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Squamish just ain't what it used to be

July 1, 2020, 9:50 p.m.
Posts: 675
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: Bull_Dozer

Posted by: syncro

having your climbing groove busted

First world problems. I'm not an e-biker, and don't plan on being one anytime soon, I just think that we as mountain bikers (and outdoor enthusiasts in general) are quite spoiled (especially in this part of the world) and to get riled up about such minor occurrences is unjustified. "I went on a 2 hour mountain bike ride on some of the best trails in the world, but I had to pull over a few times to let some e-bikers pass me a few times during my ride...". 

Rider traffic has never once been an issue for me outside of riding the most popular trails in the WBP on the busiest days.

Context matters, it's not as simple as pulling a partial quote from my post.

If I'm busting a lung to clean a  difficult section of a climb and someone on an ebike is riding my tail and being aggro about getting by then they can get stuffed and wait for an appropriate place to pass and do it in a reasonable manner. I have no issue slowing up at the right spot so a faster climber can get by as long as they're good about it. Likewise, if I get stuck behind a slower rider I'll hang back a bit and wait for an appropriate opportunity to pass. It's got sweet fuck all to do with first world problems or being spoiled and everything to do with not being a shitty person.

July 1, 2020, 9:55 p.m.
Posts: 17885
Joined: Oct. 28, 2003

A perfect day.  Trails were empty, Alice lake was warm an the beer was cold.  #goodtimesonbikes

July 2, 2020, 6:58 a.m.
Posts: 1029
Joined: Feb. 5, 2011

Posted by: RAHrider

Out of curiosity, how long have you been riding Squamish? If you've only been riding there in the past 5 or so years, you don't actually know what you are missing. I don't expect any sympathy. There is a reason I work 1/2 time on the island - I don't want to share everything with 2 million other people all the time - call me "spoiled."

I have the same feeling about skiing Whistler. If you had the experience 20 years ago, the experience these days is not the same. I'm not saying that Squamish and Whistler are not worth it, just not what they used to be.

The point I am trying to make isn't specific to Squamish... more just biking (outside of the WBP) in the entire Sea to Sky area. Yes, biking is popular here in general, but we also have a ridiculous amount of trails and riding areas. I've rarely ever felt crowded in any non bike park ride and I actually like the days when more people are out. I honestly wish that more people would be into mountain biking because I think it's a great sport, and I think there's still so much excess capacity in our trail systems. Mountain biking is still a pretty "extreme" sport and the cost of a bike is very high, so I don't think we'll ever have too many riders. Plus, the more people out riding, the more it can be justified to allocate more time and effort to maintaining the trail systems and building new trails, etc. 

With skiing Whistler, I totally agree that it's way too busy, especially given how much they are charging for a lift ticket.

July 2, 2020, 7:03 a.m.
Posts: 1029
Joined: Feb. 5, 2011

Posted by: syncro

Context matters, it's not as simple as pulling a partial quote from my post.

If I'm busting a lung to clean a  difficult section of a climb and someone on an ebike is riding my tail and being aggro about getting by then they can get stuffed and wait for an appropriate place to pass and do it in a reasonable manner. I have no issue slowing up at the right spot so a faster climber can get by as long as they're good about it. Likewise, if I get stuck behind a slower rider I'll hang back a bit and wait for an appropriate opportunity to pass. It's got sweet fuck all to do with first world problems or being spoiled and everything to do with not being a shitty person.

For sure. Being an aggressive jerk is a totally different story. I've just been getting the impression that a lot of MTB'ers are getting pissed off from the pure existence of e-bikers (as they fundamentally disagree with the concept of an e-bike) rather than it being an aggression issue.

July 2, 2020, 9:22 a.m.
Posts: 50
Joined: Feb. 16, 2013

The "aggressive ebike jerk" on the uphill has been an issue I've been struggling with a surprising amount, mostly since the start of Covid times. I think a lot of people pulled the trigger, after either being very infrequent mountain bikers, or always having thought it was something they wanted to get into. Either way, there's way more people on them over the last 6 months, and a lot of those folks don't have experience with the etiquette side of the sport. I was amazed to encounter this same situation on 4(!) consecutive rides up No Quarter on Fromme in May (why wouldn't you ebike up the fire road??). And let me tell you, after being practically pushed off the trail at your upper cardio threshold, it's not the easiest time to play the good samaritan, love thy neighbour, "just glad everyone's out here", free instructional guide to the motorized newbies. I don't give a flying F how you get up the hill, but have a bit of respect for the fact that people are working their asses off to accomplish the same thing. And yeah, don't be a dick, ESPECIALLY if you aren't even getting out of breath or breaking a sweat whilst being a dick.

July 2, 2020, 10:13 a.m.
Posts: 1
Joined: July 2, 2020

Respect your elders. I see the braiding point, but it is a small point. Flow junkies respect the old school lines , all hail old school. Ebikes are perfectly aceptable, don't be a trail snob. We can all get along.

