This is why we should oppose electric bikes

Ebike riders will need two battery packs. Hide one at the end of the trail. Use the other to get up to trailhead. Remove big, heavy battery at trailhead and hide it. Rip down trail to the end. Grab stashed battery, insert it, then climb back up to get other battery.

This is an important perspective to maintain. I shred trails way harder on my modern bike than I used to on the old kit. My recent rides on a 93 deKerf have made that pretty damn clear.

Trails and management have had to adapt, 20 years ago I never would have thought my dirtbag sport would be as organized, legimitized and managed as it is now. I wouldn't be too surprised if busy areas end up with a mix of e-moto friendly and mtb only trails.

So instead of a kneejerk reaction reminiscent of the old hiker vs mtb'er debate, we could try and work out how said e-bikes might affect trail usage and erosion, and work from there.

Mountainbiking is mainstream, and is here to stay that way, it is only getting bigger - and the various advocacy groups have to adapt or go might go the way of the Dodo.

This is one of the instances when I am happy that I live in Germany, mountainbiking over here is still riding lots of gravel roads. The idea of purpose-built singletrack is only slowly taking hold.

And the numbers of E-bikes are increasing in my little, not really popular part for singletrack shredding.

We as a culture have to deal with it. The idea of banning them might be a first logical reaction, but in the long run unproductive.

yellowdogx says: "Mountain bikers have had to work hard to gain any footing with hikers, land owners, etc." True. But I find it hard to buy this anymore. Mountainbiking is solidly established and the authorities are too deep into it to do anything but help make it all work across all of the user groups.

and also: "Every trail is now a shuttle trail. How many laps could the average rider pull off slowly pedaling the way up mountain hiway vs. a twist of the throttle? Trails like Fromme so close to a major metropoitan area like Vancouver are going to take shit kicking if the majority of riders are someday on e-bikes." Again, True. Throttles would accellerate this, but generally this doesn't ring true to me anymore either. The growing number of regular mountain bikers blows shuttling and ebikes out of the water.

Tashi's point is bang on: "Trails and management have had to adapt, 20 years ago I never would have thought my dirtbag sport would be as organized, legimitized and managed as it is now. I wouldn't be too surprised if busy areas end up with a mix of e-moto friendly and mtb only trails."

The cat's out of the bag. The industry is pushing/developing ebikes and who knows what it will all come to. But it started a long time before this 'latest' development . . . right at the very beginning. The first mountain biker couldn't wait to tell his buddies and get them out there. The entire mountain bike industry (and a large chunk of the ridership) has inherently and overtly focused on "growing the sport." More trails, but more importantly, More riders able to ride More terrain. Let's look in the mirror. We are consuming the trails. Increasing our fitness, buying a new bike, improving our skills, getting friends into the sport, driving to hell and back to find new trailheads, buying guidebooks, and on, and on, and on - this is what will wipe our beloved trails off the mountainside. Tashi's right. Trails are changing, how they are managed is changing, the place of our sport in the bigger picture continues to change, the economics are evolving, the tools are morphing, and the busy areas will continue to need everyone's close attention. There will be new trails and older trails will no doubt change. User groups may also change. Think about networks of handicapped double track designed to be as fun/challenging as any of our singletrack. Maybe ebike trails (I hope not, and I doubt it).

The point is not to be happy and let it all go to hell. The point is to work rationally to make it all work as best as possible, and not to let emotion rule. I really don't want ebikes on our trails. But I also know, in spite of any efforts I might make, I might lose this one. Maybe when I am 70 I will have even changed my mind (though I doubt it).

I just read Mic's post. Agree or disagree, its a bit of reason/thought that presents some points to think about. He even pushed the emotion driven fear mongering (the old hiker vs mtb'er debate) to the wayside. And he's right: we have to deal with ebikes; we can reject them or work them in, but biting a fishing hook set by norona is to be distracted. As for the points made by grumpy builder: you are the representative of common sense mountain bikers, not guys like norona. Sooth your fear. If hundreds of norona-posts become the norm, then you can worry (maybe). But, look into the mirror: you are not so different if you would like to expand our territory into BCParks. Like I said, if we all get in there it will be us destroying the trails. Ebikes might need limits, but mountainbikers need them too.

Mountain bike advocates have been successful in getting more trail access over the past decades because we were successful at differentiating ourselves (rightly) from motorized users, and many of us who fought that very hard battle are loathe at the suggestion that now we have to advocate on behalf of them…and make no mistake, they do have the potential to threaten hard fought access and relationships with other non-motorized user groups.

I'm trying to understand if they're PHYSICALLY impacting the trails while under snow cover, as in noronas video. That is all. Norona hate/trail access etc are other (important) issues.

No one has convinced me that they're causing any damage over and above what a mountain bike would do.

zero damage. Snow would be an acceptable surface for e-bikes.

Mountain bike advocates have been successful in getting more trail access over the past decades because we were successful at differentiating ourselves (rightly) from motorized users, and many of us who fought that very hard battle are loathe at the suggestion that now we have to advocate on behalf of them…and make no mistake, they do have the potential to threaten hard fought access and relationships with other non-motorized user groups.

Thanks to everyone who "fought the very hard battle." I understand you would loath advocating "on behalf of them." I would loath that as well. But, I don't see anyone pushing such a thing. I politely disagree. That battle is very largely over in terms of the gains made, and the threats to "hard fought access" is simply not true. The regulating authorities (and I know this from the inside) know that an e-mountainbike is not equivalent to a pedal mountain bike, which results in the fact that they would require specific regulations.

My apologies FlipFantasia, I hear what your saying, but I also hear too much fear mongering which is not a good basis from which to proceed. Perceived threats and attachments to old fights just don't help. They don't help to build us something to advocate.

