Shore's Future not so bright

Can we have sanctioned trail days (yes that means NSMBA supported) on repairing and maintaining some old school trails (not graveling them)?

Where, by the way, does all the $$ go that is collected from sponsors? We use to do trail maintenance without them just fine. And as far as I understand none of the volunteers are being paid (thus the term volunteers). Shovels, buckets etc do not cost that much and chainsaws are becoming far less used with the anti wood construction.

In the recent past (when NSMBA got better organized to go up against the district) we didn't bow to what the DNV wanted. They want the $$ biking brings in and industry support and the council wants our votes so we had as much power as the DNV did when it came to decisions on trails. One statement I recall was "no loss of trails" yet Pink, despite some feeble battles, is considered gone (although still a good ride). Why the change? Is it from the $$ some people now receive?

Note: I'm asking questions although I'm sure I'll see many angry retorts to them. However these, and follow up questions once I get some honest answers, are just me trying to understand things.

While I applaud you for asking the questions, I for one find it a little frustrating that you, while clearly someone with strong opinions about how things should go, haven't made any effort to get informed before this.

All these questions were answered at the AGM six months ago and many were re-visited last night at the town hall meeting.

At the same time you seem to know a thing or two. When are you suggesting the nsmba didn't 'bow to what the district wanted?' When there were a total of six trail days a year, each day on one trail only? With so few resources there was nothing to bow about.

This year, if memory from last night serves, it looks like there will be 100 trail days. Multiple groups will put days in on a single day. Last year nsmb.com alone organized trail days that added up to 1000 hours of work on Expresso.

There's no need to ask permission for doing nothing - or very little. So if you'd like some answers I'd like to know more about the glory days you are talking about when the nsmba didn't 'bow' as you put it.

funny the OP story is all about the progression of the sport from the old days but he wants it stopped circa 2004. I dont see alot of guys riding BMXs on skidder roads anymore.

Pardon my ignorance as I have not lived in North Van for almost 9 years…. but I thought that trails had to be "paved" or made more sustainable in order to keep them open? Otherwise they would have been shut down. Is there an element of truth in that?

it would seem to me after attending the meeting last night that the shore's future is brighter than ever.

as i'm sure has been pointed out, there is no shortage of old-school trails out there that are covered in small sticks and debris because they are barely ridden any more.

Join date May 2014.
1 post.
No replies since the 1st post.

Must be juicy bait the OP cast out.

Can we have sanctioned trail days (yes that means NSMBA supported) on repairing and maintaining some old school trails (not graveling them)?

Where, by the way, does all the $$ go that is collected from sponsors? We use to do trail maintenance without them just fine. And as far as I understand none of the volunteers are being paid (thus the term volunteers). Shovels, buckets etc do not cost that much and chainsaws are becoming far less used with the anti wood construction.

Can't speak to first question but as someone who did lots of and helped organize lots of trail days in the past the TAP methods are way better. There's no comparison. More organized. Better planned. Long term focused. Even the touches like revegetation and keeping the work space looking good are something pretty much everyone can learn from.

Can we have sanctioned trail days (yes that means NSMBA supported) on repairing and maintaining some old school trails (not gravelling them)?

Where, by the way, does all the $$ go that is collected from sponsors? We use to do trail maintenance without them just fine. And as far as I understand none of the volunteers are being paid (thus the term volunteers). Shovels, buckets etc do not cost that much and chainsaws are becoming far less used with the anti wood construction.

In the recent past (when NSMBA got better organized to go up against the district) we didn't bow to what the DNV wanted. They want the $$ biking brings in and industry support and the council wants our votes so we had as much power as the DNV did when it came to decisions on trails. One statement I recall was "no loss of trails" yet Pink, despite some feeble battles, is considered gone (although still a good ride). Why the change? Is it from the $$ some people now receive?

Note: I'm asking questions although I'm sure I'll see many angry retorts to them. However these, and follow up questions once I get some honest answers, are just me trying to understand things.

Hello,

Rachid here, NSMBA Treasurer for 4 of the past 5 years.

