Why are all the trails so clapped and dying

We rode Upper Cripp on Wednesday and I was surprised by how much I loved it. It was one of my faves back in the day and it still runs great. Someone has been doing a little work to keep the water off - and there are a few places that could benefit from a little love, but it runs like it always did, minus some of the wood work.

It's going back on my playlist.

Absolutely. Before this week I can't remember the last time I rode it. Must be at least 6 years ago. So cool to have a new/old option back in rotation.

Maybe its due to lack of skill but I don't have any desire to master something like Grannies… in the paved vs. gnar spectrum I feel like Grannies is off to the side in the "awkward" category. When I think of steep/gnar I think of stuff like lower ladies, lower cripper, lower skull, etc. but Grannies has a much different vibe than those trails IMO.

To quote a saying I heard long ago from Smoke I think " The trail is as smooth as the rider makes it." and I've believed that to be true for a long time. The rider creates the flow of the trail with his skill, so instead of whining about a trails lack of flow get more skills and the flow will come. Dam I wish I had more time to ride!

To quote a saying I heard long ago from Smoke I think " The trail is as smooth as the rider makes it." and I've believed that to be true for a long time. The rider creates the flow of the trail with his skill, so instead of whining about a trails lack of flow get more skills and the flow will come. Dam I wish I had more time to ride!

I think it might be a little arrogant to call people out on their riding abilities for whom you've never met. This is a great thread. Lots of information has been put out there for people to absorb. It appears that our biggest hurdle in North Vancouver is with the land managers. I believe a lot of people have been wondering where the focus was being put on trail maintenance and development. You see what's happening in Squamish and wonder why we seem to be lagging behind. Now we know a little better thanks to this thread. Starting a conversation in the quest of knowledge is a good thing. Has nothing to do with a persons skill level. You might be a better mountain biker than me, you might not. Just because you might be perfectly content with riding grannies for the rest of your days and I crave a trail in the same vein as Lola or Platinum or Treasure Trail on Fromme, doesn't make you right or me wrong.
The idea that we had was to do some crowd funding to build a trail like that on Fromme. Possibly on Starfish or Jerry Rig or something. Hire Digger or Ewen or whomever to go to town on it. Well now we have a better understanding on what the hurdles appear to be.
I still want a jumpy,drop,flowy trail on Fromme! Anyone else? Any good idea's on how we can make it happen? We know the hurdles, now how about we talk about how we can overcome them

Thanks!
PS.. We all love bikes and our north shore mountains. We are strong in solidarity

I think it might be a little arrogant to call people out on their riding abilities for whom you've never met. This is a great thread. Lots of information has been put out there for people to absorb. It appears that our biggest hurdle in North Vancouver is with the land managers. I believe a lot of people have been wondering where the focus was being put on trail maintenance and development. You see what's happening in Squamish and wonder why we seem to be lagging behind. Now we know a little better thanks to this thread. Starting a conversation in the quest of knowledge is a good thing. Has nothing to do with a persons skill level. You might be a better mountain biker than me, you might not. Just because you might be perfectly content with riding grannies for the rest of your days and I crave a trail in the same vein as Lola or Platinum or Treasure Trail on Fromme, doesn't make you right or me wrong.
The idea that we had was to do some crowd funding to build a trail like that on Fromme. Possibly on Starfish or Jerry Rig or something. Hire Digger or Ewen or whomever to go to town on it. Well now we have a better understanding on what the hurdles appear to be.
I still want a jumpy,drop,flowy trail on Fromme! Anyone else? Any good idea's on how we can make it happen? We know the hurdles, now how about we talk about how we can overcome them

Thanks!
PS.. We all love bikes and our north shore mountains. We are strong in solidarity

not calling them out but stating a basic truth, I crash and burn more then most and still believe if I rode better trail would be smoother. Oh and we once had a jump trail on Fromme called air supply but it gone now .

not calling them out but stating a basic truth, I crash and burn more then most and still believe if I rode better trail would be smoother. Oh and we once had a jump trail on Fromme called air supply but it gone now .

OK. Great. Anything constructive to add to this conversation? If you're content with the trails thats awesome. This thread might not have your interests in mind. And yes I remember Air Supply. Hey neat! Lol. I think a lot of people are interested in the type of trail I speak of. Ideas? Anyway, off for a ride! Later

this isn't meant to pick on you, but this post epitomizes what the whole "paved" vs "gnar" debate is about.

there is a unique skill set that is specific to riding "north shore gnar" type of trails. you either have it or you don't and until you develop those skills riding these types of trails can and most likely will be a frustrating and un-enjoyable experience. however, once you do develop these skills you will find the "flow" that was previously hidden in the terrain. it is not an effortless experience, but there is a sublime sense of ease that is reached when you are finally able to link up all the pieces of the puzzle into one blissful and continuous effort that leaves you puckered yet grinning from eat to ear. there is no right or wrong with this, only the act of being one with the trail.

