Moab BLM Bans E-Bikes

[QUOTE=cerealkilla';2848622]… individuals can say no, but the marketers, manufacturers, and retailers prey on the stupid and the weak, and the rest of us get to clean up the mess.

…your immediately obsolete software and movie formats, and all the other ignorant wasteful sh*T that serves some pretend purpose to enhance our lives, but really functions to make a few people richer at the expense of others.[/QUOTE]

Hate to say it, if you believe that, time for you to quit mountain biking. The new components, new lighting systems, 26" vs 29er vs 650b, new types of tires, frame materials, countless drivetrain variations, shocks, forks, I could go on.

If you really and truly are against consumerism, either time to go fully cro-mo ridged or quit. You can't give a pass to something you enjoy and dump on everyone else for what they enjoy. That's just self centred.

You're so right Myk. All biking is bad, and anyone who consumes anything is guilty of being a hypocrite, oooorrrrrr maybe you failed to focus in on the one point that really mattered and chose one little snippet to make your point seem valid…..note, the role of consumerism in biking is acknowledged (you criticize what I already pointed out….fail). You skip over the point about the self-powered nature of biking mattering for something, despite the consumerism, that part is what I emphasized. If you're going to pipe up, at least read the post you're quoting in its entirety. Editing other people's words to make your own argument stronger is douchey.

[QUOTE=cerealkilla';2848677]You're so right Myk. All biking is bad, and anyone who consumes anything is guilty of being a hypocrite…

You misinterpreted my point. I don't think that any cycling is bad. Time outside, exercising, with friends or family… cam't be beat.

All I'm saying is that biking is just as guilty of the mass consumerism, upgrades, newer [HTML_REMOVED] better, etc… as anything else. You can't give it a free pass because it is human powered. I love being on my bike but understand that it is no different from any other industry, read any cycling magazine, look at the ads.

I also think that all of the anti-electric bike rageing sounds just like the anti-mtb'ers did ten years ago. Pretty shrill with not a lot of dialogue. Ever talk to someone on an e-bike and ask them why they're using one? Ever talk to the old guy with a new hip and is thrilled to get back on a bike and ride up from Riverside?

I'll ask this… are electric bikes any less legitimate than taking a lift in the terrain park or shuttling up Seymour? I'm not advocating for e-bikes, just saying that dialogue is better than yelling.

So let's say e bikes become acceptable for non motorized trails because it allows them that are not able to or willing to, to climb stuff. How will manufacturers convince us to replace our old e- bike? A more better more powerful one. Boom we reinvented motorcycles. I have no doubt that this will happen. On the road, there are restriction forced by laws. Already people get around the laws. There are electric scooters that have pedals now that are for all intents and purposes small slow electric scooters. But because they have cranks and pedals, no licence, insurance or motorcycle helmet. And often enough the cranks are cut off by owners. There are no such restrictions for off highway vehicles as far as I know.

[QUOTE=Myk;2848719 Ever talk to someone on an e-bike and ask them why they're using one? Ever talk to the old guy with a new hip and is thrilled to get back on a bike and ride up from Riverside?
.[/QUOTE]

That demographic will be less than 1% of the people using e-bikes on the trails. The other 99% will be asshats tearing up the trails.

That demographic will be less than 1% of the people using e-bikes on the trails. The other 99% will be asshats tearing up the trails.

Can't decide which red herring of "rational debate" I dislike more:

1) The notion that E-Motorized-Offroad-Bicycles have anything to do with enabling people who have any barrier to mountain biking other than laziness. Create a permit system to cover the less than 1% of sales this will represent. Done.

2) That shuttling in any way is a comparable to the concerns most people have with these bikes. Does anyone really think the concerns of trail damage are for trails that are currently armored to all hell or beaten to shit by shuttling? The concern is for trails with a massive barrier to entry now that will look like the trails above if they are shuttled.

.

I agree with Cam that this needs to be a rational discussion.

I do think it is worth noting that every, North Shore trail builder I have heard speak on the subject is saying: "please not on trails I work on."

I do think it is worth noting that everyone I have seen asking for "more data" can't//won't tell me exactly what information they are looking for or how this will impact their position.

D

So the important question I have ,
Who has the right of way the e bike climbing expresso , or the e bike descending?

I do think it is worth noting that everyone I have seen asking for "more data" can't//won't tell me exactly what information they are looking for or how this will impact their position.

