Thoughts? Where will the Shore be in 2027 ?
Key point for me here. So many Land Managers to deal with, progress is slow ........
NSMBA Strategic Plan
Mostly curious about the Seymour trails plan (was it DNV or Metro? Not Parks pretty sure, can't remember) developments. Haven't heard anything since the public consultation session with council that was webcast.
anything that will happen will be slower than a herd of snails traveling through peanut butter. It took 5 years to get that 30 second new trail in Squamish put in.....
I feel that moving forward the single most important factor is to consider the cohesiveness of the entire trail network before adding new trails or making significant changes. We have to consider not only the the type of trails that get put in but how they interact with each other and potential for any future new trails.
Posted by: syncro
I feel that moving forward the single most important factor is to consider the cohesiveness of the entire trail network before adding new trails or making significant changes. We have to consider not only the the type of trails that get put in but how they interact with each other and potential for any future new trails.
As an example, I have always found that Expresso a weird case. Its (argubably) the most popular trail, and the NSMBA puts lots of work into it. The logical way to ride it is to go up from the Fromme Parking lot along the road, then drop in. But it spits you out on Baden Powell, and the ride back to the parking lot is very different than Expresso. I think for many newer or intermediate riders, it ultimately ends up being a pretty poor experience after the flow fest on Expresso. Not sure what the solution is; I personally love that section of Baden Powell and would be sad to see it get buffed out. But I do think its illustrative of a incohesive portion of the trail network.
Just curious what other examples you (or anyone else) might have?
Last edited by: Coiler on July 6, 2022, 1:42 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
But it spits you out on Baden Powell, and the ride back to the parking lot is very different than Expresso. I think for many newer or intermediate riders, it ultimately ends up being a pretty poor experience after the flow fest on Expresso. Not sure what the solution is; I personally love that section of Baden Powell and would be sad to see it get buffed out. But I do think its illustrative of a incohesive portion of the trail network.
The 2008 Fromme Trail Classification Plan called for a climb trail from bottom of Espresso to second switch back, just above Van Tan. But seems the No Quarter climb trail got built instead
The last thing fromme needs is more reason for people to use the (very often overcrowded) lot.
The natural way to ride expresso is to continue down to Pennzoil/lower digger, etc.
If anything a spur from no quarter that comes out closer to the top of expresso would make more sense as a more beginner/intermediate lap option. As it is you burn a lot of elevation down mountain highway, so it only makes sense to go up to 7th, then hit expresso.
As far as the "plan" goes, it reads more like a wish list than a plan to me, but I know managing trails on the shore ain't easy.
There's been a lot of work done on BP by Sean B between Expresso and Mtn Hwy in the past few years. It buffed out some gnarly sections and made it pretty rideable for intermediate riders. Maybe not beginners but I don't think the point is to make everything perfectly coherent/rideable for beginners. If we did that the nature of the shore would shift dramatically. Also if you are beginner and hitting Expresso you're doing ok!
For beginners there are great options in lower sections of Fromme like Bobsled/griffens/roadside/king of shore/cc/kirkford and off No quarter there's Lower expresso/lower digger/lower dreamweaver/penzoil.
As someone who just started riding 8 years ago I welcomed the challenges on BP and just walked what I didn't want to ride.
Posted by: Kenny
If anything a spur from no quarter that comes out closer to the top of expresso would make more sense as a more beginner/intermediate lap option. As it is you burn a lot of elevation down mountain highway, so it only makes sense to go up to 7th, then hit expresso.
brapping across the air supply skidder road isn't a bad way to eliminate some of that wasted vertical. though i can't imagine there's much beginner traffic on NQ to start with.
Posted by: Coiler
As an example, I have always found that Expresso a weird case. Its (argubably) the most popular trail, and the NSMBA puts lots of work into it. The logical way to ride it is to go up from the Fromme Parking lot along the road, then drop in. But it spits you out on Baden Powell, and the ride back to the parking lot is very different than Expresso. I think for many newer or intermediate riders, it ultimately ends up being a pretty poor experience after the flow fest on Expresso. Not sure what the solution is; I personally love that section of Baden Powell and would be sad to see it get buffed out. But I do think its illustrative of a incohesive portion of the trail network.
Just curious what other examples you (or anyone else) might have?
