the biggest mistake in mountain biking....

I like wide varieties of trails, it's awesome to have options.

I like wide varieties of trails, it's awesome to have options.

Pure crazy talk man.

We can't go having a wide variety of trails to suite a broad spectrum of riders. Must have narrow focus.

Also a rider cannot and MUST not sometimes like riding smoother less challenging trails if they ALSO like rough technical trails. They must choose just ONE side in this battle and defend it to the death, you must be all tech gnar or all flow.

No mixing of trail types within a trail system. If someone from Vancouver wants to ride XCish trails they had better get themselves in the car and drive to Squamish, the Shore had some skinny's built back in 1996 so there MUST not be any XCish riding in it's trail network.

Single vision man, no variety allowed.

Pure crazy talk man.

We can't go having a wide variety of trails to suite a broad spectrum of riders. Must have narrow focus.

Also a rider cannot and MUST not sometimes like riding smoother less challenging trails if they ALSO like rough technical trails. They must choose just ONE side in this battle and defend it to the death, you must be all tech gnar or all flow.

No mixing of trail types within a trail system. If someone from Vancouver wants to ride XCish trails they had better get themselves in the car and drive to Squamish, the Shore had some skinny's built back in 1996 so there MUST not be any XCish riding in it's trail network.

Single vision man, no variety allowed.

I've thought about it, you're totally right, I definitely need to get more dickish about my trail preferences.

We can't go having a wide variety of trails to suite a broad spectrum of riders. Must have narrow focus.

I agree 100%. All trails should be only of the one single type of trail I like to ride. Anything else is unacceptable! There should also be a ban on kids and newbies on trails because experienced riders need lots of room to shred.

I've thought about it, you're totally right, I definitely need to get more dickish about my trail preferences.

Hey, if you guys are having a go at my post then I think you missed my point. But maybe that's not the case.

Nothing wrong with having lots of everything. Everything wrong with taking 90% or more of the funding to build machined trails, or mow down existing trails because newcomers think they are too hard, or only approving flow trails while closing steep natural trails. And absolutely everything wrong with believing that carving up the forest with a machine is better for the environment than steep natural single track.

not directly at you, Kram…just the general sentiment. for decades the vast majority of trails and trail systems around the world, and specifically BC, have been heavily weighted towards the black/double black spectrum. So, yeah, it seems like a lot of effort is being placed on the beginner/intermediate spectrum because, we haven't had many of those trails and we have had a lot of work to do to add those to have a better balanced system.

Can't we have new discussions on this site. Seems like a bad movie with a hundred shitty sequels repeating the same story lines.

My take: It doesn't matter.
People will walk into the woods and build trails they desire. Yup, they might get shut down, and yes "the man" might make an example of you. The hardest trails tend to be built by those who have a vision and a dream. "The man," does not have that. I also teach my son that "the man" hates independent volunteerism.

As far as Flow trails… I have no problem with them. Most towns actually don't have many of these. Squamish has two, Half Nelson, and Pseudo Pstuga. I wouldn't count tinder (and that trail would have been hell to build with out a machine). The greatest thing about them is that they are popular, and take people away from more "primitive trails".

As far as sustainable, in Squamish, we build trails in future cutblocks. Those trees, are going to come down eventually. And in 20+ years new ones will be there. Head to the barber shop beside Sushi Zen in Squamish. Great photo of Edith Lake as a cut block.

As far as kids being the reason we build easy trails. I wouldn't worry. The one's I hang out with have no problem riding technical trails, and have no problem walking stuff. They know that to progress you must develop skills and conquer fear over time.

Biggest mistake in mountain biking. Not creating a limit on the number of times discussions/threads are allowed to repeat.

not directly at you, Kram…just the general sentiment. for decades the vast majority of trails and trail systems around the world, and specifically BC, have been heavily weighted towards the black/double black spectrum. So, yeah, it seems like a lot of effort is being placed on the beginner/intermediate spectrum because, we haven't had many of those trails and we have had a lot of work to do to add those to have a better balanced system.

I don't really mind that so much, as I see some benefit to having more people involved. It's good for my wife to have more options as well for sure (though funny enough she doesn't like trails like Half Nelson or Crank it Up).

It's just frustrating that 5 years ago you could build what you want around here and nobody cared, and now it has to be neutered to get approval and it's all using the bullshit environmental excuse. I'm probably a little more sore than most because I took a week off work without pay to build a trail and it got shut down which I think makes it officially the first one in Squamish to be closed. It was entirely built in an area flagged to be logged in a year or two (which is why I put it there) and it was closed because it's "an environmentally sensitive area". Same thing just happened to another double black trail recently, yet if it's blue level it goes unnoticed. I don't know the details, but a local story I heard is that there are guys who are going through the right channels and its been nearly two years and still no approval, and they are being told they will have to have easy ride arounds for all the double black lines, when pretty much the entire trail will be double black. So they would have to essentially build two trails on top of each other, if they ever get approval. The approval process and the funding allocation is incredibly one sided. And that's where I feel there's a total lack of respect and understanding of the roots of the sport. The west coast was famous for MTB long before Half Nelson went in, and it's all thanks to volunteer rogue building and now there's a shift that is tipping the balance toward the other direction and I don't think it will be too long before it's gone too far and it will be very hard to pull it back the other way.

It's not about elitism. It's about allowing both ends of the spectrum to continue to get their stoke by building the kinds of legitimate trails they like to ride, and that's not what's going on right now. This is a trajectory I'm not stoked about.

