cripes the editor on this version of the forum sucking fucks
The first e-bikes of the season riding up Mountain Highway
I took the dog for a walk on the Shore today. I dont think Ive been there this year. Headed up Fromme partly to check out Lower Expresso. Everything is punched to ****. Hell I even landed on my ass walking down Penzoil as what used to be dirt is now just powder. Sure the weather has a big part to play but I`m pretty sure E-bikes have contributed 0% to the damage. People skidding, hitting things too fast for their skill set, Enduroing, trying to get that stupid KOM than no-one else gives a toss about etc all have a far greater impact than some old guy on an E-bike.
Posted by: MaxRockatansky
ALL of my bikes with a motor have been fun for the activities you mention above but alas due to them running on fossil fuels I don't have the luxury of flying under the radar in non-motorized trail networks.
No one is questioning if they are fun or not. I am certain they are fun after a short parking lot test. The question is should a motorized vehicle be allowed on Mountain bike / hiking trails? and if they are what are the repercussions as the technology inevitably turns to 50+kph with after market throttle applications etc. (most of which is available already according to pages 1-3)
You can't compare a dirtbike to a legal ebike. You are talking 100's of pounds in weight difference, way less torque and an almost silent drivetrain. They are also limited by law to not assist after 32km/h and have a max 500 watt motor. For comparison a 500 watt motor has .66 horsepower while a 150cc engine has 10 horsepower.
I can not spin a wheel on my ebike or dig big chunks out of the ground. Like I said I think some people need to try them before putting them down.
It really comes down to the individual. Downtown Vancouver is full of nice bikers that follow the laws as well as some jerk bikers but I certainly don't want bikes banned because of a few bad apples. If someone is being a jerk on an ebike then that's an individual thing.
Should they be allowed on mountain bike trails? Can't really answer that question but things do change and progress forward.
Why would someone care if an ebike is on a trail if they do no more harm than a regular mountain bike?
Non-motorized trails were designated for obvious reasons and it had nothing to do with ebikes.
Bear in mind if we didn't have change and progress we would still be riding bikes without shocks and gears.
Posted by: thefishtailbites
You can't compare a dirtbike to a legal ebike. You are talking 100's of pounds in weight difference, way less torque and an almost silent drivetrain. They are also limited by law to not assist after 32km/h and have a max 500 watt motor. For comparison a 500 watt motor has .66 horsepower while a 150cc engine has 10 horsepower.
Agree, it's not necessary to compare the two. The only similarity is that they both have motors.
Posted by: thefishtailbites
It really comes down to the individual. Downtown Vancouver is full of nice bikers that follow the laws as well as some jerk bikers but I certainly don't want bikes banned because of a few bad apples. If someone is being a jerk on an ebike then that's an individual thing.
Agree with this as well. It feels like a lot of general ebike disdain in this thread. I think the technology is fantastic and is helping get more people on bikes; which is fantastic.
Posted by: thefishtailbites
Why would someone care if an ebike is on a trail if they do no more harm than a regular mountain bike?
This is not a new perspective in this thread, so I'm just reiterating. I think people should care because ebikes have motors and the trails I ride are designated as non-motorized. I feel like riding your ebike on non-motorized trails could obviously jeopardize access for those of us who are pedaling. I wouldn't personally support ebikes on the mountain, but if people who feel strongly were to successfully lobby to have trail designations changed, I wouldn't be too bent out of shape. Until then, I'm going to give you some shit if I see you on the mountain. Particularly if I pass you...
Posted by: thefishtailbites
Non-motorized trails were designated for obvious reasons and it had nothing to do with ebikes.
While this might be true, shouldn't you have to clarify this with those responsible for designating "non-motorized" before riding your e assist on mtb trails?
*this editor is soooo painful
I have zero issue with e-bikes downtown, on the road. On moto trails. Makes a lot of sense, especially if your commute is a decent length. Anything to get cars off the road.
I actually don't even have an issue with an e-bike on the trails as it is sold today and don't see a maintenance issue at all, for now.
The issue is there are already aftermarket modifications to the motor and controls that make a bike that looks like an MTB operate like a moto. The one posted earlier in the thread tricks the motor into operating up to 50kph. 2 years of battery and motor technology and you'll have moto speeds and serous brappage. Costs will come down to regular mid-range mtb prices and then the shit will really hit the fan.
Access issues are my major concern and mountain bikes being lumped into the same basket as E-bikes when the above happens should be a real concern.
Comparing motors in mountain bikes to developments in suspension and gears could be the most ridiculous comparison I've heard so far.
If these bikes had 5hp gas engines would we be having the same debate?
Posted by: Henry-Chinaski
Posted by: thefishtailbites
You can't compare a dirtbike to a legal ebike. You are talking 100's of pounds in weight difference, way less torque and an almost silent drivetrain. They are also limited by law to not assist after 32km/h and have a max 500 watt motor. For comparison a 500 watt motor has .66 horsepower while a 150cc engine has 10 horsepower.
Agree, it's not necessary to compare the two. The only similarity is that they both have motors.
Posted by: thefishtailbites
It really comes down to the individual. Downtown Vancouver is full of nice bikers that follow the laws as well as some jerk bikers but I certainly don't want bikes banned because of a few bad apples. If someone is being a jerk on an ebike then that's an individual thing.
Agree with this as well. It feels like a lot of general ebike disdain in this thread. I think the technology is fantastic and is helping get more people on bikes; which is fantastic.
Posted by: thefishtailbites
Why would someone care if an ebike is on a trail if they do no more harm than a regular mountain bike?
This is not a new perspective in this thread, so I'm just reiterating. I think people should care because ebikes have motors and the trails I ride are designated as non-motorized. I feel like riding your ebike on non-motorized trails could obviously jeopardize access for those of us who are pedaling. I wouldn't personally support ebikes on the mountain, but if people who feel strongly were to successfully lobby to have trail designations changed, I wouldn't be too bent out of shape. Until then, I'm going to give you some shit if I see you on the mountain. Particularly if I pass you...
Posted by: thefishtailbites
Non-motorized trails were designated for obvious reasons and it had nothing to do with ebikes.
While this might be true, shouldn't you have to clarify this with those responsible for designating "non-motorized" before riding your e assist on mtb trails?
*this editor is soooo painful
I agree with all your points.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-YyKy8WWmo
8 minute mark pretty much sums up what is going to go down. Looks like a battery dirt bike no?
Last edited by: bux-bux on Aug. 4, 2017, 11:44 a.m., edited 3 times in total.
Here's something to consider, how many people would like to do 4-6 day self supported bike packing trip through the Chilcotins? How many could actually handle that or would your route selection be significantly limited? Would having a pedal assist bike to get you through some of the tougher days make the trip more enjoyable?
I did a 5 day supported trip in the Chilcotinst a few years back with Lee and while admittedly my bike fitness at the time wasn't where I wanted it to be nor as good as a bunch of the other riders, I was able to tackle the bigger days and not fall way off the back even though I suffered at times. Thinking back, there's no way I could have done that trip self supported. I'd like to though. The question is can I devote the time I need to riding/training to get in the kind of shape I'd need to be in to be able to complete that same route self supported? I'd wager that the type of fitness it would take be be at a fairly elite level, like close to pro-class racer. Maybe Lee or some others who were also on that trip could chime in.
There are some valid points on both sides of the argument and what I see it coming down to on both sides is the responsibility of the person behind the bars. That's a question of changing attitudes. I think we all know that whether these things are legal or not, there are going to be people who will ride them where they want, when they want and how they want. It's nothing different than how people nowadays braid lines or ride closed trails. How do we account for that?
Posted by: MaxRockatansky
I have zero issue with e-bikes downtown, on the road. On moto trails. Makes a lot of sense, especially if your commute is a decent length. Anything to get cars off the road.
I actually don't even have an issue with an e-bike on the trails as it is sold today and don't see a maintenance issue at all, for now.