D

It would be interesting to see what damage an electric assist bikes does on a steep climb under a moderately skilled rider. The sort of climb that has you sitting right on the nose of the saddle while almost licking the stem in order to try and keep traction and the front end down.

It's certainly possible that the e-assist bike might actually be better as the rider can accelerate before it gets steep and use the speed / momentum to just power up without losing traction or balance. They could of course just flip the rider off the back of the bike! We don't really know at this point, which is why I think Cam is being unduly slated for wanting to find out.

Anyway, as someone who hiked up parts of Pink Starfish in the snow with my hardtail today, I probably won't be buying one any time soon :D

This industry person would happily see them all burn in hell to be honest. If we start selling them (and I don't know of any plans to) then we'll have to get a hoist in order to get the fecking things in a workstand. I don't think it's wrong to know your enemy though.

What do the builders/maintainers have to say?

And that is the debate ender, as far as I'm concerned.

What do the builders/maintainers have to say?

under limited circumstances i'm ok with them.

under limited circumstances i'm ok with them.

Sorry, just to re-cap. From various threads I note:

1) You want to have the choice to ride them on trails when you are old ("while [Drew] may be okay with giving up on riding when you're not longer able, what gives [Drew] the right to make that decision for someone else?")

2) You want to be able to use them to take a weaker rider on longer rides with you (I would have previously guessed you to be more the "earn your stripes" kind of guy vs. the instant gratification sort… But what do I know?).

What other circumstances were on your list?

Cheers,

D

Sorry, just to re-cap. From various threads I note:

1) You want to have the choice to ride them on trails when you are old ("while [Drew] may be okay with giving up on riding when you're not longer able, what gives [Drew] the right to make that decision for someone else?")

2) You want to be able to use them to take a weaker rider on longer rides with you (I would have previously guessed you to be more the "earn your stripes" kind of guy vs. the instant gratification sort… But what do I know?).

What other circumstances were on your list?

Cheers,

D

:lol::lol::lol:

i'm not the boogeyman here Drew. instead of of going out of your way to paint me as a villain maybe grab the right info and we can have an intelligent debate about it. right now you're just having an emotional rant. i respect you man, but you're going way overboard here in framing this to try and make me look bad. you know i'm smarter than that and am not going to fall for something so bogus.

If it helps you feel better, i'll re-iterate that at this point i am more inclined to say no to their use on the existing trail network but have no problem with them on existing motorized trails or on trails being built for their use.

pretty self explanatory

So to be clear, I think under clearly defined circumstances of health/fintess related reasons, that ebikes are acceptable on regular trails.

first off, the way you paint your statement is outright laughable. i haven't said me having the choice to ride when i'm old, i've talked about a theoretical older rider or one that may be physically challenged. i've said that i don't feel it's fair for you to take that potential choice away from someone. tbh i'm more concerned that you see a maybe 70yr person using an ebike on old buck or bridle path as a potential menace or threat to mountain biking.

so wrt the above quote, these circustances would need to be defined and established. like i said in other posts in can be seen as a quality of life issue, and enjoyment of physical activity or activities that one enjoys can contribute significantly to both mental and physical health. ps, that's not my own conjured up wisdom, that's science telling us that.

On a personal note, I really like the idea of using an ebike to take a friend out for a ride with me that would not have the fitness to complete the ride. If the bike is used in a respectful manner it's not going to do any more damage to the trail than a regular bike. I do realize it has the potential to do a higher level of damage, but that is entirely dependent on the user.

yeah, i do like that idea, for numerous reasons. plus i feel safe about it because i'm not going to take some newbie out to shred the trails. does that danger exist for say another user taking a friend out? maybe. so like i said in my first fb quote and as i've said on here i'm more inclined to not have these things on the local trails and instead maybe establish some new trails for these users.

i have to ask, when did it become not okay to pnder the possibilites of something?

…

I think you're being a bit dramatic Mark. No one is trying to paint you as a "villain", just a selfish contrarion.

If there is a "villain" in this story it's an industry that slides a few dollars to advocacy and trail maintenance, stamps their branding on these efforts, and then - en mass - races to release e-motorized-off-road-bikes so they can make a few bucks (on the backs of the volunteer trail associations they purport to support ).

If that all seems too "which side are you on", or "you're with us or against us" well… tough cookie. Instead of highlighting all the little grey nuances of where these motorized bikes might be okay, why don't we lay it down in black-and-white first, have the land owners clarify their position, get the signage and education out there, and then we can look at specific situations or trails where maybe they aren't such a big deal?