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Why has Pink Starfish been decommissioned?

July 30, 2016, 11:23 p.m.
Posts: 14587
Joined: Dec. 16, 2003

I'm sorry but trails that require you to be on your brakes all the time and don't allow you to exceed speeds of 8 km/hr do not build skill.

Just gonna have to stop in and call bs on that.

When did going fast become the only measurement of skill? When did racing become the defining skillset of riding bikes.

The funnest thing about mountain biking is the sheer variety of the sport. Some trails you get your success just cleaning the line. Others are a speed test.

Remember all those early nsx vids with that skill-less no talent Simmons guy making the unrideable lines look smooth? Ya I guess those trails don't build skill.

July 31, 2016, 7:01 a.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Dec. 3, 2004

Remember all those early nsx vids with that skill-less no talent Simmons guy making the unrideable lines look smooth? Ya I guess those trails don't build skill.

Yeah I remember the first one where the guys were all going so slow it was OTB central:rolleyes: Comparing Wade to you or I is a non-starter, he makes everything look good. And FWIW most everything I remember of his video segs he needed speed to jump or clean his line. I'm not suggesting every trail has to be like Bobsled, or that speed is the only defining skill of MTB but it is a massive component, as is braking and cornering, 3 things that a lot of old school "Shore" trails don't help you with.

Shed head!

July 31, 2016, 8:21 a.m.
Posts: 2292
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Yeah I remember the first one where the guys were all going so slow it was OTB central:rolleyes: Comparing Wade to you or I is a non-starter, he makes everything look good. And FWIW most everything I remember of his video segs he needed speed to jump or clean his line. I'm not suggesting every trail has to be like Bobsled, or that speed is the only defining skill of MTB but it is a massive component, as is braking and cornering, 3 things that a lot of old school "Shore" trails don't help you with.

speed on a relatively smooth line is pretty easy, but speed on a rough line is a lot harder. you're constantly having to scan the terrain, find your line and work the bike all at the same time. in order to ride fast on rough lines you're constantly having to process a ton of info. like you said yourself, wade needed speed to clean some of those lines.

i agree that those first vids with guys going otb was pretty common but you have to consider the bikes they were riding too, more like road bikes than the current mtb's. the speed is there on a lot of those trails, it's just harder to find.

Opinion is the lowest form of intelligence. It requires no accountability, no understanding.
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live
in another's world. ~ Bill Bullard

July 31, 2016, 9:27 a.m.
Posts: 932
Joined: Nov. 18, 2015

I'm sorry but trails that require you to be on your brakes all the time and don't allow you to exceed speeds of 8 km/hr do not build skill. Finally the Shore has some trails that you can actually get up to a proper speed on which IMHO requires more "skill" than skidding down a fall line trail with no corners or "flow". '

PS there are sooooooooo many other places to ride which offer better climbs, views, berms, drops, jumps, flow, tech, gnar what ever the hell you want to call it that since I've stopped riding the shore I do not miss it at all.

You can take a very skilled XC rider and put them on the Shore of yesteryear or even today and on some trails they're going to look like its their first time on an MTB. Does that mean that they havent developed any skills? No, they just dont have those skills. We can debate whether or not trials riding in the woods on an MTB is mountain biking, and everyone will have a different opinion.

There's a lot of breadth to riding on the Shore. It ranges from trials riding on the sketchiest segments to XC riding. Perhaps its "glory days" are behind it, but thats probably only because the rest of the world has developed its own riding communities and now its one of many.

Perhaps other areas have developed more to your liking - but the Shore isnt dead. Im constantly amazed by how many bikes are being transported around on cars on the Shore. There's a very strong community here who are using the local trails. Live somewhere else and you're buddies with everyone who rides simply because not many do. To me it seems that everyone does here. The NSMBA may not be to your liking but you have to admit that they've built an impressive organization that seems to be working well with the local government and land owners.

July 31, 2016, 10:05 a.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Dec. 3, 2004

You can take a very skilled XC rider and put them on the Shore of yesteryear or even today and on some trails they're going to look like its their first time on an MTB. Does that mean that they havent developed any skills? No, they just dont have those skills. We can debate whether or not trials riding in the woods on an MTB is mountain biking, and everyone will have a different opinion.

There's a lot of breadth to riding on the Shore. It ranges from trials riding on the sketchiest segments to XC riding. Perhaps its "glory days" are behind it, but thats probably only because the rest of the world has developed its own riding communities and now its one of many.

