Shore's Future not so bright

I don't see anything in his comments that does discredit the predecessors.
TAP is an evolutionary step from the old trail days, it gets much larger, yet more focused involvement of the community and can cover a much larger range of trail for the now significantly larger riding population.

Anyone who is against the TAP program needs to understand that this isn't the 'good old days', nor will it ever be, the ridership has changed and the old trails were simply not sustainable* in that state.

*Sustainable is not just physical erosion, it covers liability issues, accessibiilty to the ridership, ease of repair and assessment access.

i didn't say discredit, i said discount - not the same thing.

and i don't think people are necessarily against TAP, just how some - not all - of the work gets done. the void is not as big as either side makes it out to be.

Never used the term glory days but I guess you feel I alluded to that.

I felt the trails for the most part were being well taken care of with the minimal efforts of the few trail days. That might be in part because the ridership was limited compared to today where the mantra is all trails for all level of riders. With that new philosophy in mind I guess you need to maintain 100+ trails a year as everyone now can ride them all.

Sorry about not being informed and attending the meetings. I use to but they frustrated me too much. Too political for one (yes it's everywhere I know). Plus if you have a different opinion from the vast majority then you verbally get "beaten up", cannot bring in a point against what the masses have already decided, and end up angry and frustrated. And if the vocal minority actually got together to debate anything with the masses it would be a long drawn out ugly thing that in the end would go no where. But anyway - I'm not here to vent, just answering your questions and ask my own.

I asked questions and knew I'd get raked over the coals for it :p

Oh and I'm a bit tired of the "well shut up and get involved" mantra everyone throws at me. I did, I was a trail leader even at one point. Lots of politics even then. My efforts have moved to other playing fields. Thus I'm not complaining any more, although perhaps I still hold some grudges which leak out, I was simply asking questions.

I'm glad you posed the question about old school more technical trails. Variety and challenge make this a vibrant and worthy place to ride. Without something to aspire to how do you improve? I rode Lower Boundary the other day and while I rode less than I used to, I loved it.

Contrary to your suggestion however, you aren't being raked over the coals for asking questions.

You said the nsmba currently bows down to the district. That is insulting and false. Mountain bikers are in a better position with the DNV than we have ever been, and for the first time the nsmba has an opportunity to influence the process instead of simply putting out fires. This is a direct result of the hard work of the nsmba board and Mark Wood.

You also imply that the nsmba isn't doing much with their still meagre budget - and that almost as much was accomplished before with fewer resources. False and so incredibly far from the truth it's hard to imagine you have actually ridden the Shore in the last few years.

Please ask questions and continue to get more informed. This is helpful to the process. But you should expect some backlash if you continue to approach the issue in this way.

Thanks for staying in the conversation. That's a great first step.

I'm glad you posed the question about old school more technical trails. Variety and challenge make this a vibrant and worthy place to ride. Without something to aspire to how do you improve? I rode Lower Boundary the other day and while I rode less than I used to, I loved it.

Contrary to your suggestion however, you aren't being raked over the coals for asking questions.

You said the nsmba currently bows down to the district. That is insulting and false. Mountain bikers are in a better position with the DNV than we have ever been, and for the first time the nsmba has an opportunity to influence the process instead of simply putting out fires. This is a direct result of the hard work of the nsmba board and Mark Wood.

You also imply that the nsmba isn't doing much with their still meagre budget - and that almost as much was accomplished before with fewer resources. False and so incredibly far from the truth it's hard to imagine you have actually ridden the Shore in the last few years.

Please ask questions and continue to get more informed. This is helpful to the process. But you should expect some backlash if you continue to approach the issue in this way.

Thanks for staying in the conversation. That's a great first step.

I didn't pose a question about more old school trails - that might have been the OP for this thread. I did ask about trail maintenance on such trails.

I did not mean to imply that NSMBA wasn't doing much with their budget. I simply asked where the money was going as I couldn't see why so much $$ was being used when very little was needed in the past. That point has been well explained now (NSMBA treasurer did a bang up job on this without condescension or argument just facts - I wish all those who hold a public position during the course of their discussions would act with such accord. Cam I am NOT referring to you here as you are the owner of this site which is NOT a public service. You may speak as you see fit. But I have read others who have decided to enter to a thread, holding a public position, yet not responding as professionally as they should.)

I will withdraw my remark re: NSMBA and bowing to DNV as I do not have enough information to make such a remark. My mistake.

Yes the general public may flame away, I'm fine with that.

I didn't pose a question about more old school trails - that might have been the OP for this thread. I did ask about trail maintenance on such trails.

I did not mean to imply that NSMBA wasn't doing much with their budget. I simply asked where the money was going as I couldn't see why so much $$ was being used when very little was needed in the past. That point has been well explained now (NSMBA treasurer did a bang up job on this without condescension or argument just facts - I wish all those who hold a public position during the course of their discussions would act with such accord. Cam I am NOT referring to you here as you are the owner of this site which is NOT a public service. You may speak as you see fit. But I have read others who have decided to enter to a thread, holding a public position, yet not responding as professionally as they should.)

I will withdraw my remark re: NSMBA and bowing to DNV as I do not have enough information to make such a remark. My mistake.

Yes the general public may flame away, I'm fine with that.

Little money was used in the past because little work got done. I'm sure Rachid or Mark have the numbers, but I would be fairly confident that if you used the amount of funding from members/sponsors, and made a dollar per man hour on the labour, then it would likely be a lower amount now than before, ie: the work being done is costing less to the sponsors because of efficiencies.

Patching a trail once a year will at best allow most of the drains to keep flowing. The TAP program is allowing the trails to be rehabilitated to a sustainable standard. I do to a limited degree agree with you that some of the character of the old trails has changed, and I used to ride them all and love the chunky, rooty nature of it, but times have changed, the ridership has increased, NSMBA is no longer working as a shadow group to keep the trails open for a few hundred people, it's working with municipalities across North America to keep trails open for the tens of thousands! Something will have to be compromised, and personally, I think that they have accomplished it all with very little compromise (eg: you can still ride Expresso old, and it's exactly the same as it always was, perhaps a little drier because of some of the new drainage work).

All said though, not everyone will love what has happened, and that's only natural. I've received negative feedback for trails that I've built, and it made me realise that what I like isn't what everyone likes, but from other feedback, it is what most people like.

I felt the trails for the most part were being well taken care of with the minimal efforts of the few trail days. .

Minimal effort on who's part?

I and only a few others over 5-10 years of the "good old days" of 6-8 public trail days per year spent a hell of a lot of volunteer effort to plan, get approval for, get posters out, arrange sponsors, get tools, try to get volunteer leaders of the old school to come out and lead a group, get 40-60 people herded to the trailhead, keep them working on the right thing, feed them lunch, get them down the hill safely, clean up the tools they left behind and then go back an finish off the random projects that may not have been finished quite right. phew!

I am personally very stoked on the sustainable model that we have now that has this workload spread out over many smaller teams lead by a responsible, professional leader for each group. It works amazingly well, and results in a far more quality output with far less volunteer burnout.

Then, only the most busy and most eroded trails were getting worked on, with the ones like Circuit 8 mudbog being ignored because they weren't highest priority for what we wanted to ride.

First year of TAP - 42 traildays. Second year - 70. Third - more than that, not sure. Fourth - we'll see! Wow!

I've 'come around' to the TAP program. I started mtb'ing about 4 years ago, tried to ride the NS about 15 years back, it took that long for me to try again.

When I got back on riding the NS, I developed, got good on a few trails, then they 'went and changed them' on me. I got over it. I explored new trails. There are days I love the technical stuff, days where I want a banked high speed descent down Fromme.

The NS trails are flippin' awesome. We have one of the most incredible network of well maintained trails anywhere, excellent involvement by the NSMBA, great relationships with the stakeholders and really great support by business'.

And . . . . THE TRAILS ARE FREE ! ! ! Yes, you can buy a trail pass, but nobody is making you. This is an incredible network of trails that are only asking that you get involved. No cost to you. This whole board, every discussion, pretty much embodies 'first world problems'. Life is good on the North Shore people.

As for the organization by the NSMBA, check out their calender . . .

http://nsmba.ca/nsmba-calendar-events

As for the organization by the NSMBA, check out their calender . . .

http://nsmba.ca/nsmba-calendar-events

Looks at all those TAP trail days on the calendar. Getting serious work done. Multiple trails at the same time, multiple days of the week, it's getting more people out and involved.

I wish I could call you an f'ing moron to your face.

You probably have never donated to the trails, helped work on them or have done anything to better the shore. but you have the right to crap all over it.

feel free to take up another sport since ours sucks so bad now.

I have given more trail maintenance than you have, trust me. I lived there. I have felled many trees, removed many branches, picked up many a garbage (and dog waste) and moved many rocks. I have helped Pete many times.

Do not ever come one here again being an ass and saying this. I am not some moron that fell out of a tree. I can bet you are the type who rides down CBC three times on a weekend with NO idea where or how the wood got there, or where the original line is.

Choose your words carefully. I would not of waxed so eloquently if I could not back it up.

Join date May 2014.
1 post.
No replies since the 1st post.

Must be juicy bait the OP cast out.

I have a life.

I ride, mountain bike, weightlift, fly fish…

I did this as a final straw to reach out. If I wanted to troll, I would be 16 with no university education and a 40+ years of life experience including 30 riding on the Shore.

You obviously don't read into details well.

Upper Crippler, Bookwus, Grannies, Skull, Digger, UOC, and lower Executioner are all still sanctioned and open trails.

The talk in the OP about loosing lower Execitioner is wrong. You don't need to flow down into Dreamweaver, you can still cross over Dreamweaver and ride the steep gnar of Lower Executioner down to the BP.

Pink Starfish is a temporary closure. The political battle has been put on hold, the DNV was almost ready to issuing a permit but some vocal opposition had them pull back.

BS about Executioner. I have yet been able to do the steep rockface at the end since the lower third is cut off since it is too steep and (erosional). The lower third you do today is the last bit of Bitches Brew which itself is bastardized since many of the original features are cut out.

I'll just let the picture below do the talking of the work we did today on the chunder bypass.
Because this is really what we do.
Old vs. New.

that's great and i highly doubt you'll see anyone, even the vocal minority, complaining about that work.

Wow, busy day on the 'net I see.
I missed all the action, was out building with Team Sugoi today.

This debate is endless, but its the choir who keeps coming to our public presentations that explain so much of why we are where we are and why we are doing what we are doing. Lui nails it.

I'll just let the picture below do the talking of the work we did today on the chunder bypass.
Because this is really what we do.
Old vs. New.

That does not even look like the same section,angle,forest,or trail. i cant imagine what it takes to go from one to the other.

I would not of waxed so eloquently if I could not back it up.

Too good to not be quoted.

I did this as a final straw to reach out. If I wanted to troll, I would be 16 with no university education and a 40+ years of life experience including 30 riding on the Shore.

The internet is your final 'straw'? After 30 years?

Maybe not a winning strategy as a last act but a decent place to start.