I'm thinking about two things, trail accessibility throughout the trail network and how future expansion affects that accessibility. So I guess you could just one thing - accessibility. The unfortunate thing about the North Shore is that it's primarily fall line riding and trails haven't really been cut in with much consideration of how they affect other trails. It seems the network was primarily built on the thinking that Trail A goes straight down here so we'll move over a bit and cut in a new Trail B over here that basically parallels it. There are other factors too such as the resource commitments to build a new trail and on Fromme in particular you can see how the road up affects trail layout, but all in all I don't get the impression that much if any thought has been given to how the trails interact with each other. That has changed a bit over the past few years with things like No Quarter on Fromme and Penny Lane & GSM on Seymour, but there are still plenty of holes to fill, both for going up and coming down. The other thing that has changed is the increased involvement of the various land managers and that has made it impossible in some circumstances to look at the network as a whole entity as opposed to separate little chunks.
As Kenny pointed out, distributed parking is important, and a big part of making that work is having routes that allow you to ride from one side of the mountain and back. Judicious use of connector trails, some for climbing and other for descending, could radically change the riding options. It's not always possible, but plenty of options exist. And as parking has always been an issue, it makes sense to put some energy into a project that not only improves the trail network but also take pressure off parking issues.
These are just a few thoughts and by no way represent exact trail alignment; yellow for up and blue for down.
Last edited by: syncro on July 9, 2022, 12:24 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
IMHO the parking lot is the worst starting point for most Fromme rides (except Bobsled laps with your kids maybe) but many people probably park there by default because it's The Fromme Parking Lot.
I never use the lot, I either park on Braemar (or Princess Park) or somewhere near the End of the Line store (or Kilmer Park). From Braemer area I go up No Quarter or I take Dempsey Connector then over to Mountain View Park. From End of the Line I go straight up to Mountain View Park. I rarely ride out on BP, I usually drop further down to Braemar and if my car is near End of the Line I take Dempsey Connector or Road back.
The above works well for an Expresso lap as well. For shorter beginner-friendly rides (or just for a quick flow rip) starting from Braemar up NQ you can do laps of Lower Expresso, Penzoil, Lower Digger, and Lower Dreamweaver.
So many trails and so many possibilities to combine into good loops. Personally I don't see the need for more connector trails on Fromme. The trail density is already pretty high. I'd just like to see Dempsey Connector get a decent official exit at its eastern end.
^^^
Not everyone has the fitness or the desire to do the No Quarter climb, so Mtn Highway starting at the parking lot is the route up. That's why a second, more melow climb from the Demsey/Braemar area would be a benefit.
Posted by: syncro
^^^
Not everyone has the fitness or the desire to do the No Quarter climb, so Mtn Highway starting at the parking lot is the route up. That's why a second, more melow climb from the Demsey/Braemar area would be a benefit.
That's why I mentioned taking Dempsey Connector and hopping over to Mountain View Park where you can climb up Griffen and King of the Shore. All intermediate trails. Dempsey Connector just needs an nice official exit at the eastern end to replace the unsanctioned creekbed-like trail ending at the haunted house for those who don't want to drop down Lower Skull.
Don't reply "not everyone has the fitness or the desire to ride Dempsey Connector to Mountain View Park and climb up Griffen and King of the Shore". Like I also wrote, lots of quick lap options from Braemer if someone doesn't want to ride all the way up.
That's pretty presumptive on your part and it ignores getting to the mid and upper level trails. This also isn't about what you or I like to ride, it's about creating more options across the network for all riders. That's part of being cohesive, so that sone people aren't stuck with limited options or to certain sections of the mountain. It also helps to spread traffic out.
Riding on Fromme and Seymour radically changed with the introduction of NQ and PL/GSM. We could benefit from more of that.
Posted by: syncro
^^^
Not everyone has the fitness or the desire to do the No Quarter climb, so Mtn Highway starting at the parking lot is the route up. That's why a second, more melow climb from the Demsey/Braemar area would be a benefit.
No quarter keeps getting more civilized all the some though. It's much more approachable than it was a few years ago.
If it branched eastward where Dyer maker/root wall starts, or maybe before the executioner section (which is a section that can be a bit of a surprise to newer riders as well) I think it could form a pretty great lower commitment alternative.
I only use the lot when I'm with my nine year old. Nothing better than a couple bobsled laps for young kids or absolute beginners.
I get a kick out of how many ebikers park there, and even wait in line to get a spot. Really? I mean I hope by the time I'm lazy and crippled enough to desire/need an ebike I'll pick another sport, but that is just fuckin dumb. Park down at the school, what difference does it make? That Griffin club must be nothing on an ebike.
I think it goes to show that people just go to the fromme parking lot to ride fromme. Because that's there you park. Just don't know any better. And I guess that's one of the challenges of trail systems in the city. If this was Williams Lake or something people are probably less dependent on being spoon fed where to recreate via Instagram or whatever and more prone to investigate the options.
Last edited by: Kenny on July 7, 2022, 3:49 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
Forum jump:
