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Multi use vs bikes only

Nov. 27, 2018, 9:21 a.m.
Posts: 986
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

^^^

Yeah those little 4" placards don't really cut it.

It would be great to see all the land managers get on board with a co-ordinated signage program. Have one style of sign with signs that show the immediate trail and some of the surrounding area and linking trails as well as large signs that show the entire trail network at major access points such as the parking lots and distribution points.  There used to be a great NSMBA signboard at the start of Corkscrew that was a full map of Seymour and was about 4ft wide by 3ft high. I'm pretty sure it was Sharon who put together that initial signage project. Unfortunately, the LSCR saw it in the all-being and all-knowing great fountain of knowledge to knock it down and replace it with signage that only showed the immediate trail, not the network. Considering that Corkscrew is a major access point for much of Seymour it makes a ton of sense to have a signboard there, even more to have one at the picnic area parking lot.

Nov. 27, 2018, 12:06 p.m.
Posts: 180
Joined: April 15, 2017

It'd be worth it to email or call the relevant land managers with these thoughts, because you can bet that anyone who wants to go for a hike and is easily pissed off by (legitimate) interactions with other users will email/call their local councils to complain. Get yours in and balance the viewpoints - especially when you consider what happened with the CMHC recently.
It's around the same amount of effort to do that as it is to post here.

Nov. 27, 2018, 1:19 p.m.
Posts: 19
Joined: June 9, 2017

There's.... a lot to unpack in this thread. 

But a couple of points stand out.

Yes, the NSMBA will be working on signage on CMHC ground. I lol'd a little bit at the reference to it being an "opportunity" - its going to take a very significant amount of work, so its less "opportunity" more "significant task" that will take volunteers, or money, or both. I'm hoping it'll maybe be done in 2019. We're currently talking to a couple of different people about taking on parts of the project, but there's a lot to it. Like, a lot a lot. Signage standards for all the land mangers on Seymour currently exist, and yes, they're all different. Don't expect that to change, really. DNV is re-doing signage on Fromme, in theory I'd assume they'll use the same standards for Seymour, but I wouldn't guarantee it. The LSCR does.... what the LSCR does. They also have signage standards - and especially with both the DNV and LSCR, the NSMBA is merely one point of input to the land manager on this, they can do what they want. RSTBC (who manages CMHC land on Seymour) looks to the NSMBA a bit more for this. Basically they're capacity limited managing everything from landslides on the Kettle Valley Railtrail to 4x4 trails to backcountry horse trails in Prince George, so signage gets put on the NSMBA, really. 

Currently, everything on Seymour is multi-use, and really its all multi-directional; so while it may not be the "best" idea to go hiking up Boogie Nights, there's nothing that says you can't. The point of additional signage will be to set user expectations more than anything. Most trail users will follow signs, but not all.

As with ALL trail interactions, remember you're an ambassador for mountain biking at all times. If you see someone hiking up the Piledriver, point out that it might not be a great idea, and get yelled at... take the high road, fill the other party in on facts (make sure you KNOW the facts, too) or just disengage. Brocklanders nailed it "Being nice and not condescending is for sure the best approach."

I'd love to live in a world where all trails are multi-use and multi-directional, where everyone is always aware there may be other trail users coming the other way. But that's unfortunately not the world we live in. Directional trails will be looked at as a potential tool to reduce user conflict and set user expectations during signage (remember when I said it was a bigger project than just puttin' some signs on 4x4 posts? Who sets the direction of trails? What users are allowed where? Has anyone measured the trails and all features/TTFs to ensure they conform to the signed difficulty rating?).

We will work to replace some of the kiosk maps, yes. Again, they're all on different land managers land, so its not incredibly simple. And it requires GIS, cartography, and graphic design skills as well as ensuring the legalese is up to snuff. RSTBC signage standards (for CMHC land) include the option for minimaps. We'll try to include these as much as possible, but its yet another time consuming task to add to the list. As I mentioned on Andrew's Black Friday article - we're generally not short on ideas. If something seems to make a ton of sense, but isn't happening, odds are there's a reason for it.

Its worth clarifying as well - mountain bikers weren't banned from CMHC lands, all recreational users were. Kudos to our community of trail users and recreationists for working together, engaging politicians, and getting sh*t to happen and convince CMHC this was not the best course of action! 