July 2, 2020, 1:26 p.m.
Posts: 675
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: Bull_Dozer

For sure. Being an aggressive jerk is a totally different story. I've just been getting the impression that a lot of MTB'ers are getting pissed off from the pure existence of e-bikers (as they fundamentally disagree with the concept of an e-bike) rather than it being an aggression issue.

I think it was like that in the beginning, but it seems general negative attitudes towards ebikers have softened. From some of the discussions I've seen it appears that a some/many ebikers lack courtesy when passing on climbs and just blast on through without any consideration at all. I expect somewhere around 10-15% of people to behave badly, but with ebikes on climbers the numbers seem to be higher. I recognize too that impression is purely anecdotal and not based on any hard data, but the "stories" are out there.

July 2, 2020, 2:34 p.m.
Posts: 93
Joined: March 13, 2017

Pull over for motorized riders at your leisure, that's what I do. They have a motor to re-accelerate (and it's not like you're making them stop), I do not, so I will get out of the way in a spot that I do not have to stop or slow my cadence. 

I think it's the same as downhill riders yielding to uphill riders on a 2 way trail.

July 3, 2020, 9:38 a.m.
Posts: 334
Joined: June 28, 2011

They have a motor, let them pick the passing point. I ain't moving over for anyone who isn't putting in serious effort.

July 3, 2020, 10:22 a.m.
Posts: 11
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

So I ride an eBike and a regular bike. 

Regardless of which one I am on, I always stop and wait for people to clear a section. Especially on the eBike since as someone said earlier, I have a motor to get going again. 

Is this really such a difficult thing to do? Full disclosure, I am in the USA. 

Its just too bad that people are being so selfish.

July 3, 2020, 11:54 a.m.
Posts: 930
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Posted by: Kieran

They have a motor, let them pick the passing point. I ain't moving over for anyone who isn't putting in serious effort.

Just because a rider is on an emtb doesn’t mean they aren’t putting in serious effort. I wish we could put that myth to bed.

July 3, 2020, 12:18 p.m.
Posts: 1695
Joined: Feb. 26, 2015

Posted by: FLATCH

Posted by: Kieran

They have a motor, let them pick the passing point. I ain't moving over for anyone who isn't putting in serious effort.

Just because a rider is on an emtb doesn’t mean they aren’t putting in serious effort. I wish we could put that myth to bed.

One second the bike industry is saying it's so easy to ride a emtb you get way more laps in, ride with your fit friends.... Then the next second it's just as good a workout as a regular bike. I demoed one a year or so ago, flew up NQ putting in minimal effort def wasn't the latter...so I dont know where this myth comes from? Was it awesome getting up there so fast and easy? Sure it was.

July 3, 2020, 12:30 p.m.
Posts: 349
Joined: Aug. 10, 2012

Posted by: FLATCH

Posted by: Kieran

They have a motor, let them pick the passing point. I ain't moving over for anyone who isn't putting in serious effort.

Just because a rider is on an emtb doesn’t mean they aren’t putting in serious effort. I wish we could put that myth to bed.

I doubt the guy who passed me on Mtn Hwy while riding with one hand on the bars and the other hand flipping through his Smart Phone (texts? playlist?) and disappeared at about 4x my speed was putting in much of an effort (except maybe his thumb/screen dexterity). And no....I had no problem with that...there was plenty of room....in fact I found it quite funny.

July 3, 2020, 1:21 p.m.
Posts: 11
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

For me, it depends on the climb. Smooth and straight climb you typically just grind up on a normal bike? Easy day on the eBike. 

Slow technical climbs are actually more difficult on my ebike. It weighs 56 lbs and the Bosch motor has a lag in it...takes a pedal stroke to kick in. I tend to use a lot of pedal kicks to get up ledges and techy bits. Its tough to get the timing right. And...it takes a lot more body English to manuever a bike that heavy up a tech climb.  I can actually climb technical trails easier on my regular bike. 

I get what you're saying though. Lots of riders around here seem to ride them on mellower trails which baffles me. Its not much fun. I love climbing ridiculous stuff with it.

July 3, 2020, 2:14 p.m.
Posts: 675
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: FLATCH

Posted by: Kieran

They have a motor, let them pick the passing point. I ain't moving over for anyone who isn't putting in serious effort.

Just because a rider is on an emtb doesn’t mean they aren’t putting in serious effort. I wish we could put that myth to bed.

The point is that it can be much easier for an ebiker because they have a motor helping them. So sure, an ebiker can put in serious effort uphill if the trail allows it, but comparatively they need to put in less effort to pass someone grinding up a steep section of trail. Based on that, imo anyway, the ebiker can wait until there's a good place to make a safe pass. At the end of the day the local trails aren't a race track, so there should be no expectation for someone to pull over for you because you're going faster - it's done as a courtesy to other riders. I'm happy to pull over and let someone pass when I feel there's an appropriate place, and likewise I'll wait to pass someone at an appropriate place and let them know before hand. Whether it's on an ebike or not, passing should follow the same principles. Unfortunately it seems that some ebikers feel entitled to just blast on by without any warning or consideration for other riders and that is BS.


 Last edited by: syncro on July 3, 2020, 2:17 p.m., edited 1 time in total.

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