders back yard and not telling them. Holy heck, I am sorry for them and I have nothing to do with it! You guys can call a spade a spade but don't bash very unbecoming.

Seems that a thread like this also pulls out other bashers that want to join in… Sweet there is brain time I will never get back again…

I can surely think of ten gazzillion things that you can complain about other than people actually out on the trail building according to proven guideline… If any of you have spent the time to read the books then you would not be writing and bashing in this post…. ***I can see it now, every one rolling their eyes thinking they already know it, precisely the reason the whole thread hurts to read….. The obvious and overwhelming knowledge (and common sense) of trailbuilding on this thread is amazing… might I quote …"10% grade rule is wack, what is a sustainable trail?" --[HTML_REMOVED] doh?

Yo Ontario, stop fueling the fire… Don't make me have to spank you with a stanky dread!

how many world cup dh courses or trails similar to this has imba put together?

Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity ~ Seneca

Dec. 10, 2008, 6:01 p.m.
Posts: 1922
Joined: Nov. 22, 2002

There are three posts worthy of being on here (based on contributing to global trail knowledge) the rest is a lot of people admitting they don't know what sustainable trails are and then jumping on a bash wagon…

with all due respect, i disagree completely. what this thread shows is that it's pretty difficult to work with the volunteers who maintain a resource if you don't make an effort to include them in some of the planning for these things because… it also provides riders and trail builders who have zero budget for marketing, communication, and lobbying with a way to voice their opinions and frustrations when they are effectively left out of the process. it gives volunteers like me the opportunity to voice our displeasure and dissatisfaction about being excluded from a process we were supposed to be an integral part of.

there's no way in hell would we have approved a shotgun trailday. it's the busiest trail at the woodlot and receives traffic from every trail on the mountain. i personally received a call the afternoon before the clinic asking for permission. what on earth was i supposed to say? screw yourselves imba and motsa? at least we tried to accomodate their requests, even on short notice. i hoped we were going to get better than we got and we didn't. however, i'm sure the trails will be taken care of by locals who actually ride there regularly.

i still support imba's poltical position as an advocate for mountain bikers. i'm not sure i can support trail building clinics in areas that i'm involved with directly. and, if it matters at all, i've read the imba books, and i distributed a number of them to area builders at my expense. what i learned in those books is not what i saw on the trail.

"It's, like, so much fun."

Dec. 10, 2008, 6:12 p.m.
Posts: 14564
Joined: Dec. 16, 2003

If any of you have spent the time to read the books then you would not be writing and bashing in this post…. ***I can see it now, every one rolling their eyes thinking they already know it, precisely the reason the whole thread hurts to read….. The obvious and overwhelming knowledge (and common sense) of trailbuilding on this thread is amazing… might I quote …"10[HTML_REMOVED]#37; grade rule is wack, what is a sustainable trail?" --[HTML_REMOVED] doh?

I know the guys who are out there fixing the mess the IMBA clinic made couldn't give a shit about something in a book. They've been pretty measured in their response but I don't think I'd be out of line saying there's probably some desire to insert that book into a body orifice. This thread isn't about a book, it's about IMBA putting on a clinic, fucking up a trail and volunteer labour having to shut down the section and clean it up.

Maybe you should talk to the guys who built/maintain the trail before your come in shooting from the hip because you post is pure bullshit.

If IMBA has a set of standards, they aren't up to Woodlot standards.

Dec. 10, 2008, 6:23 p.m.
Posts: 7566
Joined: March 7, 2004

I can surely think of ten gazzillion things that you can complain about other than people actually out on the trail building according to proven guideline…

I think the phenomenal way the woodlot builders build and maintain trails has been proven as well.

Perhaps with some real time working on a given trail, IMBA's methods result in something that is sustainable, but what happened that weekend at the woodlot was not.

This whole situation is a real shame that goes beyond the damage to the trail that the local builders are fixing. How do you think those builders now feel about working with the provincial government, the ones who organized this clinic? How do you think those builders feel about local organizations who attended the clinic, and those volunteers who tried to make the best of it but knew it was going to turn out badly?

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