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Revitalizing the CBC trail on Seymour

June 10, 2021, 12:20 p.m.
Posts: 30
Joined: Oct. 25, 2009

CBC Update from Metro Vancouver

As part of Phase 1 of their 2018 Trails Strategic Plan, Metro Vancouver will be revitalizing the CBC trail on Seymour "with the assistance of LEES+Associates and IMBA (International Mountain Biking Association) Canada". Work will be starting this summer and the NSMBA will be assisting with certain projects.

I'm not sure whether to be happy or sad about this. On the one hand I never ride CBC as it's a little too janky even for my taste (C-buster & Neds forever! Don't you touch them!) but on the other hand isn't IMBAs mandate to flatten pretty much everything?


 Last edited by: bingobus on June 10, 2021, 12:20 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
June 10, 2021, 1 p.m.
Posts: 157
Joined: April 26, 2004

Yes was wondering about that.

The plan shows a climbing trail near CBC , but not a climbing trail from Mushroom up to switchback picnic area/top of Corkscrew.

Also they intend to make middle/lower Dales more like Upper Dales, which makes me sad since the existing Neds and middle/lower Dales are some of my favorite trails.

It looks like they took the trail survey info, where the majority of riders wanted easier flow trails, to be the raison d'etre for their master plan. So that means that for the most dedicated and invested riders (the ones that like old school, more challenging, and/or more natural trails) left out of the plan. No wonder, there is so much unauthorized trail building or riding "off the map".


 Last edited by: taprider on June 10, 2021, 6:29 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
June 10, 2021, 1:22 p.m.
Posts: 398
Joined: July 8, 2005

Posted by: taprider

Yes was wondering about that.

The plan shows a climbing near CBC , but not a climbing trail from Mushroom up to Pinch Flat Alley.

Also  they intend to make middle/lower Dales more like Upper Dales, which makes me sad since the existing Neds and middle/lower Dales are some of my favorite trails.

It looks like they took the trail survey info, where the majority of riders wanted easier flow trails, to be the raison d'etre for their master plan.  So that means that for the most dedicated and invested riders (the ones that like old school, more challenging, and/or more natural trails) left out of the plan.  No wonder, there is so much unauthorized trail building or riding "off the map".

What's your source on Metro making middle and lower Dale's more like upper?

June 10, 2021, 1:52 p.m.
Posts: 30
Joined: Oct. 25, 2009

Climbing up top would be nice. It would tempt me to ride a new CBC now and again even if it wasn't to my liking. It does seem a bit of an omission to not connect mushroom to the road though, somehow I can't quite clean that incline climbing route. Surely I remember we were promised upper Dales was as far as the "flow" was going down that side or am I dreaming?

June 10, 2021, 1:58 p.m.
Posts: 147
Joined: Feb. 16, 2013

Posted by: taprider

Also  they intend to make middle/lower Dales more like Upper Dales, which makes me sad...

That would be far beyond sad, in fact, down right tragic. That section of trail is my hardtail jank-happy place.

June 10, 2021, 2:41 p.m.
Posts: 112
Joined: Aug. 11, 2015

There's a dashed line around the curve of the switchback so assume they are proposing to widen it and make it climbable. Also make Pinch Flat Alley more climbable?

But yeah nothing shown how to get from Mushroom Trail up Incline to the road

June 10, 2021, 2:48 p.m.
Posts: 112
Joined: Aug. 11, 2015

Here's the text from the plan on Dales:

DALE’S TRAIL AND MUSHROOM LOT ACCESS TRAIL
Dale’s is a downhill mountain biking primary trail that runs from Cabin to the start of Forever After for
approximately 1.1km, descending about 160m. This is a “very difficult” (black diamond) rated trail.
According to the 2017 trail assessment Dale’s is in good condition. Dale’s has seen significant upgrades
over the last two years, including a new easy route around a difficult TTF located about half way down the
trail. However, there are portions of the trail that have not yet been upgraded and in order to provide a
seamless trail user experience the remainder of the trail should be upgraded.
The Mushroom Lot Access trail branches off of Dale’s and provides an exit point if the trail is too difficult for
some riders.
The Mushroom Lot Access trail is also a key connection to the CMHC lands. This trail was not
assessed but based on consultation with LSCR Staff it is in need of upgrades. The Mushroom Lot Access
trail was also identified by the mountain biking and trail building focus group as requiring maintenance.

Apparently, the Dales connector needs upgrade also .... which it doesn't. So not sure how real the recommendation to 'upgrade' the rest of Dale is then.


 Last edited by: TheWasp on June 10, 2021, 2:49 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
June 10, 2021, 2:57 p.m.
Posts: 69
Joined: May 11, 2017

Posted by: mammal

Posted by: taprider

Also  they intend to make middle/lower Dales more like Upper Dales, which makes me sad...

That would be far beyond sad, in fact, down right tragic. That section of trail is my hardtail jank-happy place.

This is very concerning. The revised upper section is by far the worst section of trail on the north shore. 

