Unwanted Cypress building

Just had a look Darkside and Lower Cypress aren't blacked out on OSM. That's shitty.

Yep, that's not how OSM does business. Anyone can add anything and it's visible for everyone.

If people maintain what they ride, there would be way less of a problem.  Unfortunately, 99% of the biking community just care about getting their latest fix.   Sad.

Posted by: cooperquinn

All the major north shore land managers have their own internal trail maps - these are generally better than what's on Trailforks and OSM, to be honest. Both Metro and DNV have hired summer positions to do nothing but map trails, Metro has also engaged third party consultants to do the same. DWV built their own maps, but I don't know if it was internal positions or third party. If you have a bit of time (or it's your job), it's very easy to find trails. Just pick a contour and follow it till you hit a trail. Hike up to the top. Repeat.

It's easy to blame OSM/Strava/Whatever for these things, but IMO that's mostly just a red herring. Yes, you certainly can use these tools to find trails, but in the dense frontcountry that is the north shore, it's not great. (it can work well in less populated areas with lower trail density). The bigger 'issue' at hand here is the sheer number of riders out there these days. The reason it's nearly impossible for trails to remain 'secret' compared to however many years ago people have memories of is because there's just way, way more people out there now. Which means more chances of people finding things, more word of mouth spread, more people walking through bushes leaving paths to the entrance, etc. 

There's a few areas on Seymour that have been beyond what any land manager could consider reasonable for some time now (I'm looking at you, CBC zone), and I'm quite shocked it's taken this long for Metro to announce anything like this. While there's certainly trails on their list for decommissioning that I (and the NSMBA) certainly don't think should be removed, there's also a pile that... we probably shouldn't cry over, and maybe do a bit of self-reflection. I realize that's not going to happen, this whole exercise is a waste of money, and it's going to result in _more _unsanctioned building, but that's because Metro hasn't fully yet realized they're not in the business of trail management, they need to manage people.

FWIW, the original builder on New Normal figured they had two years of semi-secrecy before it blew up. He was round-about right, with construction in 2020, iand massive increases in popularity starting around 2022. Metro found the trail during some of the Ned's rehab work, noticing a ton of riders going in the top of Ned's, and not coming out the bottom. So they went to look for where all those people were going.

It's a red herring, sure, but it's also a silver platter. If you want to be the voice of reason here, I'd suggest turning off your ride logs on unsanctioned trails first.

Posted by: Kenny

I get how they end up on heat maps, but how the heck do these trails end up being actually mapped on map sites/apps? People actually proactively add "unofficial" trails to maps? Just... Why? Same goes for strava segments. Just unnecessary and fans the flames.

open street/cycle map is open source, anyone can contribute. there are people who have the need to map the "real" world as it is. and those maps are the basis for most commercial maps like komoot and strava

Posted by: Sethimus

Posted by: Kenny

I get how they end up on heat maps, but how the heck do these trails end up being actually mapped on map sites/apps? People actually proactively add "unofficial" trails to maps? Just... Why? Same goes for strava segments. Just unnecessary and fans the flames.

open street/cycle map is open source, anyone can contribute. there are people who have the need to map the "real" world as it is. and those maps are the basis for most commercial maps like komoot and strava

I understand the mechanics. I don't understand the motivation.

Posted by: LoamtoHome

If people maintain what they ride, there would be way less of a problem.  Unfortunately, 99% of the biking community just care about getting their latest fix.   Sad.

Doesn't factor into Metro's decision making though. All but the CBC alternate lines were in great shape. NN in particular was a masterclass of trail building. 

Speaking of which, if CBC wasn't such a garbage trail maybe there would not be alternate lines right next to it.... ? The fact that they pumped all that money into CBC, only to end up with the same outdated line says a lot about their management...

NN was/is a gem and I think is one that needs to be sanctioned.