The issue is there are already aftermarket modifications to the motor and controls that make a bike that looks like an MTB operate like a moto. The one posted earlier in the thread tricks the motor into operating up to 50kph. 2 years of battery and motor technology and you'll have moto speeds and serous brappage. Costs will come down to regular mid-range mtb prices and then the shit will really hit the fan.
Access issues are my major concern and mountain bikes being lumped into the same basket as E-bikes when the above happens should be a real concern.
Comparing motors in mountain bikes to developments in suspension and gears could be the most ridiculous comparison I've heard so far.
If these bikes had 5hp gas engines would we be having the same debate?
Agree with all of the above. It's not practical (or possible) to effectively police the trails and prevent slow encroachment of mods/boosted ebikes. The risks are obvious, people riding way too fast up (and down) which is going to create incidents especially on multi-use non-motorized trails.
Outside of the old/disabled-guy-who-can't pedal argument, I'm confused as to why anyone supports these. Want more laps? Shuttle or go to Whistler.
Posted by: grambo
Outside of the old/disabled-guy-who-can't pedal argument, I'm confused as to why anyone supports these. Want more laps? Shuttle or go to Whistler.
From an environmental aspect an e-bike is going to beat out shuttle laps or Whistler if you're driving up there from the city or further away.
the whole point of our non-motorized networks is that they aren't shuttle or bike park trails, nor do we want them to be. they're a different use type, they belong in designated places only.
With that logic, Seymour would be ebike friendly. As there are a large amount of shuttles going up the mountain at any given time.
^^^ yes and yes.
I'm just pointing out that there is one argument beyond the "old guy theory" as to why ebikes might be a viable choice.
To be perfectly honest I don't really have a huge issue with pedal assist bikes on normal trails as long as the user is respecting the already established rules of trail etiquette.
what sync siad. frankly I think there is ALOT of smuggly put fear mongering in this thread.
Posted by: trumpstinyhands
I took the dog for a walk on the Shore today. I don
t think Ive been there this year. Headed up Fromme partly to check out Lower Expresso. Everything is punched to ****. Hell I even landed on my ass walking down Penzoil as what used to be dirt is now just powder. Sure the weather has a big part to play but I`m pretty sure E-bikes have contributed 0% to the damage. People skidding, hitting things too fast for their skill set, Enduroing, trying to get that stupid KOM than no-one else gives a toss about etc all have a far greater impact than some old guy on an E-bike.
BTW....old guys can shred pretty good...even on an e-bike...and e-bikes are available to young guys as well.
Part of the issue you mention has more to do with the dry weather and the inability for the soil to stick...even seldom ridden trails are getting dusted.
And isn't that part of the point....making it easier to get onto Fromme and run laps means that the trails see more traffic, therefore more wear. But we digress....
At the moment, e-bikes are low-presence. Based on personal observation, (I ride Fromme 3 -5 days a week) I would guess that impact is currently minimal. But that will change....and that is the concern.
The point of the discussion is not what is happening NOW, but what the future holds. If anything, mountain bikers should be sensitive to the history of our sport and the change in access over the years. It may not have been a problem, but a perception....and perception seems to rule the land (remember when the Sierra Club banned ALL mechanical transportation from US Park trails? That included wheelchairs).
Remember when we used to be able to ride Singing Pass? Garibaldi Lake?
From a personal perspective, I would have no issue if the current crop of e-bikes were shuttling up Cypress/Seymour. The road certainly sees a number of bike-laden vehicles running multiple laps. But Fromme is a place to get away from the focus on downhill fun and has a bit of an Earn-Your-Turns groove. Sort of like a back country ski tour vs lift-serviced ski resort. I wouldn't quite say that e-bikes are like snow mobiles to a back country skier (granted, far quieter), but I think you get my point. Further to Syncro's comment about the Chilcotins, I could imagine the day when a back country outfitter would offer 5 day tours to guests on rented e-bikes....and there goes the sense of remoteness.
Last edited by: mudrunner on Aug. 5, 2017, 8:15 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
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