Unfortunately the paved trails that most ride DON'T develop the skillset you allude to that is needed for the gnar. Sad but true. I don't see the newest AM bikes with the riders atop them going down Grannies or Upper Crippler anytime soon. Why? They have had little exposure to rocks, roots or "non-flowy" trails that they not only can ride but EXPECT. This is important to remember. People are use to what they see on a routine basis. Smoothe, flowy and groomed might work for other parts of the world but my 33 years experience has shown me that this is not the case in NV. Rain erodes, removes and exposes. That is nature. Groomed trails will eventually erode due to rain, despite work. Moreover, the amount of work that will be needed to keep the New Espresso in the shape that it is in will be monumental; in fact, it will need work monthly. I don' t see this with Grannies or Upper Crippler. You reap what you sow; if you make riders EXPECT smoothe trails then all that is gnar will be passed by. If you incorporate some gnar as MANDATORY to the trail, then you will build these skills. Currently, I see NO MANDATORY gnar in any new groomed trail, or at least any gnar that has no bypass. Good luck.

OK. Great. Anything constructive to add to this conversation? If you're content with the trails thats awesome. This thread might not have your interests in mind. And yes I remember Air Supply. Hey neat! Lol. I think a lot of people are interested in the type of trail I speak of. Ideas? Anyway, off for a ride! Later

of course they want those kind of trail because they don't want to put in the effort to learn to ride but instead need instant self gratification. Just want to talk about how fast they ripped er up…. find a bike park.

Moreover, the amount of work that will be needed to keep the New Espresso in the shape that it is in will be monumental; in fact, it will need work monthly. I don' t see this with Grannies or Upper Crippler.

Expresso needs frequent minor upkeep because it is likely the most ridden trail on Fromme by a longshot. If Grannies or Crippler saw that kind of traffic, they would probably be beyond repair.

Plus, once a trail like Grannies or Crippler becomes eroded, how do you restore it to it's previous state? Very difficult. With a trail like Expresso, you just throw down a bucket of gold.

Furthermore, the alignment on Expresso is designed to properly drain. Avoiding water coursing down the trail reduces erosion.

I know that the NSMBA is moving to designs like Expresso because they erode less and do better over time. You might find their Builder's Academy course interesting.

One pertinant point worth repeating is the lack of accountability of the governing bodies towards the riders. Governing bodies need to serve the people, and by restricting projects such as the tnt bridge and cbc rebuild, they are failing to do so. I think public outcry is necessary if we don't like what's going on, but it needs to be directed at the appropriate people, such as metro van and lscr and dnv (the ones calling the shots). The reason why the jumpy, stunty trails are disappearing is because the land manager doesn't want them there and there isn't enough people pounding at their door crying foul at their disappearance.

One pertinant point worth repeating is the lack of accountability of the governing bodies towards the riders. Governing bodies need to serve the people, and by restricting projects such as the tnt bridge and cbc rebuild, they are failing to do so. I think public outcry is necessary if we don't like what's going on, but it needs to be directed at the appropriate people, such as metro van and lscr and dnv (the ones calling the shots). The reason why the jumpy, stunty trails are disappearing is because the land manager doesn't want them there and there isn't enough people pounding at their door crying foul at their disappearance.

Completely agree. Good post!

Defenitley also agree. And the best part is, despite the bad faith from a few individuals at un-named gov. organizations, we are in the best position to work towards jumpy, stunty trails…but in a legit manner. Using the great work and trust the NSMBA has established with most land managers, we have credentials to get more advanced trails built, in a safe way. I would urge working with the system on this one, not the image of rabid trail builer and riders hoisting there crude axes, and 50 lb bikes against the invasion of flow. These flow trails are the building blocks towards more advanced, creative trails to come.

One pertinant point worth repeating is the lack of accountability of the governing bodies towards the riders. Governing bodies need to serve the people, and by restricting projects such as the tnt bridge and cbc rebuild, they are failing to do so. I think public outcry is necessary if we don't like what's going on, but it needs to be directed at the appropriate people, such as metro van and lscr and dnv (the ones calling the shots). The reason why the jumpy, stunty trails are disappearing is because the land manager doesn't want them there and there isn't enough people pounding at their door crying foul at their disappearance.

I did Seymour today and hiked up the bottom 2/3 of CBC, and frankly I was shocked how bad it was, in terms of no flow, chunder, and obvious attempts of bypassing the trail sections that were "too hard". Moreover, on another note, this being the Sunday of the May long weekend, on my hike up CBC I saw NO ONE. If you were to tell me 10/12/15 years ago this would be the case, I would of thought you on good drugs. But that was the case today. And not hard to see why. CBC gets no work, many of the armoured parts are hard (for anyone looking for flow) and it is simply choppy. But that is what you get for a shuttle mountain where most do a trail 3 times in a day and the commensurate work is minimal, or non-existent at best. And to think I do CBC at best once in 2 months.

Expresso needs frequent minor upkeep because it is likely the most ridden trail on Fromme by a longshot. If Grannies or Crippler saw that kind of traffic, they would probably be beyond repair.

Trailbuilding/maintaining is like painting a bridge, once you've finished, you start over from the beginning.

Those who understand, do, those who don't talk.

And not hard to see why. CBC gets no work, many of the armoured parts are hard (for anyone looking for flow) and it is simply choppy. But that is what you get for a shuttle mountain where most do a trail 3 times in a day and the commensurate work is minimal, or non-existent at best.

When we were running the NSMBA we often thought about having a trail day put on by shuttlers, if nobody showed up we would agree to shut down the trail or let it degrade itself naturally. I guess this is what's happening. Funny thing is, if the trail were actually ACTIVELY shut down you wouldn't hear the end of the complaining. Too bad these people aren't the same ones willing to do any maintenance on it.

To think this was the "poster child" for sustainable trail development.

Shoulda left the original line in place……