Perhaps other areas have developed more to your liking - but the Shore isnt dead. Im constantly amazed by how many bikes are being transported around on cars on the Shore. There's a very strong community here who are using the local trails. Live somewhere else and you're buddies with everyone who rides simply because not many do. To me it seems that everyone does here. The NSMBA may not be to your liking but you have to admit that they've built an impressive organization that seems to be working well with the local government and land owners.

I personally really like what the NSMBA has done with all their trail work and never said the Shore is dead, it's just at the bottom of my list for places to ride for a variety of reasons, namely proximity and trail diversity. It's getting there but slowly as its hard with volunteers, builders, representative organizations, and local government all agreeing on something.

PS. Some of the fastest riders on tech stuff on the Shore are dedicated local xc pros. They are just flat out fast and good on anything.

Shed head!

July 31, 2016, 10:59 a.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

I'm sorry but trails that require you to be on your brakes all the time and don't allow you to exceed speeds of 8 km/hr do not build skill.

Nope no skills needed here,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJc_t30viYY

Look how easy it looks…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYIKfEU8yl8

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

July 31, 2016, 8:28 p.m.
Posts: 0
Joined: Dec. 3, 2004

Nope no skills needed here,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJc_t30viYY

Look how easy it looks…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYIKfEU8yl8

Trails not trials mang. Totally different discipline.

Although you should've shown me this one to shut me up lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K3w7zfyrL0

Watch below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eagElg8YnZY

Skill.

http://www.pinkbike.com/video/254205/

Speed and skill on the shore no less. And save for the rock roll on Cambodia and the Twoonie Drop, everything looks like fairly new school building to me.

Shed head!

Aug. 2, 2016, 7:53 a.m.
Posts: 1781
Joined: Feb. 26, 2015

[QUOTE= PS there are sooooooooo many other places to ride which offer better climbs, views, berms, drops, jumps, flow, tech, gnar what ever the hell you want to call it that since I've stopped riding the shore I do not miss it at all.[/QUOTE]

Really? Other places to ride? Better? I have been saying that we really need to crank up our climbs, views, berms, drops, jumps, flow, tech, gnar what ever the hell you want to call it quality for years, if we don't people will never ride here again….The views, especially the views, but no one listens to me.

Sounds like it's too long a drive anyways. Take care. Namaste.

People always ask me what's the phenomenon
Yo what's up? Yo what's goin' on- Adam Yauch

Aug. 2, 2016, 10:50 a.m.
Posts: 132
Joined: Feb. 8, 2016

I think we need to separate fact from opinion. Comparing the current Fromme trail map with this one from 2003, the following Advanced to Extreme trails have been lost:

Squeaky Elbow
The Dump
Bitches Brew
Pink Starfish
Groovula
Walk in the Clouds
The Flying Circus
Air Supply

Jerry Rig and 38DD aren't on that 2003 map, but they could be added to that list (maybe there are others as well?). You could also say that trails like Natural High and Digger are due for a difficulty downgrade. I've only been riding the shore since October (although I've been dreaming of it since the late 90s), so besides a few of those trails that I recognize by reputation, I have no idea what most of them were like or why they were closed. Regardless, this confirms that there has been a net loss of difficulty on the shore (or at least on Fromme). I don't see how you could look at it any other way. Is the gnar still out there as some people say? Sure, but only a fraction of what there used to be.

How much that matters is a matter of opinion. Climbing trails, technical XC trails (eg. sticks and stones), parking lots, blue runs, etc. make the shore far more accessible and I think that's a good thing. It legitimizes the sport and the more people we have out there riding bikes the better. There are only so many resources to go around, and it would appear that the NSMBA's recent focus has been on accessibility above all else. Considering the focus in the past seems to have been about making super gnarly trails above all else, it's probably not a bad thing to spread the love around. Having said that, I would like to know what the NSMBA's stance is on preserving, resurrecting or creating new challenging trails. The lower end of the spectrum needed some love and it got it, but the current trend of losing challenging trails is pretty damn scary.