Biggest mistake in mountain biking. Not creating a limit on the number of times discussions/threads are allowed to repeat.

Hey, shouldn't you be out building me some burly lines instead of taking part in this tiresome discussion? Chop chop!

Pure crazy talk man.

We can't go having a wide variety of trails to suite a broad spectrum of riders. Must have narrow focus.

Also a rider cannot and MUST not sometimes like riding smoother less challenging trails if they ALSO like rough technical trails. They must choose just ONE side in this battle and defend it to the death, you must be all tech gnar or all flow.

No mixing of trail types within a trail system. If someone from Vancouver wants to ride XCish trails they had better get themselves in the car and drive to Squamish, the Shore had some skinny's built back in 1996 so there MUST not be any XCish riding in it's trail network.

Single vision man, no variety allowed.

I was thinking the same thing^^^^^ Plus you are only allowed to have one bike, and can't ride with another person of a different skill level….
Last eve rode Boogieman, then a flowy day tonight with the wife is great option. All levels all having fun. Isn't that what its about? Having fun?
Keep it up Trail Builders, cheers

This is happening in North Van too but the masses want the gold trails (that are ironically falling apart in dust now) and the masses will get what they want. Meanwhile anyone who builds outside the NSMBA Watchmen junta are derisively referred to as "Rogues" building unsanctioned and the NSMBA has no problem punching climbing trails through what were useable old trails. But hey, those were just unsanctioned loamers so who cares right?

But oh yeah go to Townhalls or talk to the directors and all will be well - right right?

Dam so now I'm a rogue and here I though I was just rebellious.

I rode CBC the other day, I can't believe i liked that trail before.
This trail is in some serious need of dumbing down, or should i say "Flow".
I know, riders have Flow, not trails.

Fixed this for you to reflect the reality of the North Van drama

Can't we have new discussions on this site. Seems like a bad movie with a hundred shitty sequels repeating the same story lines.

My take: It doesn't matter.
People will walk into the woods and build trails they desire. Yup, they might get shut down, and yes "Mark Wood" might make an example of you. The hardest trails tend to be built by those who have a vision and a dream. "Mark Wood" does not have that. I also teach my son that "Mark Wood" hates independent volunteerism.

Therefore the NSMBA you're either with us or against us spiel. And anyone who's not a WATCHMEN is a rogue

Lucky for us all woodie seems to be doing is leaving nasty voice mails. Oh hurt feelings

Kram: good posts. Some of the best I have read. I agree 100%.

The point that seems to be missed is this: it is NOT the fact that trails are being flowed down or dumbed down, but when it is done on previously harder trails, the HARDER parts are not preserved. They are CUT OUT, and not left as an option for riders whom are use to such bits. Moreover, by cutting the harder bits out, the newer riders have NO IDEA what the trail was previous, and with the harder bits gone, there is nothing to shoot for, no goal, no "upping the ante". And don't tell me "there are harder trails to up the ante with". On Fromme in particular, I see many going down the same trails: Seventh (all paved) to Espresso (all flow, all gold (sic) dust). Now, Digger DID leave the old school path of Espresso intact, but I have yet to see anyone ride it. Very few ride Upper Crippler, Digger, Grannies, despite the fact they are WELL MARKED and OBVIOUS. I don't see the riders doing the easier stuff today upping the ante to harder stuff. Fine. But the conclusion (wrong in my book) is that the resultant is that the harder more tech trails are not favoured. Bullshit. The core riders out there all ride it, but the sheer numbers of riders today means the easier, groomed, more soft trails get the work and ink simply due to numbers and exposure and use. Personally, the aforementioned trails I ride regularly need minimal work. So few go on them nature takes care of it, and they all ride awesome. My point of contention is that the powers that be THINK the armouring of Seventh is a good thing, and think all such trails should be so. But the truth is: if you do not diversify your portfolio, you cannot adapt, weather change or improve. Look at Executioner: it was buffed up top, the bottom half was cut out (which taught anyone skills on steep descents) and removed that classic rockface ride on the bottom. When you remove tough steep descents and provide none how do newer riders learn such skills? Where do they go to find it and thus at least try? It is like removing math from school and expecting people to still be able to add and count money. Nature provides the best features, like the rock on Family Guy, but once gone…….. now we get Dreamweaver (which is devoid of anything interesting and only attracts hikers to go further than intended) but a part of Bitches Brew was saved (albeit sanitized). Crinkum was paved over and all the old school bits were removed. Not left for exploration, but gone. Natural High will not be resurrected. And what of the parking lot to be completed? Do you know how many more "alternate users" will flock to Mtn. Hwy to park and then wander through the woods oblivious to what is going on? Initiate hikers tend to walk what is easiest: paved smooth trails. I predict a radical influx of hikers going up Crinkum, Seventh, Bobsled, King of the SHore….. all buffed trails the riders EXPECT to be free of people……. I can't wait.

But without any work there would be no support from local governing bodies, and without that we would be nowhere. It is interesting that there was none of this 20 years ago. But like anything once it goes mainstream the suits get in the act.

I recall the addage "mamma don't mind what mamma don't know". Just a thought.

But I suspect given time, the pendulum will swing around. Eventually all the groomed stuff will end up being so labour intensive that regardless of the work many will wander out and away to explore other trails once the "edge" comes back. Everything: clothing, cars, music all runs on a 20 year cycle, and on this we have about 10 maybe 15 years until the core stuff is "mainstream". I just hope my body is in enough shape to put up with it by then. Time will tell.