To answer your first question, Yes, and they are coming, however I can't provide you with a timeline at this time. The intricacy is that all trail days must first be approved by the Land Managers, and in many cases it takes more work and time for approval to perform maintenance or rehabilitation on "old school trails" with advanced features due to the planning required to ensure that the intention of the original trail is not affected. This was addressed at last night's NSMBA Town Hall, if you want additional details, please contact us directly at [email protected]

The money goes into having more trail days. Trail maintainers who lead the volunteer teams are paid, commensurate with experience, a daily wage based on the hours put into trail work. They are not paid for directly, but expected to perform the following additional tasks: flagging, prep, and drafting a report on work performed. The average pay per hour, when all is incorporated is just over minimum wage. It's a labour of love.

In addition to the funding sources that you've mentioned, the NSMBA solicits community grants, donations and private funding in order to tackle larger projects that could not be performed through volunteer or TAP trail days alone. These would include days or weeks where senior trail builders are paid to go in and perform maintenance on hazardous sections of trail or on technical or hard to access trails where a volunteer effort would not be appropriate (either because of liability issues, need to use machinery, skill required or other).

Anybody can become an NSMBA trail maintainer/builder, provided they have an active membership, attend a Trail Builder's Academy session and show an interest in learning the craft.

We used to be able to perform approximately 8 community days per year, and sometimes fewer than 20 people showed up. We have stats, that I can send you if you like, just PM me. Unfortunately, we weren't doing just fine, we were able to address 1 or 2 full trails per year. In my opinion that isn't sufficient to address the astounding amount of work required across Seymour and Fromme alone, not to mention Cypress.

With TAP and membership money, we are on track for 100 trail days this year. TAP combines funding from the sponsor, which is used to pay the builder, with the manpower of that same organization. The sponsor ensures that there are volunteers out to help with the work.

Some of the money goes to paying the one full time employee that the NSMBA has engaged. His name is Mark Wood and he does the work for 3 men earning twice as much. He loves the trails, he's passionate about the shore and he has brough credibility, consistency and professionalism to the organization.

Volunteers, are not paid, as they volunteer. NSMBA Directors are not paid either, in a typical year a director is expected to donation between 400 and 800 hours of their time. If you don't believe me, ask my wife, the time commitment is a bit of sore point for her.

I welcome your feedback and further questions, please email me: [email protected]

Can we have sanctioned trail days (yes that means NSMBA supported) on repairing and maintaining some old school trails (not graveling them)?

Where, by the way, does all the $$ go that is collected from sponsors? We use to do trail maintenance without them just fine. And as far as I understand none of the volunteers are being paid (thus the term volunteers). Shovels, buckets etc do not cost that much and chainsaws are becoming far less used with the anti wood construction.

Note: I'm asking questions although I'm sure I'll see many angry retorts to them. However these, and follow up questions once I get some honest answers, are just me trying to understand things.

There have been many many opportunities for you to learn about this in the past. Here is the short version of it.

money from the sponsors go to moving the dirt that you ride your bike on. for a association to function sustainably, some members need to be paid to do the job full-time. organizing something the magnitude of what has been done over the past few years is nearly impossible to do on a volunteer time basis. Tools are not inexpensive, if they get used for a 100 trail days, a lot of them will get damaged or require maintenance so that they can keep being used. this costs money. as for "we used to do trail maintenance without them just fine," no we did not do trail maintenance just fine. we cut trails into the mountain or moved lines over when the old one got beat up, but we never did maintenance. frankly, most of us didn't know what "maintenance" meant. We've all had to learn.

chainsaws do not equal trail building. they're fun and cool, but anyone that help maintains trails knows that the real work is done with mattocks, shovels, and buckets. I would strongly encourage you to participate in the builders academy. it's free and it'll open your eyes and help you understand what goes into keeping the trails that you ride open. also, there isn't an anti-wood mantra. it may seem like that because a lot of the older wood structures were taken down, but that's because a shit ton of them were built all at once and not cared for. logically, they would degrade and rot out at the same time. it'll take time to start building them again, but it will be done in collaboration with the land managers, riding community, and vision of the BUILDERS.

Can we have sanctioned trail days (yes that means NSMBA supported) on repairing and maintaining some old school trails (not graveling them)?

if you want to have that then get involved. show up at meetings like one last night. it is public. was made public. there were many notices about it. get on the NSMBA website, twitter feed, FB page. the NSMB boards is not where you air these wants or opinions. Nothing will ever become of it.

In the recent past (when NSMBA got better organized to go up against the district) we didn't bow to what the DNV wanted. They want the $$ biking brings in and industry support and the council wants our votes so we had as much power as the DNV did when it came to decisions on trails. One statement I recall was "no loss of trails" yet Pink, despite some feeble battles, is considered gone (although still a good ride). Why the change? Is it from the $$ some people now receive?

it's the same cycle as with any event/organization/movement. the first wave is full of gusto and many idealistic visions. however, with anything we realize that this world isn't only populated by us and what we want to do. no individual or group is in charge of the forest on the north shore. also, if you were more aware of things you would realize that the NSMBA was not necessarily better organized in the past and that going "against" the district was a naive approach. Going against someone is easy to do, working with someone to find a solution takes real courage but provides a lasting realistic solution. I really encourage you get out into the public meetings and get involved with the NSMBA, at least come out to a trail day or better yet take a trail builders academy class.

also, the NSMBA has not changed their approach because people are getting paid. for one, there isn't much money in it. they probably get paid less than you. but they are willing to do it because they love the trails and are willing to actually do something about keeping them attainable. they do it because there is a need, they are paid to be the consistent voice to stand up for the trails on the shore. they are paid to ensure that work and money is distributed smartly an evenly throughout the trails to ensure trails for us to ride in the future, to make sure that there is a dialogue with the land managers so when they impose changes we can respond with an informed and knowledgeable response. because an informed response is better received than one that is not.

Upper Crippler, Bookwus, Grannies, Skull, Digger, UOC, and lower Executioner are all still sanctioned and open trails.

The talk in the OP about loosing lower Execitioner is wrong. You don't need to flow down into Dreamweaver, you can still cross over Dreamweaver and ride the steep gnar of Lower Executioner down to the BP.

Pink Starfish is a temporary closure. The political battle has been put on hold, the DNV was almost ready to issuing a permit but some vocal opposition had them pull back.

While I applaud you for asking the questions, I for one find it a little frustrating that you, while clearly someone with strong opinions about how things should go, haven't made any effort to get informed before this.

All these questions were answered at the AGM six months ago and many were re-visited last night at the town hall meeting.

At the same time you seem to know a thing or two. When are you suggesting the nsmba didn't 'bow to what the district wanted?' When there were a total of six trail days a year, each day on one trail only? With so few resources there was nothing to bow about.

This year, if memory from last night serves, it looks like there will be 100 trail days. Multiple groups will put days in on a single day. Last year nsmb.com alone organized trail days that added up to 1000 hours of work on Expresso.

There's no need to ask permission for doing nothing - or very little. So if you'd like some answers I'd like to know more about the glory days you are talking about when the nsmba didn't 'bow' as you put it.

Never used the term glory days but I guess you feel I alluded to that.

I felt the trails for the most part were being well taken care of with the minimal efforts of the few trail days. That might be in part because the ridership was limited compared to today where the mantra is all trails for all level of riders. With that new philosophy in mind I guess you need to maintain 100+ trails a year as everyone now can ride them all.

Sorry about not being informed and attending the meetings. I use to but they frustrated me too much. Too political for one (yes it's everywhere I know). Plus if you have a different opinion from the vast majority then you verbally get "beaten up", cannot bring in a point against what the masses have already decided, and end up angry and frustrated. And if the vocal minority actually got together to debate anything with the masses it would be a long drawn out ugly thing that in the end would go no where. But anyway - I'm not here to vent, just answering your questions and ask my own.

I asked questions and knew I'd get raked over the coals for it :p

Oh and I'm a bit tired of the "well shut up and get involved" mantra everyone throws at me. I did, I was a trail leader even at one point. Lots of politics even then. My efforts have moved to other playing fields. Thus I'm not complaining any more, although perhaps I still hold some grudges which leak out, I was simply asking questions.

