I think it's more that the code has changed from "keep it quiet" to "tell everyone" coupled with the massive increase in participants. The same thing has happened to backcountry skiing... huts and areas that used to only be known about through word-of-mouth or putting in time figuring out where they were are now common knowledge.
Time to borrow all your friends GPS tracking devices. Put them in a pack and run through the woods off trail with all of them tracking not a trail. I followed a heat map trail a few years back though a massive boulder field but only realized later it was from a snowshoe track during winter. If some map source becomes unreliable enough times maybe people won’t trust it anymore. Or folks can just stop public tracking their rides.
you guys are asking too much out of people....
Posted by: PaulB
I think it's more that the code has changed from "keep it quiet" to "tell everyone" coupled with the massive increase in participants. The same thing has happened to backcountry skiing... huts and areas that used to only be known about through word-of-mouth or putting in time figuring out where they were are now common knowledge.
Well you know we must grow the sport.
Step one: increase the number of participants
Step two: ????
Step three: profits.
Posted by: andy-eunson
Posted by: PaulB
I think it's more that the code has changed from "keep it quiet" to "tell everyone" coupled with the massive increase in participants. The same thing has happened to backcountry skiing... huts and areas that used to only be known about through word-of-mouth or putting in time figuring out where they were are now common knowledge.
Well you know we must grow the sport.
Step one: increase the number of participants
Step two: ????
Step three: profits.
Step 2 is called investment into better and better equipment development. Businesses exist to make a profit, and investments are made for a return on them. Investments are amortized over sales volume.
The alternative is to keep riding our Juicy 3's and flexy Z1 QR.
I beg to differ that “real riders don’t ride e-bikes.” Unless Wade Simmons and Andreas Hestler aren’t “real riders” not to mention one of the most prolific Cypress builders of late. Lots of other builders as well use them for both work and play.
I don’t mind someone saying I’m not a “real rider” but your generalization is on the absurd end of the spectrum.
I’d be more inclined to say that about riders who exclusively shuttle, but that’s not true either.
Posted by: [email protected]
I beg to differ that “real riders don’t ride e-bikes.” Unless Wade Simmons and Andreas Hestler aren’t “real riders” not to mention one of the most prolific Cypress builders of late. Lots of other builders as well use them for both work and play.
I don’t mind someone saying I’m not a “real rider” but your generalization is on the absurd end of the spectrum.
I’d be more inclined to say that about riders who exclusively shuttle, but that’s not true either.
Real riders are the ones who are involved in their community and give back to the trail network in some way.
Wow - I walked away from this thread for a few days and it blows up.
I have been watching a specific online offender uploading every single trail under the guise of “public duty” and “it aligns with the sites mandate” and even watched them have a member (who is in this thread) banned for deleting their uploads. Towing their car from whatever trailhead it is at while they map out our doom might be a good way to combat this. Anyone have a tow truck?
Posted by: Ddean
I have been watching a specific online offender uploading every single trail under the guise of “public duty” and “it aligns with the sites mandate” and even watched them have a member (who is in this thread) banned for deleting their uploads.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/eerib
This guy is prolific poster on OSM and has stated this on some of his/her comments on OSM. "Revert CS 161441114 - Mass vandalism/deletion of mountain bike trails)"
and this person: https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/woodpeck_repair
Why someone feels they have to map everything is beyond me.....seems like an Online Trail Nazi vs on the ground like we used to have.
There are a certain segment of the riding population that feel the need to share everything they ride. It's a part of this internet world we're living in. I disagree with it but it is what it is. I see this in the ski world as well. People feel the need to share every skiable/rideable line. Somehow the fact that the line or trail hasn't been shared yet compels some people to share it even more. I'm old so I don't agree but this is how the current generation live their lives. It's all for the "likes". Maybe their the next Remi but probably they aren't. But they're posting their shitty vlog for 250 views on YouTube anyway. They're logging every trail on Strava because they can't help themselves, or they don't care to change their app settings. Or they just don't care that they're blowing up the spot.
For the record, I'm watching your crappy vid, and I'm scoping your heatmaps. Thanks in advance.
Perhaps it's because they honestly think they're providing a public service. I've heard multiple "content creators" take that stance. Perhaps it's because they've never built a trail and they're honestly oblivious to the consequences of posting the details. Perhaps its something else. But as (rogue) trail builders we just have to accept that this is reality. If you're building in the middle of nowhere BC you can probably keep your trail under wraps for a couple of years or more. If you're rogue building in the vincinity of Vancouver/Sea to Sky, then your trail is going to get found, posted, and roosted. It is what it is. Especially if it's actually a good trail.
If you want to build rogue trails, this is part to the game. Get over it. You're building illegal trails in the middle of a mountain bike mecca in an era of zero secrecy. What do you expect? I'd prefer it it wasn't this way, but it is what it is.
(Or get better at finding more remote spots to build, and tell less people about it. Just saying.)