Aug. 2, 2016, 10:53 a.m.
Posts: 132
Joined: Feb. 8, 2016

And for the record, I personally wish that the focus was still about making gnarly trails. It breaks my heart to watch videos that show what the shore used to be like compared to what it is today. Objectively, it's not better or worse, it's just different. Subjectively, it's worse because I'm a trials rider and tech features are out while smooth flow is in :(

The idea that if a trail is too easy then you should just ride faster is overly simplistic. Adding speed to make an "easier" trail difficult is one way to challenge yourself, but it is not the same as being able to ride a hard trail period. I'm not saying that doing one is harder or better than the other, you can push your limits either way, but they are different.

Aug. 2, 2016, 11:08 a.m.
Posts: 1
Joined: Jan. 8, 2015

DangerousDave, a couple comments on your list of trails. Boundary still exists, and has seen some recent trailwork, although some of the fun wood features have been removed. I think you would have really enjoyed this one:

I think St. Georges was always considered a hiking trail and it hasn't gone anywhere. Someone can correct me if I'm mistaken.

Was Quarry Court ever a good trail? I remember riding down there a couple years ago and it wasn't very interesting.

I haven't completely given up hope for Pink Starfish. While the recent permits have been rescinded for the time being, I know the NSMBA is trying to work out the issues with DNV so that the trail can be hopefully be re-opened at some point in the future.

Aug. 2, 2016, 11:13 a.m.
Posts: 1
Joined: Jan. 8, 2015

You would probably like this feature as well. I rode it about a month ago, so hopefully it's still there! I think it's near the bottom of Pink Starfish, or somewhere on Boundary. I usually ride those trails consecutively so I can't remember.

Aug. 2, 2016, 11:13 a.m.
Posts: 2292
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

I think we need to separate fact from opinion. Comparing the current Fromme trail map with this one from 2003, the following Advanced to Extreme trails have been lost:

Quarry Court
Squeaky Elbow
St. George's
The Dump
Bitches Brew
Pink Starfish
Boundary
Groovula
Walk in the Clouds
The Flying Circus
Air Supply

your list isn't quite what you make it out to be.

Quarry Court - hiking trail
Squeaky Elbow - died a natural death, never really ridden
St. George's - hiking trail
The Dump - died a natural death, never really ridden
Bitches Brew - this was a loss, but there was nobody to maintain it really
Pink Starfish - up in the air still
Boundary - still alive
Groovula - decom'd years ago, but never saw a ton of traffic
Walk in the Clouds - died a natural death
The Flying Circus - died a natural death
Air Supply - died a natural death

the only real loss to closure has been bitches and starfish, but with both of those trail it was really the lack of upkeep that let them disappear.

Opinion is the lowest form of intelligence. It requires no accountability, no understanding.
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live
in another's world. ~ Bill Bullard

Aug. 2, 2016, 11:14 a.m.
Posts: 132
Joined: Feb. 8, 2016

DangerousDave, a couple comments on your list of trails. Boundary still exists, and has seen some recent trailwork, although some of the fun wood features have been removed. I think you would have really enjoyed this one:

I think St. Georges was always considered a hiking trail and it hasn't gone anywhere. Someone can correct me if I'm mistaken.

Was Quarry Court ever a good trail? I remember riding down there a couple years ago and it wasn't very interesting.

I haven't completely given up hope for Pink Starfish. While the recent permits have been rescinded for the time being, I know the NSMBA is trying to work out the issues with DNV so that the trail can be hopefully be re-opened at some point in the future.

Ah so that's what the "H" next to Quarry and St. Georges was referring to, thanks for pointing that out. I must have left Boundary in by mistake. I've updated my list.

That Boundary line does look sweet! Just need a time machine now.

Aug. 2, 2016, 11:20 a.m.
Posts: 132
Joined: Feb. 8, 2016

your list isn't quite what you make it out to be.

Quarry Court - hiking trail
Squeaky Elbow - died a natural death, never really ridden
St. George's - hiking trail
The Dump - died a natural death, never really ridden
Bitches Brew - this was a loss, but there was nobody to maintain it really
Pink Starfish - up in the air still
Boundary - still alive
Groovula - decom'd years ago, but never saw a ton of traffic
Walk in the Clouds - died a natural death
The Flying Circus - died a natural death
Air Supply - died a natural death

the only real loss to closure has been bitches and starfish, but with both of those trail it was really the lack of upkeep that let them disappear.

Thanks for clarifying. "Closed" was the wrong term to use as I suspected some of the trails had just been naturally reclaimed by the forest due to lack of use/maintenance, but it's interesting to see just how many.

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