I like DanL's inclusion of the "legitimate". Given the asymmetry of user interaction  between foot traffic and bikers (ie, encountering a mountain biker is generally more disruptive to a hiker than the other way around), its on the mountain bike community to be extra nice. Access is a privilege, not a right. You can bet all your $$$ that hikers are emailing land managers more often than mountain bikers. Its my dead horse to floss - if you appreciate having mountain bike trails, or would like more mtb primary (or only) trails, those emails count. If you appreciate the work the NSMBA does, those emails count. There's all of the appropriate contacts you need here. I tend to only check in here when someone emails me or messages directly about a thread - but you're always welcome to shoot me a note and I can help direct your email/comments. cooper@nsmba.ca

Nov. 27, 2018, 3 p.m.
Posts: 405
Joined: Jan. 31, 2005

I preferred this conversation when I just got to flap my gums and not have to follow through or whatever with all these details.

Nov. 27, 2018, 3:18 p.m.
Posts: 1124
Joined: Sept. 30, 2006

Im wondering how one goes about flossing a dead horse.....

Nov. 27, 2018, 4:13 p.m.
Posts: 986
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

opportunity in the sense of here's an issue that's been brought to light, maybe it's possible to use that as a reason to make things better.

Nov. 29, 2018, 1:16 p.m.
Posts: 1392
Joined: July 11, 2014

Posted by: cooperquinn

There's.... a lot to unpack in this thread. 

But a couple of points stand out.

Yes, the NSMBA will be working on signage on CMHC ground. I lol'd a little bit at the reference to it being an "opportunity" - its going to take a very significant amount of work, so its less "opportunity" more "significant task" that will take volunteers, or money, or both. I'm hoping it'll maybe be done in 2019. We're currently talking to a couple of different people about taking on parts of the project, but there's a lot to it. Like, a lot a lot. Signage standards for all the land mangers on Seymour currently exist, and yes, they're all different. Don't expect that to change, really. DNV is re-doing signage on Fromme, in theory I'd assume they'll use the same standards for Seymour, but I wouldn't guarantee it. The LSCR does.... what the LSCR does. They also have signage standards - and especially with both the DNV and LSCR, the NSMBA is merely one point of input to the land manager on this, they can do what they want. RSTBC (who manages CMHC land on Seymour) looks to the NSMBA a bit more for this. Basically they're capacity limited managing everything from landslides on the Kettle Valley Railtrail to 4x4 trails to backcountry horse trails in Prince George, so signage gets put on the NSMBA, really. 

Currently, everything on Seymour is multi-use, and really its all multi-directional; so while it may not be the "best" idea to go hiking up Boogie Nights, there's nothing that says you can't. The point of additional signage will be to set user expectations more than anything. Most trail users will follow signs, but not all.

As with ALL trail interactions, remember you're an ambassador for mountain biking at all times. If you see someone hiking up the Piledriver, point out that it might not be a great idea, and get yelled at... take the high road, fill the other party in on facts (make sure you KNOW the facts, too) or just disengage. Brocklanders nailed it "Being nice and not condescending is for sure the best approach."

I'd love to live in a world where all trails are multi-use and multi-directional, where everyone is always aware there may be other trail users coming the other way. But that's unfortunately not the world we live in. Directional trails will be looked at as a potential tool to reduce user conflict and set user expectations during signage (remember when I said it was a bigger project than just puttin' some signs on 4x4 posts? Who sets the direction of trails? What users are allowed where? Has anyone measured the trails and all features/TTFs to ensure they conform to the signed difficulty rating?).

We will work to replace some of the kiosk maps, yes. Again, they're all on different land managers land, so its not incredibly simple. And it requires GIS, cartography, and graphic design skills as well as ensuring the legalese is up to snuff. RSTBC signage standards (for CMHC land) include the option for minimaps. We'll try to include these as much as possible, but its yet another time consuming task to add to the list. As I mentioned on Andrew's Black Friday article - we're generally not short on ideas. If something seems to make a ton of sense, but isn't happening, odds are there's a reason for it.

Its worth clarifying as well - mountain bikers weren't banned from CMHC lands, all recreational users were. Kudos to our community of trail users and recreationists for working together, engaging politicians, and getting sh*t to happen and convince CMHC this was not the best course of action! 

I like DanL's inclusion of the "legitimate". Given the asymmetry of user interaction  between foot traffic and bikers (ie, encountering a mountain biker is generally more disruptive to a hiker than the other way around), its on the mountain bike community to be extra nice. Access is a privilege, not a right. You can bet all your $$$ that hikers are emailing land managers more often than mountain bikers. Its my dead horse to floss - if you appreciate having mountain bike trails, or would like more mtb primary (or only) trails, those emails count. If you appreciate the work the NSMBA does, those emails count. There's all of the appropriate contacts you need here. I tend to only check in here when someone emails me or messages directly about a thread - but you're always welcome to shoot me a note and I can help direct your email/comments. cooper@nsmba.ca

Thanks for the reminder about the value of communication to the land managers. Will send off some notes from the perspective of an MTBer family about multi-use trails and mitigating risk/negative interactions through signage. I think all such emails should also include positive words about the value of mountain biking to physical and mental health of families in the lower mainland, always good to reinforce that message and continue to work away at misconceptions of who mountain bikers are.