I don't care about people finding or riding the trails I work on, that is what they were built for. Getting back to Dave's original post about "unwanted building"
What I do care about is people messing with, or altering the lines that others have built or maintain. What most people don't understand is, when we build a section with a couple of reversals, or have a turn "where the trail could go straight", we are usually doing that for a reason (drainage, preventing erosion, speed check...). People always want to go straight down the fall line, but they don't have to do the maintenance, they only ride the trail from Spring to Fall, so they don't see all the water running down the "fall line braid" they have made, in turn washing out whole sections of trail. When we leave salal covering a big rock face, making a line that weaves through it, instead of clearing the whole face to make a huck off the end, so the rock doesn't turn into a giant scar in the forest...
With the few trails that I have "built" from scratch, I just wish there was some respect. Even after posting some signs and leaving notes for people, they went back and opened up sections I had tried to returned to the original form. Once they scraped all the salal and duff off the rock (30' x 20'), that was always going to be difficult, but I was making that effort (putting logs to hold the duff in place, shoveling buckets of duff back onto the rock)
Now I'm making this about me...haha
Cooper quote
"I don't believe the difference in usage is purely a function of "difficulty". It's also a function of how riding and the trails many people enjoy have changed; slow-speed technical jank doesn't appeal to everyone, in the same way that Boogienights doesn't appeal to everyone."
I think difficulty is exactly why they don't ride Grannies, can something that is too difficult, for said person, be fun? For most the answer is no, so difficulty is why most people don't ride trails like Grannies. The few that can ride anything and everything, might choose not to ride Grannies, but the rest avoid it because they have to walk too much of it. Nobody wants to walk sections of trail, that is why they make braids and alter lines, so they can say they ride said trail...
I love Grannies because it is too hard to make braids, so it seems to maintain its level.
What I miss about the old days, sessioning sections of trail until you get them, or didn't. Coming back again to get the "nub" at the bottom of Pink Starfish, because your buddies were all in the "nub club", but you weren't (you had to ride it on that day).
Anyways, RIDING IS FUN. I'm going riding tomorrow, and I will do some trail maintenance, because I can't help myself, that is who I am and how I function...
Posted by: syncro
Posted by: [email protected]
I beg to differ that “real riders don’t ride e-bikes.” Unless Wade Simmons and Andreas Hestler aren’t “real riders” not to mention one of the most prolific Cypress builders of late. Lots of other builders as well use them for both work and play.
I don’t mind someone saying I’m not a “real rider” but your generalization is on the absurd end of the spectrum.
I’d be more inclined to say that about riders who exclusively shuttle, but that’s not true either.
Real riders are the one who are involved in their community and give back to the trail network in some way.
if you aren't giving back to the trails, especially the ones you ride is real entitlement and really have no say.
on another note, I love the response from the NSMBA Executive Director from https://www.nsnews.com/local-news/going-downhill-conflict-over-rogue-north-shore-mountain-bike-trails-coming-to-a-head-10092765
" It's just not our mandate to be the best mountain bike trail network around,”
Why do you think rogue building exists when an advocacy group doesn't advocate? Another year they won't be seeing my $.
on another note, I love the response from the NSMBA Executive Director from
" It's just not our mandate to be the best mountain bike trail network around,”
In fairness to NSMBA, that quote isn't from them...it's from Metro Vancouver
Posted by: SixZeroSixOne
on another note, I love the response from the NSMBA Executive Director from
" It's just not our mandate to be the best mountain bike trail network around,”
In fairness to NSMBA, that quote isn't from them...it's from Metro Vancouver
Yeah I think that's from Heidi Walsh,
Cote did say this though, which basically amounts to the same thing:
"“If they’re getting bored, then there’s lots of other riding destinations where they can maybe go and find those experiences that they’re looking for. That doesn’t necessarily mean they have to go out and build it themselves. There’s plenty out there.”"
So the answer is.. go ride (probably Roque trails) somewhere else? Lol great attitude there. Funny to say that out of one side of your mouth and then ask people to engage and donate out the other. I realize it's not an easy job but even if that's how you feel, wierd thing to say to a media outlet.
Also just wanted to say I really liked Clownshoe's post. Very pragmatic.
I guess it begs the question - does NSMB create a bit of a feedback loop where the increased awareness via advocacy does as much harm as it does good? I'd never considered that before. I'm not sure that's the case but sadly there's probably a case to be made. Seems like trail orgs do better when where's a single land manager involved (and especially if the land manager is a private entity eg Galbraith).
My point is, which is more difficult - Grannies, or Boogienights?
And the answer is, it depends on who you are, and what you like. I'd wager a lot of the folks who like the trail experience Grannies provides go around the jumps on Boogienights. That's not throwing shade at those riders, it's trying to recognize that 'trail difficulty' means a lot of different things, and manifests in different ways.
"Anyways, RIDING IS FUN. "
here, here.
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