I have no idea what the difference between an E-bike setup for mountain biking is and what an electric dirt bike is!

One has "pedals" and the other has "foot pegs"???

I have no idea what the difference between an E-bike setup for mountain biking is and what an electric dirt bike is!

One has "pedals" and the other has "foot pegs"???

Some are pedelecs. Though it seems like the line gets blurred sometimes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedelec

I have no idea what the difference between an E-bike setup for mountain biking is and what an electric dirt bike is!

One has "pedals" and the other has "foot pegs"???

Good point. Foot pegs and throttle NO. Pedal assist and no throttle, Mehhhhhh.

Thanks to everyone who "fought the very hard battle." I understand you would loath advocating "on behalf of them." I would loath that as well. But, I don't see anyone pushing such a thing. I politely disagree. That battle is very largely over in terms of the gains made, and the threats to "hard fought access" is simply not true. The regulating authorities (and I know this from the inside) know that an e-mountainbike is not equivalent to a pedal mountain bike, which results in the fact that they would require specific regulations.

My apologies FlipFantasia, I hear what your saying, but I also hear too much fear mongering which is not a good basis from which to proceed. Perceived threats and attachments to old fights just don't help. They don't help to build us something to advocate.

I really hope they aren't disruptive, but you know who will get thrown under the bus with them if they are? non-motorized mtb's. lots of people not involved in advocacy seem to like to tell those that are how it will be, and what we should do, I'd like e-bike aficionados to form their own groups and start working with all the other user groups to convince us that they won't be a problem, not going to take their word for it and end up being responsible for cleaning up the mess. I'm not against motorized recreation where it's allowed, but I firmly disagree with it being allowed everywhere, especially on non-motorized trail systems. Mountain bikes aren't allowed everywhere, and neither should motorized users.

personally i think there is a huge difference between an E- Mountain bike and a Electric Dirt bike or a dirt bike of any kind .

should i run into someone on the trail riding a ebike i might get jealous more than pissed when compared to running into a dirt biker on the trail .

Redbull TV has a video of 2 riders shredding on KTM dirtbikes , one is gas the other is electric , apart from the looks of the bike and the fact it has no real sound it is still capable of hanging with the gas powered bike . not sure how long it can run for but I,m betting the destruction it can do to a trail fair exceeds what a e-bike is capable of doing .

I really hope they aren't disruptive, but you know who will get thrown under the bus with them if they are? non-motorized mtb's. lots of people not involved in advocacy seem to like to tell those that are how it will be, and what we should do, I'd like e-bike aficionados to form their own groups and start working with all the other user groups to convince us that they won't be a problem, not going to take their word for it and end up being responsible for cleaning up the mess. I'm not against motorized recreation where it's allowed, but I firmly disagree with it being allowed everywhere, especially on non-motorized trail systems. Mountain bikes aren't allowed everywhere, and neither should motorized users.

I'm not sure if you are disagreeing with me, but I agree with you except for one thing: I don't agree that we will get thrown under the bus with ebikes: it's a lot more complicated and the powers that throw people under these buses have a much better understanding of it all. I don't think highly of a lot of how our municipal governments operate, but they know the difference between a mountainbike and an ebike and they know their constituants, who by and large look favorably upon our activity.

As for DemonMike's points, I haven't even given a thought to Electric Dirt bikes. Keeping them off the trails better be a no brainer or its time to picket.

I really hope they aren't disruptive, but you know who will get thrown under the bus with them if they are? non-motorized mtb's. lots of people not involved in advocacy seem to like to tell those that are how it will be, and what we should do, I'd like e-bike aficionados to form their own groups and start working with all the other user groups to convince us that they won't be a problem, not going to take their word for it and end up being responsible for cleaning up the mess. I'm not against motorized recreation where it's allowed, but I firmly disagree with it being allowed everywhere, especially on non-motorized trail systems. Mountain bikes aren't allowed everywhere, and neither should motorized users.

Oh, and as for advocacy, don't assume people you don't operate with don't advocate. The world is complicated. Some people are on the inside (so to speak) and might exercise power and persuasion that you will never hear about. On the outside, I don't tell people what to think or how it will be, I just tell you what I am thinking.

Read this months issue of Bike for perspective on the issues the US has with bikes being banned from wilderness areas. Also being banned from areas that might be proposed as designated wilderness. I see mountainbikes as being barely accepted as a human powered means of getting out there. The Monica Cravers of the world disagree and she is not alone. The North Shore is immensely popular for riding now and confrontations are making news. We have trails designated hiking only and even some that are mountain bike only and many that are mtb primary. But we share that space. At the moment local governments are on board with riding their but what if Ernie Crist (RIP) or someone like him was a local mayor? Or someone on the fence until people start riding uphill fast on e-bikes? Certainly today's e-bikes are not exceedingly fast but mark my word, if they get a toe hold and there is money to be made, power outputs will climb. On road e-bikes are limited in speed and power but not off road as far as I know and they are easily modified to up the juice. That is the point a I was making when I started this thread, e-bikes will become more powerful in short order. That's how marketing stuff works. We had a wee issue in Whistler this summer. On some really easy trails in Cheakamus. Line of sight is not great in places and people don't see each other and confrontations happen and someone writes to council and suggests that bikes be banned and councils response sounds like that is being given serious consideration. Throw in motorized e-bikes and now uphills are also taken too fast and we will all be coloured by the same brush. Face it, mountain biking has a reputation as being full of young male freaks jumping whipping roosting which does not mix with hiking very well. Add in powered bikes and that does not bode well for advocacy.