Nov. 30, 2018, 12:46 p.m.
Posts: 77
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Why isn't there some more hiking only trails on Seymour? Oh wait there is that one trail...likely running 4 feet deep in water right now. Doesn't the LSCR manage the Badden from Bridle up to the Power Lines?

Nov. 30, 2018, 4:15 p.m.
Posts: 34258
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

Posted by: earleb

Why isn't there some more hiking only trails on Seymour?

There are, but mountain bikers ride then too.

Dec. 3, 2018, 11:48 a.m.
Posts: 19
Joined: June 9, 2017

That section on BP is only "hiking only" on Trailforks, as far as I'm aware. FWIW, it would suck to ride, though. There are many hiking only trails on the Shore - there are almost zero biking only. 

Metro LSCR (as differentiated from Metro Parks) has traditionally done some maintenance on that section, and is the entity responsible for helicoptering in the new boardwalk sections this year. It is not actually on Metro Vancouver lands, its on CMHC.

And @grambo - thanks! Positive notes reinforcement in stuff like that is great.

And @syncro - yeah, I follow. And you're not wrong about opportunity. I just wanted to make the point that its not as easy as it may seem to some. There's often a lot of unseen heavy lifting and time involved in seemingly simple tasks.


 Last edited by: cooperquinn on Dec. 3, 2018, 11:48 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Dec. 3, 2018, 4:25 p.m.
Posts: 986
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: cooperquinn

There's often a lot of unseen heavy lifting and time involved in seemingly simple tasks.

for sure . trying to get 3-4 different organizations to come together and agree on something is never an easy thing to do.

Dec. 3, 2018, 10:54 p.m.
Posts: 651
Joined: Nov. 18, 2015

Improved signage on Seymour is a good idea for more reasons than just preventing collisions between hikers and bikers.

Shortly after I moved here and before I got to know the trails, I and my son (and dog) were somewhat lost in 3degree pouring rain less than 30minutes before sunset. We weren't lost in the sense of North Shore Rescue, but we were at the end of our ride, really tired, darkness was on its way quickly and we were frozen, in terrible visibility and got turned around in the wrong direction. We figured it out just in time to get out, but better signs are one of the things that could have prevented it. We were just one additional wrong turn away from being in a mess and we weren't even far in the woods!

Jan. 2, 2019, 4:07 p.m.
Posts: 98
Joined: Oct. 17, 2012

I don't get why there is such a controversy around making some trails mountain bike only and others Hiking only. It's the only logical solution. The Mtb communtity puts in the man hours on the majority of the the trails on the shore so it would make sense to keep them strictly for biking for safety reasons. 

Literally about 80% of the time I ride sanctioned trails I run into hikers. I'm always polite but most of the time it scares the fuck out of me and the other party. Last summer I was attacked by a guys dog on skull and another time came off a skinny on ladies because I had 2 joggers coming straight at me running on the same feature. And this weekend we bumped into a family hiking up John Deer.

I understand you want to be inclusive of everyone but it just seems insane to me having people ripping downhill with hikers climbing up the same trails that are built for bikes...

Jan. 2, 2019, 8:34 p.m.
Posts: 1050
Joined: May 4, 2006

Not quite the same topic but....

One of my fears is hooning* down something like John Deere or Boogie Nights only to be met by some clown riding UP. Granted, this isn't likely at the moment but as eBikes become more capable...

(I had this type of incident last week on the fast section of Bottletop)

So, personally, I'm all in favor one way trails.

* Otherwise known as riding the trail as it's designed to be ridden

Jan. 2, 2019, 8:53 p.m.
Posts: 986
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: SixZeroSixOne

Not quite the same topic but....

One of my fears is hooning* down something like John Deere or Boogie Nights only to be met by some clown riding UP. Granted, this isn't likely at the moment but as eBikes become more capable...

(I had this type of incident last week on the fast section of Bottletop)

So, personally, I'm all in favor one way trails.

* Otherwise known as riding the trail as it's designed to be ridden

It seems to be more of an issue in some areas than others - sfu is definitely a bit of a hot spot for up/down issues. One of the key things to remember tho is that most trails out there are considered multi-use and multi-directional so there is a fair bit of onus on the downhill rider to be riding in enough control so they can avoid people coming the opposite direction. I find usually though that when you're on the gas downhill you're making enough noise that people will hear you coming - unless of course they have earbuds in for music which imo is not a smart play if you've got you're heading up a trail than is likely to have downhill traffic.

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