Dales should have legacy / heritage style protection to keep the way it has been since the birth of the shore - along with c-buster and severed. I can see dumbing down those types of staples on the shore will backfire in spectacular fashion.

June 10, 2021, 3:12 p.m.
Posts: 254
Joined: March 14, 2017

Upper Dales is how not to build or maintain a trail....  the flat rocky corners are downright treacherous at speed.  They should have fixed up the upper part and the tax payers would have been way better off.  Epic fail on Metro and Joyride.

#nodignoride

June 10, 2021, 3:25 p.m.
Posts: 30
Joined: Oct. 25, 2009

Posted by: LoamtoHome

Upper Dales is how not to build or maintain a trail.... the flat rocky corners are downright treacherous at speed. They should have fixed up the upper part and the tax payers would have been way better off. Epic fail on Metro and Joyride.

I'm glad it's not just me. I could never get to grips with that trail, the berms don't seem to do what berms are supposed to do so I find myself just sitting down and not bothering until Dales proper starts. Maybe a bit of bike-parkesque trail isn't a bad idea for diversity but that one just doesn't work on any level IMO.


 Last edited by: bingobus on June 10, 2021, 3:26 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
June 10, 2021, 3:29 p.m.
Posts: 157
Joined: April 26, 2004

Posted by: mudhoney
What's your source on Metro making middle and lower Dale's more like upper?

http://subscription.metrovancouver.org/sites/watershedandlscr/SitePages/Home.aspx?jg=00bf1491-167f-41d7-b4cd-a18a0c8af8aa&eg=0ec8f57c-a3e5-46dd-a403-3c3fdf72db40&lg=c7e21aba-7d7c-4141-869e-274dbb110629&ltp=c

June 10, 2021, 4:17 p.m.
Posts: 1188
Joined: May 4, 2006

What's your source on Metro making middle and lower Dale's more like upper?

If you received today's email from NSMBA, it included a link to the 242* page PDF report and its mentioned in there. Quiet day in work so I skimmed all 242 pages.

Also mentioned that the want to close off the Enquist Route (Pinch Flat Alley) above the CBC exit to discourage access in that area yet the image above clearly shows a climbing trail up to the top of CBC (which would be nice).

The other items of note where "upgrades" to Cabin and Neds but, luckily, they are lower priority than CBC, which is one of their top priority items, and the pace at which Metro Van moves means I'll likely be far too old to ride anymore but the time they are landscaped.

*I guess the consultants got paid based on volume of output 🙄

Someother useful info about a "hiking only" area


 Last edited by: SixZeroSixOne on June 10, 2021, 4:34 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
June 10, 2021, 6:08 p.m.
Posts: 398
Joined: July 8, 2005

Posted by: SixZeroSixOne

What's your source on Metro making middle and lower Dale's more like upper?

If you received today's email from NSMBA, it included a link to the 242* page PDF report and its mentioned in there. Quiet day in work so I skimmed all 242 pages.

Also mentioned that the want to close off the Enquist Route (Pinch Flat Alley) above the CBC exit to discourage access in that area yet the image above clearly shows a climbing trail up to the top of CBC (which would be nice).

The other items of note where "upgrades" to Cabin and Neds but, luckily, they are lower priority than CBC, which is one of their top priority items, and the pace at which Metro Van moves means I'll likely be far too old to ride anymore but the time they are landscaped.

*I guess the consultants got paid based on volume of output 🙄

Someother useful info about a "hiking only" area

Ah yes, the strategic plan from 2018... this is "old news"... and where Metro chose to ignore the online submissions to the public consultation because respondents were primarily mountain bikers (as told to NSMBA reps in a meeting with Metro) and most of the in person surveys were set up at trailheads that mountain bikers don't use as much, thus failing to capture input from mountain bikers that access the trail network from other trailheads.

So far they haven't made any move to alter Dale's; or at least, as the currently permitted builder on it, I haven't heard any more recent plans (but Metro is notoriously bad at communicating, and the NSMBA is also slow in passing along information to builders). There was a tentative plan once to reroute the section that's close to the creek (to higher elevation and farther from the creek), but it's only ever been talk.

Edit to add - changes to Cabin/TNT will probably come sooner. NSMBA is involved in this process, at lease somewhat. What's also frustrating is that rather than hire/work with NSMBA, Metro insists on hiring other non-local contractors (e.g. IMBA Canada was hired to consult on Cabin/TNT)


 Last edited by: mudhoney on June 10, 2021, 6:11 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
June 10, 2021, 6:26 p.m.
Posts: 157
Joined: April 26, 2004

This is what I saw in the 2018 plan

"Dale’s Trail Improvements:
Consider upgrading lower sections to flow better with
section 1 of Dale’s to provide a cohesive user experience
from top to bottom."

June 10, 2021, 6:34 p.m.
Posts: 18067
Joined: Oct. 28, 2003

If you have any questions, please email lscr@metrovancouver.org

Don't miss this crucial part of the email today...


 Last edited by: heckler on June 10, 2021, 6:36 p.m., edited 3 times in total.
Reason: darn, link direct to email doesn't work.

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