CBC is a great way to shake out any loose bolts

Posted by: MaxRockatansky

Posted by: LoamtoHome

If people maintain what they ride, there would be way less of a problem.  Unfortunately, 99% of the biking community just care about getting their latest fix.   Sad.

Doesn't factor into Metro's decision making though. All but the CBC alternate lines were in great shape. NN in particular was a masterclass of trail building. 

Speaking of which, if CBC wasn't such a garbage trail maybe there would not be alternate lines right next to it.... ? The fact that they pumped all that money into CBC, only to end up with the same outdated line says a lot about their management...

agreed about riding that trail but that zone is mess for building in general.  So much water and little drainage.   It would cost a fortune and many man hours to put in another line.  Not sure what the answer is for that zone but maybe more people should head to Cypress?  Lot of new trail building there and lots of people taking care of the trails.

Posted by: MaxRockatansky

Posted by: LoamtoHome

If people maintain what they ride, there would be way less of a problem. Unfortunately, 99% of the biking community just care about getting their latest fix. Sad.

Doesn't factor into Metro's decision making though. All but the CBC alternate lines were in great shape. NN in particular was a masterclass of trail building.

Speaking of which, if CBC wasn't such a garbage trail maybe there would not be alternate lines right next to it.... ? The fact that they pumped all that money into CBC, only to end up with the same outdated line says a lot about their management...

The problem is: CBC is exactly what they want. Low liability, lots of paved rock (low mainenance), easy to keep track off and is on the radar. Everything else is "unknown" and carries huge liability and risk, from a Metro point of view. Regardless of how well built it is. And to be honest, it is all rogue and unauthorized, so you can't really complain about how you build an illegal trail and not expect to see it "dealt with" in this day and age. 25 years ago you could of kept it out of sight, out of mind, but with technology (Strava, Trailforks etc..) there is no hiding anything anymore. And the influx of new riders oblivious to this fact, all happy that they are "on the grid" and proud to show their accomplishments (look at the heat maps for evidence) what do you expect. In the old days the powers that be had to work to find hidden trails. No more.

And with the trails announced being "removed" where are the new illegal lines going to go? They will be found eventually, and with technology more likely sooner than later. How the Darkside has escaped any scrutiny is beyond me, but with it being Provincial, and budgets being what they are, I can see why it goes unaddressed.

Maybe mountain biking, in the GVA anyway, has gotten too popular for its own good. I have thought this for 10 years. But so long as the entrance to this sport is as low as it is, I don't see any change.

Posted by: cooperquinn

All the major north shore land managers have their own internal trail maps - these are generally better than what's on Trailforks and OSM, to be honest. Both Metro and DNV have hired summer positions to do nothing but map trails, Metro has also engaged third party consultants to do the same. DWV built their own maps, but I don't know if it was internal positions or third party. If you have a bit of time (or it's your job), it's very easy to find trails. Just pick a contour and follow it till you hit a trail. Hike up to the top. Repeat.

It's easy to blame OSM/Strava/Whatever for these things, but IMO that's mostly just a red herring. Yes, you certainly can use these tools to find trails, but in the dense frontcountry that is the north shore, it's not great. (it can work well in less populated areas with lower trail density). The bigger 'issue' at hand here is the sheer number of riders out there these days. The reason it's nearly impossible for trails to remain 'secret' compared to however many years ago people have memories of is because there's just way, way more people out there now. Which means more chances of people finding things, more word of mouth spread, more people walking through bushes leaving paths to the entrance, etc.

There's a few areas on Seymour that have been beyond what any land manager could consider reasonable for some time now (I'm looking at you, CBC zone), and I'm quite shocked it's taken this long for Metro to announce anything like this. While there's certainly trails on their list for decommissioning that I (and the NSMBA) certainly don't think should be removed, there's also a pile that... we probably shouldn't cry over, and maybe do a bit of self-reflection. I realize that's not going to happen, this whole exercise is a waste of money, and it's going to result in _more _unsanctioned building, but that's because Metro hasn't fully yet realized they're not in the business of trail management, they need to manage people.

FWIW, the original builder on New Normal figured they had two years of semi-secrecy before it blew up. He was round-about right, with construction in 2020, iand massive increases in popularity starting around 2022. Metro found the trail during some of the Ned's rehab work, noticing a ton of riders going in the top of Ned's, and not coming out the bottom. So they went to look for where all those people were going.

I realize you are relatively new to the area; you were not here in Freeride's heyday. Something to keep in mind.

Take a trail like GMG. Completely off grid. Granted, every trail was unsanctioned at this time but this one (and many others) were really off grid. They stayed that way, and a "taboo subject" because they were kept secret, and hard. Really hard. If any newbie was to find it (or Walk In The Clouds, Swollen Uvula or Flying Circus...bad example but....) it stayed quiet. The few that could ride them were a tight bunch and knew whom to tell and not to tell. But today, it is a free for all and with technology ANYONE of any skill (more in the latter part of the percentage) can find them, ride them, log them and tell about it. At the aforementioned trails' inaugurations there was not YouTube, or Internet really. Blame technology....no one takes the fall.  But the point on this:  the trails were hard.  Look at the hard trails on Fromme, for example.  How many ride Upper Oilcan, Bookwus, Grannies, Crippler, Ladies, or to a lesser extent, Executioner....goes to show that if it the trail is easier to ride with minimal consequence, the more likely it will be ridden and ridden a lot.  New Neds.....perfect example.  Most whom ride this cannot ride Grannies or Crippler.  And most of the "off grid" lines are not a masterclass in technical riding.  In the Freeriding days the more off grid it was, the harder it was, and that was the intent.  But Dangerous Dan got too sloppy and too obvious and, well, got noticed.  It is hard to not notice Whatchimalcalit when you have skinnies stapled to trees 10 feet in the air not far from the Baden Powell.  Icarus is not just a parable.

You can't build a trail ANYWHERE in the Vancouver area riding community today without someone finding it. Most now come to look for, and expect, new loamers and trails to find beyond the established trail network. I would guess a percentage of riders use the idea of established trails to FIND new trails to ride, and the Seymour Gray Area is a perfect example. Don't think this is the old days where you could hack out a trail and expect it to be quiet for any time. If you build it, it will be found, quickly, and video'ed and uploaded. This is the New Normal. Most likely not the idea the trail builders of said trail had in mind.

history never repeats i tell myself before i go to sleep

Im shocked at the detail thats shown on strava and osm.

I've been here 20 years - while that certainly doesn't encompass all the history, I'm not sure it's "recent".

But here's a question - how many riders did you see back in the "heyday" when everything was kept secret? Because depending on the survey and study you're looking at, mountain biking is up somewhere north of 600% from 2007ish-2017ish (I'm not aware of anything more recent than 2018.). It's nothing more than my guess, but I'd bet it's easily doubled again since 2017 - that's 10x more riders than the 2000s give or take, when there was already a significant expansion from the late '90s when GMG etc were built. The odds of someone finding your secret trail have gone up by a corresponding order of magnitude. If you have a dog, or ever go for a hike, you probably know how easy it is to find even the best kept secrets. Pick a contour, follow it. And if you want to see a really hard trail that's way off the grid, there's one listed on the LSCR's list of potential closures. 

I'd also suggest that there's some very significantly challenging lines still being built and ridden off the map. But sure, do more people ride Expresso than Grannies? Absolutely. And while I'm glad lines like Grannies still exist, and trails like Pipeline have been revitalized, I don't believe the difference in usage is purely a function of "difficulty". It's also a function of how riding and the trails many people enjoy have changed; slow-speed technical jank doesn't appeal to everyone, in the same way that Boogienights doesn't appeal to everyone. The coolest part of riding is the variety of what "going for a ride" can mean, and different people enjoy different things. 

The builder on NN knew it wouldn't be secret forever - as I said, they figured two years. Which turned out to be about correct.