Hello,

Rachid here, NSMBA Treasurer for 4 of the past 5 years.

To answer your first question, Yes, and they are coming, however I can't provide you with a timeline at this time. The intricacy is that all trail days must first be approved by the Land Managers, and in many cases it takes more work and time for approval to perform maintenance or rehabilitation on "old school trails" with advanced features due to the planning required to ensure that the intention of the original trail is not affected. This was addressed at last night's NSMBA Town Hall, if you want additional details, please contact us directly at [email protected]

The money goes into having more trail days. Trail maintainers who lead the volunteer teams are paid, commensurate with experience, a daily wage based on the hours put into trail work. They are not paid for directly, but expected to perform the following additional tasks: flagging, prep, and drafting a report on work performed. The average pay per hour, when all is incorporated is just over minimum wage. It's a labour of love.

In addition to the funding sources that you've mentioned, the NSMBA solicits community grants, donations and private funding in order to tackle larger projects that could not be performed through volunteer or TAP trail days alone. These would include days or weeks where senior trail builders are paid to go in and perform maintenance on hazardous sections of trail or on technical or hard to access trails where a volunteer effort would not be appropriate (either because of liability issues, need to use machinery, skill required or other).

Anybody can become an NSMBA trail maintainer/builder, provided they have an active membership, attend a Trail Builder's Academy session and show an interest in learning the craft.

We used to be able to perform approximately 8 community days per year, and sometimes fewer than 20 people showed up. We have stats, that I can send you if you like, just PM me. Unfortunately, we weren't doing just fine, we were able to address 1 or 2 full trails per year. In my opinion that isn't sufficient to address the astounding amount of work required across Seymour and Fromme alone, not to mention Cypress.

With TAP and membership money, we are on track for 100 trail days this year. TAP combines funding from the sponsor, which is used to pay the builder, with the manpower of that same organization. The sponsor ensures that there are volunteers out to help with the work.

Some of the money goes to paying the one full time employee that the NSMBA has engaged. His name is Mark Wood and he does the work for 3 men earning twice as much. He loves the trails, he's passionate about the shore and he has brough credibility, consistency and professionalism to the organization.

Volunteers, are not paid, as they volunteer. NSMBA Directors are not paid either, in a typical year a director is expected to donation between 400 and 800 hours of their time. If you don't believe me, ask my wife, the time commitment is a bit of sore point for her.

I welcome your feedback and further questions, please email me: [email protected]

Thanx - the most professional response I've read from NSMBA. Very informative.

pon a small bike in the grease of March … yea there's no skill development happening on the shore at all….

http://www.pinkbike.com/video/353527

Nice work on private property, slight brake tap, line up the front and let er rip.

… the mantra is all trails for all level of riders. With that new philosophy in mind I guess you need to maintain 100+ trails a year as everyone now can ride them all.

The mission is trails for all, trails forever. That does not mean every trail is rideable by all as you suggest. It means there are trails for all skill levels to ride.

Can't speak to first question but as someone who did lots of and helped organize lots of trail days in the past the TAP methods are way better. There's no comparison. More organized. Better planned. Long term focused. Even the touches like revegetation and keeping the work space looking good are something pretty much everyone can learn from.

for the most part that's true, but at one point there was something different rolling. one or two people would pre-hike the trail to get a sense of what needed to be done. then the weekend before a group of the more experienced builders would hike the trail together and discuss the various sections that needed work. a plan was put together and a leader was assigned or someone volunteered to direct the work for a particular section on the trail day. on the trail day the volunteers that showed up were split up into groups with the work leaders and off they went. when the bodies were there it worked incredibly well. i remember a trail day on Ned's in particular where a huge amount of work was accomplished.

yes things are rolling and are much more succesful now, but don't discount some of the valubale things you and others contributed to back then. things like the corporate sponsorship program that Peter got going. some of the pillars of success that the nsmba enjoys today were sparks of opportunity not too long ago. i think it really does a diservice to people who have worked just as hard or harder in the past to make it seem that everyhting that came before TAP was unsuccessful. even though the organization is having more success as a whole today, we should all still appreciate what was accomplished in the past.